Does God meet us where we are despite our denomination?

[Mary Meg]

Ok... so I'm not feeling that great today, so please try to go easy on me?

I have a theory. I see so many examples of God's grace in different denominations... godly grandparents and great-grandparents in my own Baptist family, saints I admire in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, learned and devoted people I read about among Lutherans, Calvinists, etc., and different Protestant denominations here in the U.S. So it seems to me that God is working in all these people's lives, despite having some differences of opinion.

So I don't mean to say that doctrine is unimportant, but maybe the heart of the Gospel, believing in Jesus and on God's grace to be saved, is more important than the details?

So as a Baptist, I'm coming to see that the Early Church had a different view about some things, like baptism and the Lord's Supper. And people ask me, if I'm coming to that conviction, how I can remain a Baptist. But, if I believe that God still saves Baptists, despite not believing in that, and also others who do believe in that, then why can't I remain a Baptist?

Is it possible that God meets us where we are, as long as we believe in Him? That, if baptismal regeneration is important, that He uses it for that purpose whether we believe in that specifically or not? That if the bread and wine really become the Lord's Body and Blood, and if it's important that we have His flesh to eat (John 6:53), then He might do that to feed all Christians, whether they believe in that or not?

 

[paul1149]

Is it possible that God meets us where we are, as long as we believe in Him?

That is certainly the case. But if you want to please Him as much as possible, and do the best thing for yourself, the normal thing to do is to conform yourself to the truth as much as possible.

Note - I'm not agreeing with your doctrinal suppositions here.

 

[tz620q]

Is it possible that God meets us where we are, as long as we believe in Him? That, if baptismal regeneration is important, that He uses it for that purpose whether we believe in that specifically or not? That if the bread and wine really become the Lord's Body and Blood, and if it's important that we have His flesh to eat (John 6:53), then He might do that to feed all Christians, whether they believe in that or not?

I think the important thing to think about is that God does meet us where we are; but he doesn't leave us where he met us. We are all called on a journey in our faith and part of that journey is to seek and follow Christ and that includes seeking the truth. I don't think that when we find the truth we should just ignore it or paint it as unimportant. Maybe your conscience guides you differently and I truly do not mean that in any derogatory way. The Holy Spirit has each of us on a different path. I know godly Baptists that became Catholic, brought their love of Scripture to their new denomination and started Bible studies. Maybe that was God's path for them.

 

[Tree of Life]

God meets us in all kinds of wacky ways. He uses broken and imperfect vessels. But I think you'll find that Catholicism is not something that you can accept in part. If they are right on the idea that they are the one true church, and if you come to believe that this is the case, then it would increasingly become disobedient not to join that church.

But I don't believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church. I believe grace can be found in every legitimate church and that there is a diversity of expression in the body of Christ. I don't believe that any church gets it totally right. There are some that are closer to the truth than others, but there is no "one true church".

If you believe as I do, then you may comfortably remain a baptist and even comfortably disagree with a number of baptist doctrines. But if you accept the Roman system, Rome is the only legitimate option for you.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Ok... so I'm not feeling that great today, so please try to go easy on me?

I have a theory. I see so many examples of God's grace in different denominations... godly grandparents and great-grandparents in my own Baptist family, saints I admire in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, learned and devoted people I read about among Lutherans, Calvinists, etc., and different Protestant denominations here in the U.S. So it seems to me that God is working in all these people's lives, despite having some differences of opinion.

So I don't mean to say that doctrine is unimportant, but maybe the heart of the Gospel, believing in Jesus and on God's grace to be saved, is more important than the details?

So as a Baptist, I'm coming to see that the Early Church had a different view about some things, like baptism and the Lord's Supper. And people ask me, if I'm coming to that conviction, how I can remain a Baptist. But, if I believe that God still saves Baptists, despite not believing in that, and also others who do believe in that, then why can't I remain a Baptist?

Is it possible that God meets us where we are, as long as we believe in Him? That, if baptismal regeneration is important, that He uses it for that purpose whether we believe in that specifically or not? That if the bread and wine really become the Lord's Body and Blood, and if it's important that we have His flesh to eat (John 6:53), that He might do that for all Christians, whether they believe in that or not?

According to Jesus, with God everything is possible, even a camel can fit through the eye of the needle.

 

[usexpat97]

I don't think God meets us despite our denominations, because I don't think denominations are bad. No "despite" here.

Denominations may serve to divide, but they also serve to unite. The Baptist denomination is what makes things like Annie Armstrong, Lottie Moon, Belmont University, etc. possible. You have church bodies larger than individual churches. Just like in sports leagues, you have factions. So? Without factions, you have no league.

 

[Tree of Life]

I don't think God meets us despite our denominations, because I don't think denominations are bad. No "despite" here.

Denominations may serve to divide, but they also serve to unite. The Baptist denomination is what makes things like Annie Armstrong, Lottie Moon, Belmont University, etc. possible. You have church bodies larger than individual churches. Just like in sports leagues, you have factions. So? Without factions, you have no league.

There is even a particularly Catholic form of denominationalism by the way of religious orders and rules of discipline.

 

[tz620q]

But if you accept the Roman system, Rome is the only legitimate option for you.

Isn't that a syllogism? If one accepts the Roman system, then they buy into the fact that it is the only legitimate option. Therefore acknowledging that is not going against one's conscience. You seem to be saying that pluralism is categorically right. Which makes no sense because pluralism accepts all beliefs irregardless of what they are. I don't think you believe that, therefore you do have your own standard of absolute truth. It is just different from that of the Catholic Church.

 

[Tree of Life]

Isn't that a syllogism? If one accepts the Roman system, then they buy into the fact that it is the only legitimate option. Therefore acknowledging that is not going against one's conscience.

Exactly. If one accepts the Roman system, they also accept that Rome is the only legitimate church. They cannot, then, in good conscience delay in joining that church. You can't say: "Yeah, it's God's will that all people become Roman Catholic," and then not become Roman Catholic.

You seem to be saying that pluralism is categorically right. Which makes no sense because pluralism accepts all beliefs irregardless of what they are. I don't think you believe that, therefore you do have your own standard of absolute truth. It is just different from that of the Catholic Church.

I reject pluralism and do believe in absolute truth. I just also happen to reject the Roman system.

 

[topher694]

So the question is: Is God bigger & higher than denominations? Of course He is.

When asked such questions, I often think about this: Throughout the history of the Bible, has man ever got it all completely right when it comes to God? So often we think we've got it figured out, only to see in hindsight, after God shows up, that He didn't do things the way we thought. Jesus is the ultimate example. They had hundreds of years of prophecy pointing to Him, but when He was here, on Earth, no one understood or "got it right" until well after. In fact we are still unpacking everything that He did for us. My point is this: I believe that no one person or denomination has it all right. When we get to heaven someday, we'll find out we were mistaken about some things. But, the main thing is, and has always been, Jesus. If we put our faith in Him, and Him alone, I think God can work around denominational differences.

 

[tz620q]

Exactly. If one accepts the Roman system, they also accept that Rome is the only legitimate church. They cannot, then, in good conscience delay in joining that church. You can't say: "Yeah, it's God's will that all people become Roman Catholic," and then not become Roman Catholic.



I reject pluralism and do believe in absolute truth. I just also happen to reject the Roman system.

Then you are saying that your absolute truth is just that, absolute. It trumps the Roman system and becomes a system onto itself. So what would be wrong in saying that all people should become members of your system. You see it is the same thing only with the reference changed.

 

[Tree of Life]

Then you are saying that your absolute truth is just that absolute. It trumps the Roman system and becomes a system onto itself. So what would be wrong in saying that all people should become members of your system. You see it is the same thing only with the reference changed.

I do believe that all people should become members of my system!

Not really. I don't suppose that I've got it all right. But in my view the church of Jesus Christ does not have perfect visible unity. There are Roman Catholic Churches which are legitimate churches of Christ and there are legitimate churches of Christ that can be found in every denomination. But there is no one true visible church.

 

[timewerx]

God / Holy Spirit met with me when I was 12.

However, it probably doesn't count since I did not treat my denomination seriously when I was 12.

It coincided with the time I started feeling that something is awfully wrong with our world.

 

[FireDragon76]

Ok... so I'm not feeling that great today, so please try to go easy on me?

I have a theory. I see so many examples of God's grace in different denominations... godly grandparents and great-grandparents in my own Baptist family, saints I admire in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, learned and devoted people I read about among Lutherans, Calvinists, etc., and different Protestant denominations here in the U.S. So it seems to me that God is working in all these people's lives, despite having some differences of opinion.

So I don't mean to say that doctrine is unimportant, but maybe the heart of the Gospel, believing in Jesus and on God's grace to be saved, is more important than the details?

So as a Baptist, I'm coming to see that the Early Church had a different view about some things, like baptism and the Lord's Supper. And people ask me, if I'm coming to that conviction, how I can remain a Baptist. But, if I believe that God still saves Baptists, despite not believing in that, and also others who do believe in that, then why can't I remain a Baptist?

Is it possible that God meets us where we are, as long as we believe in Him? That, if baptismal regeneration is important, that He uses it for that purpose whether we believe in that specifically or not? That if the bread and wine really become the Lord's Body and Blood, and if it's important that we have His flesh to eat (John 6:53), then He might do that to feed all Christians, whether they believe in that or not?

I believe that is true, it's just that people that deny catholic doctrine do not have that particular aspect of grace in their lives, because they have rejected it. That's not to say they cannot be saved, however.

BTW, not all Baptists were/are anti-sacramental. Particular Baptists did have a spiritual doctrine of baptism and the Lord's Supper, and understood them along more or less Calvinist lines. But most now days tend to be non-confessional and many are influenced by Biblicism or Arminianism. But you still find some Baptists that do speak of those things as signs and seals, it's just not common in America because Calvinistic sacramentalism has always been acutely vulnerable to reductionism.

 

[usexpat97]

I do take issue with the Roman belief that they are the only church, and Church of Christ who believes if you are not CoC, you are not saved.

I'm sure God meets the CoC where they are, if they are willing...and He meets all those "unsaved" where they are.

 

[tz620q]

But in my view the church of Jesus Christ does not have perfect visible unity. There are Roman Catholic Churches which are legitimate churches of Christ and there are legitimate churches of Christ that can be found in every denomination. But there is no one true visible church.

You are quite right. Christianity today has little unity and is becoming more and more divided. I am reminded of Christ saying in Mark 3:25 that a house divided against itself cannot stand. To me that division smacks of the work of Satan, whose main purpose is to divide us and draw us away from God. So I would propose that unity is one of the absolute truths that God has been trying to get us to embrace.

 

[Tree of Life]

You are quite right. Christianity today has little unity and is becoming more and more divided. I am reminded of Christ saying in Mark 3:25 that a house divided against itself cannot stand. To me that division smacks of the work of Satan, whose main purpose is to divide us and draw us away from God. So I would propose that unity is one of the absolute truths that God has been trying to get us to embrace.

I don't see denominationalism as division necessarily, so I don't quite have as grim a view as you do.

 

[FireDragon76]

Exactly. If one accepts the Roman system, they also accept that Rome is the only legitimate church. They cannot, then, in good conscience delay in joining that church. You can't say: "Yeah, it's God's will that all people become Roman Catholic," and then not become Roman Catholic.



I reject pluralism and do believe in absolute truth. I just also happen to reject the Roman system.

Catholics don't always understand that distinction because of a completely different ecclessiology.

 

[carp614]

I agree with you. I also see God at work in other churches.

If the Catholic doctrine says that only practicing Catholics can be saved (I'm saying "if" here because while I've heard this before I have never looked into it personally), scripture very clearly refutes that claim.

I feel certain that anyone, anywhere, who believes Jesus Christ died for their sins and accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior will go to heaven.

The church one attends or the doctrine one believes or struggles with is all peripheral to where one stands on who Jesus is and what he did.

For example, someone who believes Matthew Vines ridiculous claim that the Bible endorses homosexual behavior could be just as saved as I am as long as they agree with the statement in green text above. If their sin is the same as my sin, and their salvation is the same as my salvation, then we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ. The rest is just window dressing.

 

[Knee V]

I forget where I heard this (it was an Orthodox saint): "I would rather be subject to God's judgment than Satan's mercy."

God is gracious and merciful to us. He absolutely meets us where we are.