Does God only impute righteousness to us, or does He also impart it?

[Arsenios]

No one can attain heaven by obedience to the law.

If you are not an Orthodox Jew, then the Law of Moses is not being known by you...

Obedience to Christ is essential, indeed is Life, to a Christian...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

When nitty comes to gritty, I don't love God for cause.

I sure do...

A lot of us do...

er... Most of us do...

Maybe all of us do...

Mary Magdeline sure did...

I mean, God IS the Cause...

He loved us first, remember?

He loved YOU first...

Remember?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

please read what John has to say.

1John1:8-10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us

1Jnohn 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It is important to affirm both scriptures in the same Epistle...

How do you reconcile these two, 1:8 and 3:9 in this Epistle of John?

Arsenios

 

[Tolworth John]

1Jnohn 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It is important to affirm both scriptures in the same Epistle...

How do you reconcile these two, 1:8 and 3:9 in this Epistle of John?

Arsenios

Very simply 1 john3 talks about us being children of God not children of the devil and he talks about us, who are born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning.
John knows we will fail that is why he writes about God's faithfullness in forgiving us.

Lets be practical. Do you commit sin? If you do are you a Christian?
Do you claim not to sin?
If you do so claim how can you be a Christian when John is saying that those who claim not to sin do not have the truth (Jesus) in them?

How do you answer these apparent contradictions?
Other than how I have answered.

 

[Arsenios]

Very simply 1 john3 talks about us being children of God not children of the devil and he talks about us, who are born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning.
John knows we will fail that is why he writes about God's faithfullness in forgiving us.

Lets be practical. Do you commit sin? If you do are you a Christian?
Do you claim not to sin?
If you do so claim how can you be a Christian when John is saying that those who claim not to sin do not have the truth (Jesus) in them?

How do you answer these apparent contradictions?
Other than how I have answered.

The first chapter is an instruction of the Leaven of the Pharisee, which is hypocrisy...
He repeats to us how: "IF you are SAYING this, but instead are DOING something else, you do not have the truth... He is not saying you WILL sin, for instance, but that IF you sin, you are to confess and repent and therein will you find reconciliation... And it goes on to say that those born of God CANNOT BE SINNING... Not that they cannot commit sin, but that they cannot be sinning...

Simply translate the present tenses in John in the English ongoing present tense - eg Instead of "cannot sin" translate "cannot be sinning"... Do this consistently, and this Epistle washes cleanly... A person born of God CAN sin, but he or she cannot survive long if he or she returns to the vomit of sin and abides there... That is death, and such who do so, are fit only for burning... Being born of God is a One Way Path... And in that Path, we are not condemned to sin and repent, as you seem to think, nor are we blessed to not sin ever because we are magically somehow immune from ever committing a sin, but the very tense of the verb regarding our doing a sin is one that is, if I remember it aright, a tense that is hardly ever found in the Bible - I think it is Optative... Below, it is "If any man sin..." in the KJV...

1Jn 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you,
that ye sin not.
And if any man sin,
we have an advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ the Righteous:

Let me write the tenses in the ongoing present where needed...

My little children, I am writing these things to you (present)
In order that ye should not sin (Aorist subjunctive)
And if ever anyone should sin (Aorist subjunctive)
We are having an advocate with the Father, (present)
Jesus Christ the Righteous.

So it IS a subjunctive, and not an optative - I looked it up...
The point of the epistle is that we should not sin, and that the Epistle is to support us in that enterprise, and that it is not certain that we will not, but it is certain that we can sin, and that IF we do so, we do have Christ as our Advocate with the Father...

The aorist subjunctive is not the present subjunctive -
eg
If anyone should sin... (as in once)

and not
If anyone should be sinning...(as in a way of ongoing conduct)

It glares in the Greek...
Yet the English conflates them.

So we are to live lives without sin, but if we fall, we are to get back up in confession and repentance and find forgiveness and restitution in Christ...

Arsenios

 

[dreadnought]

If and when we repent of our sin, we no longer practice them. Does that mean we keep the law? No partly because no one does and partly because we're no subject to that covenant. There's no salvation by the law either to get or maintain.

But I don't know that it matters. When we sin, trouble comes into our lives. When we don't sin, we avoid that trouble.

 

[LoveofTruth]

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9

Just a clarification 1 John 3:9 should read

1 John 3 - 9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

The word “commit” sin there is G4160 “poieo” meaning “time make or to do immediately without any delay” it can relate to a single act. . It means as soon as you wilfully knowing do sin or give yourself over to it to do, you are in sin and of the devil. How many times does s man have to murder somebody t be called a murderer? Once, how many times does a man have to commitvadultery to be called an adulterer? Once. The Greek word in 1 John 3:9 is not to “practice sin” as the word “commit” is used in this other case

Romans 1 - 32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

“Commit” here is “prasso” meaning

“a primary verb; to "practise", i.e. perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from 4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication, to execute, accomplish, etc.; specially, to collect (dues), fare (personally):--commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.“

Notice that it differs from G4160 “commit” which refers to A SINGLE ACT.

So the word used in 1 John 3:9 refers to a single act that a person does immediately when they commit or agree in their mind wilfully to do it. It does not mean to “practice sin” as many wrongly teach.

thec reason this is an issue is because when a person who has a wrong doctrine does a single act of sin and another says they are of the devil in doing so. They will cry out “oh no, I can never lose my salvation I do Not “practice “ or do that sin habitually” so I’m ok. This is one of the dangers of the once saved always saved doctrine and you can see how they sneakily try to change “poieo” to “prasso” in 1 John 3:9.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Please read what John says.

1John1:8,If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

The scriptures read,

1 John 1 - 8. If we say that we have no sin, [we all have a sin nature in Adam and all die] we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins,[actual known sins we do in the flesh for him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin this relates to past sins the evil we have knowingly done] he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness[we are then a new creation in Christ cleansed from all unrighteousness as we abide in Christ] . 10. If we say that we have not sinned, [past tense, sins we have done in our fallen nature] we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

It is very simple. And John wrote that epistle that they “sin not” he says clearly

1 John 3 - 6. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.”

As hard as this is for some to understand and to fit into their wrong theology John is very clear.

 

[LoveofTruth]

It is evident that Jesus TRANSFORMED the nature of Adam...

Consider this section And see what Jesus did,

Romans 8 - 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”

 

[LoveofTruth]

"Arsenios, you said ,

“And His Creation, the Blessed Virgin, is His Mother...”

But Learn what this verse means,

Galatians 4 - 26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

And consider,

Mark 3 - 32. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. 33. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? 34. And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 35. For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.”

 

[Marvin Knox]

......................................the reason this is an issue is because when a person who has a wrong doctrine does a single act of sin and another says they are of the devil in doing so. They will cry out “oh no, I can never lose my salvation I do Not “practice “ or do that sin habitually” so I’m ok. This is one of the dangers of the once saved always saved doctrine and you can see how they sneakily try to change “poieo” to “prasso” in 1 John 3:9.

The question posed by the Op was whether God imputes or imparts righteousness.

I said, quite correctly "both".

And - your point to me in your post is what exactly?

Not that it's pertinent to my original post - but I have one particular question once you've answered my query above ---- do you then believe that a Christian is lost lost every time they commit sin - even if it's not ongoing sin.

You seem to be saying that.

By the way - I can't comment on whether those who believe the passage in question has to do with ongoing sin are being "sneaky" or not. - and neither should you unless you know them personally.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The question posed by the Op was whether God imputes or imparts righteousness.

I said, quite correctly "both".

And - your point to me in your post is what exactly?

Hello, I was just rebuking in the strongest way the verse you quoted from another version that said

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9

I believe that to be wrongly translated and it affects how some view sin.

In our discussion here about whether God imputes or imparts His righteousness. i agree that it is both. But if God imparts His righteousness in Christ as we are born again. Then if we abide in Christ can we sin? If we sin as a believer then who is the sin attributed to?. Is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. So when we sin, even a single willful act can we say we are abiding in the light. ?

Now i do believe God gives a space to repent of sin and what sin can do is harden us to the dangerous point where we don't keep the faith and we don't keep coming back to God and abiding in Him. This is dangerous and then a person can depart from God through and evil heart of unbelief ( Hebrews 3:12 )

Not that it's pertinent to my original post - but I have one particular question once you've answered my query above ---- do you then believe that a Christian is lost lost every time they commit sin - even if it's not ongoing sin.

You seem to be saying that.

I simply point put scripture and how we understand them. This is a in-depth study maybe for another post. But 1 John 3:6-10 is a very strong section of scripture. It does affect how some understand being made the righteousness of God or not.

I can ask you when you commit sin are you still of God? John says those who commit sin are of the devil. I know it may shatter many preconceived and taught notions. But what is Johns direction in this serious walk. He says for all to "ABIDE" in Christ. The word "abide", means to remain, or continue in.

By the way - I can't comment on whether those who believe the passage in question has to do with ongoing sin are being "sneaky" or not. - and neither should you unless you know them personally.

I agree here and accept your correction. I should not say they did it sneakily or not. I repent of that.

But if the scripture is the way I quoted it and the word is not "prasso". Then somewhere along the line either men or the devil or who knows how messed that verse up and gave licence for millions to sin and think they are not of the devil. This could in fact be the sneakiness of the devil, men or possibly some misunderstanding and translation error.

But all my discussion is still within the frame of this post. I am pointing out the "righteousness" aspect and the proof that God has imparted or made us the righteousness of God in Christ. If we are made the righteousness of God and walk in unrighteousness are we in the light? John seems to be dealing with this very thing. Yet some would say we are simply imputed righteous and not made righteous in Christ and so when they sin they say they are only imputed not made righteous in their spirit. John says

"7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[royal priest]

I don't think Christians love God because of imparted righteousness. Upon truly examining my love for God I must admit that it really comes from God, Himself. When nitty comes to gritty, I don't love God for cause.

But no man naturally loves God. Anyone without the Spirit of God can't even comprehend the love of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14; Jeremiah 13:23

The only hope the sinner has of doing any good is for God to work the good in and through them.
Ephesians 2:10; Philippians 2:12-14

 

[Arsenios]

Consider this section And see what Jesus did,

Romans 8 - 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”

Thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

1 John 3:9 should read

1 John 3 - 9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

It should read "...is not doing sin...

The word “commit” sin there is G4160 “poieo” meaning “time make or to do immediately without any delay” it can relate to a single act. . It means as soon as you wilfully knowing do sin or give yourself over to it to do, you are in sin and of the devil. How many times does s man have to murder somebody t be called a murderer? Once, how many times does a man have to commitvadultery to be called an adulterer? Once. The Greek word in 1 John 3:9 is not to “practice sin” as the word “commit” is used in this other case

The two primary meanings of poiew are to make or to do...

It is in the present ongoing tense here... Preceded by ou, denying the present ongoing action...

Romans 1 - 32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

It should read "...those practicing such things..."

“Commit” here is “prasso” meaning

“a primary verb; to "practise", i.e. perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from 4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication, to execute, accomplish, etc.; specially, to collect (dues), fare (personally):--commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.“

Notice that it differs from G4160 “commit” which refers to A SINGLE ACT.

Practicing sin and doing sin are simply two ways of saying the same thing...

It is my customary practice to be doing these things, etc...

So the word used in 1 John 3:9 refers to a single act that a person does immediately when they commit or agree in their mind wilfully to do it. It does not mean to “practice sin” as many wrongly teach.

You are simply and emphatically in error here...

It has nothing to do with osas...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

"Arsenios, you said ,

“And His Creation, the Blessed Virgin, is His Mother...”

But Learn what this verse means,

Galatians 4 - 26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

And consider,

Mark 3 - 32. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. 33. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? 34. And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 35. For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.”

Thank-you...

He had two natures, my Dear... One human and one Divine... A human mother without a human father, and a Divine father without a Divine mother... He BECAME flesh, that He should heal our flesh, for by His stripes we are healed...

eg That we who are fallen in a fallen creation should be raised to the Jerusalem above which is free...

Mark 3:32 elevates the multitude, and does not, as I suspect you might think, lower His Mother...

So tell me, do you call the Mother of our Lord blessed?

Arsenios

 

[Marvin Knox]

Hello, I was just rebuking in the strongest way the verse you quoted from another version that said

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9

I believe that to be wrongly translated and it affects how some view sin.

Hello yourself.

I merely cut and pasted a verse from the NASB which I tend to favor. I have no axe to grind at all as to how it is translated. I am at the mercy of the Greek experts as we all are.

In our discussion here about whether God imputes or imparts His righteousness. i agree that it is both.

Good because it is as I have said.

If we sin as a believer then who is the sin attributed to?. Is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. So when we sin, even a single willful act can we say we are abiding in the light. ?

The sin is attributed to sin which dwells in us.

"And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it." Romans 76:20

No - when we sin we are not abiding in the light.

Now i do believe God gives a space to repent of sin and what sin can do is harden us to the dangerous point where we don't keep the faith and we don't keep coming back to God and abiding in Him. This is dangerous and then a person can depart from God through and evil heart of unbelief ( Hebrews 3:12 )

Of course..

No Bible believer would or could disagree with that.

I simply point put scripture and how we understand them. This is a in-depth study maybe for another post. But 1 John 3:6-10 is a very strong section of scripture. It does affect how some understand being made the righteousness of God or not.

Yes it is a strong section.

It and other scriptures which correlate with it do indeed affect how we understand being made the righteousness of God.

I can ask you when you commit sin are you still of God? John says those who commit sin are of the devil. I know it may shatter many preconceived and taught notions. But what is Johns direction in this serious walk. He says for all to "ABIDE" in Christ. The word "abide", means to remain, or continue in.

Obviously you have an agenda against the eternal security of the believer. This is not the thread for that discussion and my post did not address t hat question.

Don't you agree?

I agree here and accept your correction. I should not say they did it sneakily or not. I repent of that.

Good. You are obviously an honest person.

But if the scripture is the way I quoted it and the word is not "prasso". Then somewhere along the line either men or the devil or who knows how messed that verse up and gave licence for millions to sin and think they are not of the devil. This could in fact be the sneakiness of the devil, men or possibly some misunderstanding and translation error.

No one outside of out and out "antinomians" give license to sin. No one here is of that flavor - that I have seen.

But all my discussion is still within the frame of this post. I am pointing out the "righteousness" aspect and the proof that God has imparted or made us the righteousness of God in Christ. If we are made the righteousness of God and walk in unrighteousness are we in the light? John seems to be dealing with this very thing. Yet some would say we are simply imputed righteous and not made righteous in Christ and so when they sin they say they are only imputed not made righteous in their spirit.

I do not say that.

As I said previously and clearly - it is both.

I believe we are declared righteous before God because of our faith, sealed by His Holy Spirit based on our faith, and changed in our behavior concerning righteous behavior by that same indwelling Spirit.

I believe further that the new creation (the spiritual man who is united with God) cannot sin. I believe further that the natural man who still dwells with us can do little else but sin.

Here in this thread we are discussing whether one is imputed with righteousness or imparted with righteousness.

The answer is obviously "both".

If you believe that those who have passed from death into life can come again into condemnation (in spite of the clear teaching of the Lord) - that is you prerogative.

You seem to have an agenda against once saved always saved doctrine which would be (IMO) better served in a thread related to that debate.

 

[Arsenios]

.

 

[Arsenios]

If you believe that those who have passed from death into life can come again into condemnation (in spite of the clear teaching of the Lord) - that is you prerogative.

Probably off topic, but what then do you do with Hebrews:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good word of God,
and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away,
to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,
and put him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it,
and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed,
receiveth blessing from God:
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected,
and is nigh unto cursing;
whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you,
and things that accompany salvation,
though we thus speak.

I believe there is no one so exalted that he cannot fall in this life...
Hebrews would seem to agree...

Arsenios

 

[LoveofTruth]

You are simply and emphatically in error here...

It has nothing to do with osas...

Arsenios

Yes it does, I have heard them use this argument before. In fact as soon as you show them that when they committed sin they are of the devil. They will be irritated and say , "no I can never loose my salvation" I am still of God if i commit sin, I don't habitually sin or practice it" they say. And yet they still say they sin in word though and deed all day long and cannot cease from sin. Then they rush to try and use the word for "prasso" here, which emphatically is not there. it doesn't mean what their new versions say. The KJV had it right and the greek is not the same as in Romans 1 etc.