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Does God love everyone?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Dietrich Johnson, May 16, 2022.

  1. jamiec

    jamiec Active Member

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    If God commands us to love our enemies while God hates them, then God is the worst example to us. If that passage means having to deny the verses that ascribe hatred of people to God, then so be it - what is said by and about Christ, takes priority over everything in the Bible that negates it. The Bible has some bad stuff in it, which falls far short of the teaching of Christ.
     
  2. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Spoken by a true Catholic. But the Bible does not contradict itself. God is not tame.
     
  3. Cockcrow

    Cockcrow Member

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    God hated Esau Romans 9:13
     
  4. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    It is mostly a poor translation. The Hebrew doesn't say hate but thorn seed.
    Jacob I Loved, Esau I Hated - Hebrew Word for Hate
    The issue is people are too content with merely looking at English and not even thinking about it being a translation.
     
  5. rebornfree

    rebornfree Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Yes; John 3 v 16
     
  6. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So what should it have said?
     
  7. GoldenKingGaze

    GoldenKingGaze Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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    My idea is that God loves the persons for sure but preferred the character of the one that wanted a spiritual inheritance.
     
  8. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You are commanded by Christ to hate you family, so does that mean you stop Loving them?
    You can hate and Love a person at the same time, the opposite of Love is not hate.
     
  9. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You are commanded by Christ to hate you family, so does that mean you stop Loving them?
    You can hate and Love a person at the same time, the opposite of Love is not hate.
     
  10. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    "We also need to understand the Hebrew word behind "hate"; it is not as absolute as we tend to consider it. The word is sânê, and its meanings range from real hatred—the intense, visceral emotion of antagonism against another—to be set against or intolerant of another.
    Richard T. Ritenbaugh
     
  11. GoldenKingGaze

    GoldenKingGaze Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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    Esau was second to Jacob with God, but they were worth the same to God, He died for both, Esau is also in paradise now.

    God loved Esau and he is part of the world God so loves as to send His only son for him... Esau had the wrong character, and God did not love the way in him, to prefer a fill, a dinner over a spiritual birth right that was from God. God wants us to want Him, and it was Jacob who did this. I don't think God wants us to hate our families, just to prefer God to them.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
  12. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    The question is analog to "do you love apples". That depends on what is the time precisely when an apple turned rotten. God knows His sheep and loves them, as for others maybe it depends on when they fully turned wicked as well as how God applies His foreknowledge.
     
  13. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    Well if Esau was a thorn to God then it should say that.

    Two things happen with texts translated into English.
    1) Some words translate into a simple word yet the original had multiple meanings. The word 'love' is one of the best for shades of meaning Eros, Agape, and Philos.
    2) English is forever changing. What once was understood to mean X changes to mean something else. It's possible hate was originally understood to mean something else when it was originally translated then what we in 2022 think it means. Didn't they use to say 'the stink of a rose'? Most people now would only use the word 'stink' to indicate a bad smell.
     
  14. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What it should say is what it translates to. The word was a verb (V‑Qal‑Perf‑1cs), (which "Esau was a thorn" is not), of the same person and tense as "have I loved" (V‑Qal‑Perf‑1cs); 'Esau have I hated' is a good translation, as most versions have it. The only other translations use 'rejected' or the like. Nothing about thorns.

    Maybe it should have said, "Esau have I thorn seed"?
     
  15. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    'Esau have I hated' is a good translation, as most versions have it.

    Not if people go away thinking that God hates like a man hates. There should at least be a footnote.
     
  16. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's not much God does that is like we do.
     
  17. Bob Crowley

    Bob Crowley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have an issue with the business of "God is Love" sometimes. I'm not the only one either - my old Protestant pastor, a very wise and prophetic man, once said to me "I sometimes wonder if it's true. He (God) seems to write people off pretty easily".

    I once asked him "What the heck did God make the devil for?". He thought for a minute, shrugged, and said "Oh, he's got a job to do I suppose".

    I've said this a million times, but on the night my father died way back in January 1979, he appeared in my room. At one point in our conversation (before he disappeared again into eternity with a blood curdling scream) he said with some feeling "I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!"

    I argued back, even though I was an atheist at the time, saying "That can't be right!" It seemed quite unfair to me. it still does, even though by his own admission that night he said "I've been an absolute mongrel to you!"

    He answered, "Oh, it's right, all right. You can see that from here!" It was obvious he could see things (literally) that I couldn't. Most of the time he was either looking over my head at something behind me with a look of awe, or he was trying to hide his face behind his hands (I presume at those times he was seeing immoral episodes in his life under the divine gaze, and he couldn't stand it). But when I turned around to see what he was looking at, all I could see was the bedroom wall.

    What he could see was hidden from me, like the two disciples walking to Emmaus. They weren't allowed to recognise Christ till He decided it was the right time. Until then they could walk for miles with him and not realise who he was, even though he was right next them. And it must have been a while since He apparently went right through the Scriptures with them and explained how the Messiah must suffer and die.

    There's the business of divine exclusion as I see it. It was Christ Himself who said "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him." Obviously He doesn't draw everyone. Why not? It's all right for St. Paul to say that the pot shouldn't argue with the potter, but if the pot's got a valid complaint or is being treated unfairly, then why not??

    I remember a testimony years ago by a former homosexual from Sydney (in our Presbyterian church for a weekend workshop mainly featuring Rev. Fred Nile).

    (Fred Nile - Wikipedia - Note that altough he is anti-homosexual (in the moral sense), he also set up organisations to help those who had become Christian, or to encourage them to become Christian. It was one of these groups that came with him to the workshop).

    He claimed that at his second suicide attempt (after he'd become Christian but fallen into his old habits) that Christ materialised in the far corner of the room where he was about to kill himself. He said Christ moved towards him and then merged with him. He'd just about been ready to pull the pin on whatever method he was using for suicide, but was saved by Christ's miraculous presence.

    He said from that moment on he never even had to struggle with homosexual tempation. He'd met a woman who accepted his past and they had a couple of young sons, who were in the church (proof if you like).

    So my question is if God loves everyone, why doesn't He rescue every suicidal attempt, whether they were homosexual or not. Note that He'd already "drawn" the young homosexual who had become Christian but fallen. What about all the rest of them?

    I suppose I'll find out the answers in full the other side of death, but I've got a few questions I'd like to ask God.

    Let's put it this way - I'm a bit averse to some of our catch phrases.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2022
  18. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Some he has chosen, to whom he will show mercy, and make his dwelling place, but not all, and not because of anything worthy in those he chooses. We don't know what love means til we know him. God is love, not love is God.
     
  19. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    That oughta' be on the wall in every church.
     
  20. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Has nothing to do with God's "feelings", but with Covenant. Because Jacob, though the second child, was the heir of the promise, not Esau. God's covenant was with Israel, not Edom.

    And further, Romans 9:13 means nothing without Romans 3:23 and Romans 11:32.

    Go back and read Romans. Slowly and deliberately.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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