Does God only impute righteousness to us, or does He also impart it?

[Arsenios]

Arsenios,

Where in scripture does it say, Be ye repenting? I think it says simply, REPENT!

Good question - I am simply giving you the literal translation of the Greek... If it was simply "Repent!", it would be an aorist imperative, which would then be understood as a one-time event, like "Drop the knife!" But instead, it is a present imperative, 2nd person plural, and as a present, it carries an ongoing meaning: It means: "Repent and keep on repenting..." A Greek woman explained the difference thus, from her observation of signs at the beach to swimmers: Present ongoing command: "Do not be swimming alone", vs the life-guard's shouted warning: "Shark! Get out of the water!" A definite right now instant command...

Also, Ephesians 2:3 says we were by nature children of wrath...which indicates that we no longer have that child of wrath nature, as "were" is in the past tense and indicates it is not a reality any longer. We WERE by nature children of wrath. So we are not children of wrath by nature any more. If you fail to see this I say ahead of time that it reminds me of 2 Corinthians 4:4.

Thank-you for engaging the text.

Here is the literal, if wooden, translation:

BYZ –
εν οις και ημεις παντες ανεστραφημεν ποτε
Among whom we all were overturned formerly

εν ταις επιθυμιαις της σαρκος ημων
in the lusts of our flesh

This is our prior condition as you say, upside down in the lusts of our flesh...
What does this mean? He goes on to explain:

ποιουντες τα θεληματα της σαρκος και των διανοιων
making/doing the desires, of the flesh and of the thoughts/imaginings

So that this is the meaning of living upside down in lusts and thoughts - You will notice that it describes the DOING of those thoughts and desires... And it is in thie DOING that he goes on to say:

και ημεν τεκνα φυσει οργης
and we (were) by nature children of wrath

That was our former nature: We used to be DOING wrong turned away from God...

ως και οι λοιποι
As also (were) the rest

And so also were all the others overturned in wrongs among whom we lived...

So you are arguing that this means we replaced our former NATURE by which we formerly conducted our lives... So if I have you right, and if it is true, then we should all be incapable of sinning once we become believers, because our sin nature is gone, and it has been replaced by a different nature...

Yet the Gospel is a Commandment: Be ye repenting! And IF one believes it, one will be "producing the fruits of repentance..." If our sin nature is replaced with a no-sin nature, we no longer ever need to repent... Or so it would seem, yes?

And yes, we are a New Creation...

It is at WAR with the old creation...

A war unto the death of the old...

Arsenios

 

[justbyfaith]

I will submit to the fact that 1 John 1:8 means that none of us is without sin. I have preached against this idea because I feel that some use this verse to strengthen their position that they don't think they need to repent. What the verse means is that the element of sin dwells in all of us, but can be rendered dead (Romans 7:8, Galatians 5:24) so that it has no influence over our behaviour, as specific passages would tell us (such as 1 John 3:5-9, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, and Hebrews 10:14).

 

[Arsenios]

I will submit to the fact that 1 John 1:8 means that none of us is without sin. I have preached against this idea because I feel that some use this verse to strengthen their position that they don't think they need to repent. What the verse means is that the element of sin dwells in all of us, but can be rendered dead (Romans 7:8, Galatians 5:24) so that it has no influence over our behaviour, as specific passages would tell us (such as 1 John 3:5-9, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, and Hebrews 10:14).

I think it is important to speak with precision here, because the Bible speaks with precision. Paul tells us that just as sin entered the world through one man, Adam, and Death through that one sin, so now has death entered the world, and passed on to all men... And it is because of this death, which we all inherit by being born in Adam, that all have sinned. Until Christ incarnated, the Second Adam, Who in His human nature as man did NOT sin, suffering ALL the temptations and passable corruptions we all face as humans, except not sinning...

So that in all the human race in Adam, including Christ, death abides, for which all have sinned except Christ... Christ overcame the world which is ruled by Death... He subjucted Himself to death, and by His Death did He overcome death within Himself - And Resurrected from the dead... ONLY Christ has done this... We do not do it in ourselves, but in Christ we can... So we become members of the Body of Christ, that in Him we should find Life Eternal, KNOWING the One True God and His Son, Jesus Christ... As members of His Body, we CAN be overcoming sin, but not death, though some have come close! But the CAUSE of sin abides in us, in our flesh, for it is corruptible and it passes away... Death is not yet overcome in us, but it is oveercome in Christ, and in Him, Death no longer rules, but Christ rules...

And this IF we are WILLING to deny our self, take up our cross, and follow Him...

And each of us has that willingness differently, according to the measure of faith given us by God, and according to our own willingness, because each of us is created by God in the Image of God... Discipleship gives us the likeness, according to our willingness, and according to God's purposing in each of us...

Ultimately, it is all God's doing... Without God, we can do nothing at all...

I do not think that you have this understanding of "sin nature"...
eg that death in us IS the sin nature of which you speak...
It is a war to the end to overcome sin in us...
To mortify the flesh, as Paul puts it...

Arsenios

 

[justbyfaith]

I don't find any disagreement in my heart concerning what you just said. I would just call what you call death the element of sin...sin in us is what causes us to sin, which you have called death. But if you think I don't have the proper understanding of "sin nature" I am open to some preaching.

 

[Arsenios]

I don't find any disagreement in my heart concerning what you just said. I would just call what you call death the element of sin...sin in us is what causes us to sin, which you have called death. But if you think I don't have the proper understanding of "sin nature" I am open to some preaching.

I will simply give you a literal translation [with explanation] of Paul's account here:

Rom 5:12 KJV
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:...

Here is the Greek:
Rom 5:12
δια τουτο
Through this...
Through this Atonement by Christ...

ωσπερ δι ενος ανθρωπου η αμαρτια εις τον κοσμον εισηλθεν
Just as through one man Sin into the Kosmos entered
Sin entered first through Adam into Creation...

και δια της αμαρτιας ο θανατος
And through Sin Death
And through that sin Death also entered, for Adam died...

και ουτως εις παντας ανθρωπους ο θανατος διηλθεν
And in this manner into all men Death did death pass through
And thus did Death pass through into all men...

εφ ω παντες ημαρτον
Upon which all have sinned.
And upon that death, having entered into the Kosmos, passing through into all men through Adam's one sin have all men sinned...
That little omega, [hO = 'ω,] means all that I underlined above, summarizing what was just written...

You see, Christ incarnated into this "body of death" Romans 7:24 and healed all mankind who are entered into Him by repentance and Baptism... Christ IS the Pascha, the Resurrection from the dead, which He renewed, in His Own Death ruled Body, by bringing it under His obedience to His Father...

And which Paul affirms of himself: "I subdue my body..."

The Body is simply incapable of leading a man uprightly...

More sense now?

Arsenios