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Featured Does God love angels?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by AnticipateHisComing, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    It does make us special because we are the body of Christ.
     
  2. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    Also that's why when God had finished He took His rest. Jesus is still working so that we can live in Him. He is our rest so we can take our rest as well as enjoy the future rest.
     
  3. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Actually, God's love is the reason for torment of those opposed to Him - not that He turns off love and turns on wrath instead.

    God is constant. It is we who are changeable and relate to Him in certain ways.

    I understand your point that you are saying God died for us, so He loves us more, since He didn't die for the angels. But bodies really DO figure into it. If one's view of salvation is only "payment for sins" then I can see that would seem to follow. But Christ did so much more! Defeating death, was even more highly stressed by the early Christians. And death was an effect on the physical world, that was the curse Christ reversed. That had nothing to do with the Angels.

    With a broader view of atonement, that includes victory over death and reconciling the world (physical creation) to God, it makes more sense.

    I'm sorry, I'm not being simplistic to say "God is love" as an answer. But there are two things that I'm aware of that Scripture says God IS (not attributes that describe Him, but what He IS) ... and that is love, and a consuming fire. And it is the fact that He IS love that causes Him to be experienced as a consuming fire by those who oppose Him.

    It's not "God is loving" as in "God is righteous" ... not a descriptor. But God IS love/agape. And agape can't be properly applied to humans loving dogs or plants. It is perhaps unfortunate that we don't have the distinctions in English to make this plain. Agape is a very rare form of love. Peter didn't even acknowledge it towards Christ.
     
  4. Simon_Templar

    Simon_Templar Not all who wander are lost

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    Hi Cassia,

    When it comes to the idea of "soul" and "spirit" the first problem you face is that the Bible appears to use the words more, or less interchangeably. It doesn't seem to actually make a clear distinction between soul and spirit. For the record this isn't a distinctly Catholic position, the protestant scholars I've seen comment on soul vs spirit in the Biblical text have had the same view.

    So, if the Bible doesn't make a clear distinction between them, and seems to use them synonymously,
    you'd have to provide some other basis or reasoned argument why they are different. Further, you'd have to be able to establish a reason why, for example, free will pertains to the soul but not the spirit, and why the spirit can't act directly on the body. The later of the two I suspect would be contradicted by the Biblical text too, but I don't know for sure off hand.
     
  5. Simon_Templar

    Simon_Templar Not all who wander are lost

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    I don't think you really understand what Love is. Honestly very few people actually have a good understanding of love anymore because our whole modern culture has totally screwed it up.

    First. Love is not a feeling. Love in and of itself, has nothing to do with feelings whatsoever.

    Second. Human beings experience feelings which used to be called something more like affection as distinct from love. Once upon a time we recognized that affection was what we felt, but love was what we did. Distinct difference. One may feel affection and not love at all. Likewise you may also love greatly without any feeling.

    Third. Feelings, as we know them, are purely physical. They are all hormones and chemicals in your brain. Beings that do not have physical bodies do not experience feelings and emotions like we do. Whatever analogous things they may have are very different from what we know as feelings.

    Fourth. Love is defined by two things, self-gift and willing the good of the one you love. By self-gift I mean that the one who loves sacrifices self, and gives of and from their own self to the one they love.

    Thus, caring is not simply a degree of love. Caring is a feeling which my drive a person to pursue acts of love because caring may cause you to wish good and to do good for the person. However, care is not love.

    I could say that God is 'more than love' in the sense that you mean. Yes he is Holy and Just, and he has wrath etc. But the really true statement is that Love is more than what you mean by love. Love is Holy. Love is Just. Love can be wrath when it is experienced by those who find it torturous rather than finding it fulfilling.

    This is a point that few people understand and it causes great problems for many people. To send people, including the Devil and his Angels to Hell is an act of love. Real love REQUIRES that there be a hell. I'm sure this sounds crazy, but it actually makes perfect sense.

    Evil is much like darkness, or coldness, it does not have positive existence. Evil is not a thing, it is the lack of a thing. Evil is the lack of goodness. This also is the answer to the question of "did God create evil?" the answer is no because evil doesn't actually exist, any more than darkness exists in iteself, or cold.

    God, on the other hand, is existence itself. He is the source of all Being. His very name is "I AM".

    What this points out is that existence is inherently good, while non-existence is the ultimate evil. Non-existence is literally to lack every possible good. It is the greatest evil, because it is the greatest lack.

    So, one of the defining characteristics of Personhood is free will. If you cannot chose, then you are not truly a person. You are simply an automaton. For God to remove a person's free will, thus, or to rob them of the consequences and the meaning of their choices would be to cause them to cease to be a person. It would literally be to remove from them the Image of God. It would be the greatest evil imaginable.

    The fact that God would never do this because it would be utterly contrary to Love necessitates that it must be possible for people to reject God and to reject love. To honor that choice is an act of Love. This makes hell a necessity if God is to truly love all persons.

    This is often obscured because human beings, in our physical nature, fear physical suffering more than anything. We think, foolishly, that it would be better not to exist than to suffer. This is entirely wrong.

    Also, hell is not the complete absence of God, as many people think. This is both scripturally wrong and philosophically wrong as well. God is existence, all being, all existence comes from God. Those who are in hell have rejected God and his love. They hate God. As a result, the fact that they can't escape his love is precisely what torments them.

    They have pushed themselves as far from God, relationally, as they can get, but they can never fully escape God.

    People will end up in hell, not because God hates them, but because they hate God and he is giving them what they have chosen, as much as is possible. They will not go to hell because God doesn't love them, but precisely because he does.
     
  6. Simon_Templar

    Simon_Templar Not all who wander are lost

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    The problem is that you think Love is opposed to Truth, Holiness, and Justice, etc.. It isn't. All of those things are the result of Love.

    Regarding God hating Esau, this is meant to be understood simply in the context of priority. 'Jacob have I loved, but Esau I have hated'. This doesn't mean that God actually hated Esau, or that He didn't really love Esau. It just means that He chose Jacob over Esau as the inheritor of his Covenant. The language of love there is expressing the fact that the Covenant is a special expression of God's love because covenants establish family bonds. So He was addressing the fact that He had made Jacob part of his family, but not Esau.

    Jesus also says that if you are to be worthy of him, you must hate natural family. Do you think he actually means you must literally hate your family? Or do you think He means you must be willing to leave your natural family and become part of his supernatural family?
     
  7. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    It's enough to say that the possibility is there. Proving is left to those who still remain with a desire to do so. I don't think it necessary. (either to stay w/o a desire to do so or to prove anything) The onus is more on you to compare results so that your not following blindly a hyposisis that may or may not hold merit.
     
  8. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    More so than you do, because mine is based on what scripture actually says. Go back and read the OP. It contains more scripture than you have quoted in all your posts. You reference one scripture "God is love" and use it to fabricate a version of love that erases the punishment and wrath that God actively participates in. God is just and on judgement day his wrath will be complete on those that do not receive his grace. What is grace but the result of God's love that not all will receive, including not Satan or his angels.

    2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

    Hebrews 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”

    Romans 1:18 [ God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity ] The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

    Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

    Romans 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—​

    Satan is the greatest evil. I guess according to your "logic" Satan does not exist. See what happens when you use human logic to define God's world. It just makes no sense.
    Satan is going to feel so bad it is going to be torture that he won't be able to be with God. You think it torture to be loved by one you hate? Tell me if love is more than a feeling as you say, how does God express/show his love to those in hell? What mercy will he give them?
    Scripture calls it the lake of fire and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. What an imagination you have. I will ask again, do you have any scripture that says God loves the devil?


    Lastly, because you like human logic I propose an analogy. Pretend I was the richest person in the world. I was so rich you could say my money was almost infinite. Now I wanted to share my wealth and gave every person on the planet a trillion dollars? Would anyone become rich? No, it would actually accomplish the opposite and make previously rich people poor. Now for the analogy, pretend money is love.

    This is the difference between "infinite love" and God's word, Romans 9:22-23.
     
  9. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    So love can't be appreciated by anyone unless they get to see someone suffer hate so they have something to compare it with?
     
  10. SMITTY7000

    SMITTY7000 New Member Supporter

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    ANTICIPATE,
    THANKS FOR THE COMMENT ON MY POST. WHAT I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO SEE IS COMMENTS BACKED UP WITH SCRIPTURE OR BY DEFINITIONS OF WORDS FROM STRONG`S CONCORDANCE. FOR ALL WHO PARTICIPATE HERE THE WORD OF GOD IS MUCH MORE MPORTANT THAN OUR PERSONAL VIEW.
     
  11. Simon_Templar

    Simon_Templar Not all who wander are lost

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    Your post here demonstrates three things.

    #1 - You either didn't read, or didn't understand most of what I said.
    #2 - You really don't understand love. Your money analogy proved that quite nicely.
    #3 - One scripture reference understood is better than a multitude misrepresented.

    You are quoting scriptures that reference eternal punishment and God's wrath against wickedness as though they are opposed to what I'm saying. Yet I have already said that I agree with those things. This is why I suggest perhaps you either didn't read or don't understand what I said.

    This is commonly known as a strawman argument. You are arguing against something I'm not saying. I agree. God has wrath against sin. People who reject God, along with the Devil and his angels will go to the Lake of Fire. Quoting verses like that at me doesn't harm my argument in the least because I already agree with those verses.

    The difference between my view on these things and your view on these things is that you seem to think these actions are opposed to love, thus meaning God must hate some people. Where as I believe these actions are completely consistent with love and are in fact necessary for real divine love to exist. Thus I argue that God loves everyone, even the Devil and eternal punishment, as described in the Bible, is God giving people what they themselves have chosen and indeed what they want.

    You keep making mocking comments that seem to indicate you think my view on love is somehow linked to liberal Christians who deny God's wrath and deny eternal punishment because they think such things are inconsistent with Love.

    The irony is that you are actually the one who agree with them and you are making the same mistake they are making. You both believe that God's actions are inconsistent with Love. They err by assuming t hat God is Love and therefore those actions must not be true. You err by assuming that those actions are true, therefore God must not be Love.

    My understanding of Love is completely scriptural and consistent with scripture.

    The essence of Love in scripture is exactly what I said in my earlier post...
    1 - Self giving and sacrifice
    2 - willing the good of the beloved

    This is straight from Jesus himself. No greater Love has any man but that he should give up his life for his friends.

    Giving up your life is the ultimate act of self-giving and self-sacrifice. And when a person gives up their life for their friends, are they doing it because they want good for their friends, or because they want bad for their friends? Are they doing it because it makes their own self feel good? or because it accomplishes good for their friends?

    For further evidence, go to 1st Corinthians 13. There you will find that Love not only is completely self-giving, completely willing the good of the other, but also that Love rejoices in the TRUTH and does NOT delight in evil.

    You seem to think that Love is opposed to the Truth and the Love somehow just accepts evil. This is not remotely a scriptural view of Love. This is the opposite of Biblical love.

    Love and Mercy, Generosity, none of these things are lessened or cheapened by the fact that they are freely given to everyone.

    The value of money and economic goods in human economy is derived from scarcity. The more rare something is, the more we value it (in general). God's love is not like this at all.

    This is literally like saying that since God is omnipresent and makes himself available to everyone, God is therefore worthless. This is utter nonsense and completely worldly thinking.

    I have been talking about real love, but I should clarify that there are different types of love. These types are expressed in the four Greek words, Eros, Storge, Phileo, Agape.

    Eros = Desire (Romantic love)
    Storge = Friendship
    Philia = Brotherly love
    Agape = Selfless, unconditional love

    What I have been referring to as "real love" is Agape which is the Love that God has for man, and the Love that he desires us to have for him and for each other.

    Agape is selfless, self-giving, and unconditional. All the other types of love are associated with feelings, but Agape isn't.

    The other types of Love are good in the right context, but they are designed to lead us to Agape. When the other types don't lead us to agape, they often become twisted and selfish. When this happens they essentially cease to be real love.

    When Jesus speaks to Peter at the end of John's Gospel and says "Peter do you love me" and Peter says "Lord you know that I love you."

    in the original language it says "Peter do you agape me?" "Lord you know that I philia you." "Peter do you agape me?" "Lord you know that I philia you", Peter do you philia me?"

    In this exchange Jesus is asking Peter "do you love me selflessly" and Peter replies "Lord you know I love you like a brother". Jesus is asking for a higher, truer Love and Peter is responding with a lower, but still good love. Eventually Jesus lowers the Love that he is asking for. The lesson being that God wants to draw is into agape, but he will meet us where we are at in order to draw us along.

    Jesus also asks three times reminiscent of Peter's three betrayals.

    The reason I bring this up is to show that we are, because of our fallen nature, not capable of loving like God. His love is something so above Love as we know it that it can seem totally foreign and even frightening. Yet we are called to grow into that kind of Love.

    The lower forms of love that we know do often involve a value of exclusivity. We like the feeling of knowing that someone loves us more than they love others, or that we exclusively have their love etc. Those kind of things, however, do not apply to God's love. They don't apply to Agape.
     
  12. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    ANGELS: Spirit Beings? Do you beleieve in them?

    Angels are REAL and pure spirit beings who do the will of God...His "messengers"
    who dwell in heaven and occasionally are revealed on earth..."men in white?"...NO wings!...NO halos!
    Angels are SPIRIT beings, created by God to serve Him, though created higher than Man.
    Angels have the spiritual gift of "free will".
    Some, the "good angels", have remained obedient to Him and carry out His will,
    while others, "fallen angels", disobeyed, fell from their holy position, and now stand in active opposition to the work and plan of God, following Lucifer / devil / satan....wherever.

    "Good" angels reside in heaven.

    Classifications:
    A. Cherubim (Genesis 3; 2 Kings 19:15)
    B. Seraphim (Isaiah 6)

    "Bad" angels will reside in the "lake of fire"for eternity. Matthew 25:41

    Most of the time, "Good" angels have manifested themselves as "glowing men dressed in white".
    Metaphors: They hover around the "throne of God". Art / Music: robes, halos, wings...nice try!

    The Hebrew word for "angel" is "mal`ach",
    and the Greek word is "angelos".
    Both words mean “messenger” and describe one who executes the purpose and will of the One whom they serve.

    https://bible.org/article/angelology-doctrine-angels

    1 Thessalonians 4 (NASB)
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven
    with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and
    with the trumpet of God, and
    the dead in Christ will rise first.

    Matthew 26
    64 Jesus said to him, (trial by Caaphas)
    “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you,
    hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    Mark 8:38
    For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation,
    the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him
    when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

    Matthew 28:2
    And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred,
    for an "angel of the Lord" descended from heaven and
    came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it.

    John 20:12
    and she (Mary M.) saw two angels in white sitting,
    one at the head and one at the feet,
    where the body of Jesus had been lying.

    Matthew 28:5
    The angel said to the women,
    “Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified.

    Luke 1:30, 34
    The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.
    Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”

    Luke 2:9-10
    And an "angel of the Lord" suddenly stood before them, (shepherds) and
    the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened.
    But the angel said to them,
    “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;

    Luke 22:42-43(NASB)
    “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”
    Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him.

    1. Who is "the angel of the LORD" ?...a pre-figuration / shadow of Jesus the Christ?

    SEE:
    Genesis 16: 7-11; Genesis 22: 11-15; Exodus 3:2; Numbers 22:22-35; Judges 2:1-4;
    Judges 6:11-22; Judges 13: 3-21;

    "the angel of God":

    2 Samuel 14: 17-20; 2 Samuel 24:16 1 Kings 19:7; 2 Kings 19:35; 1 Chronicles 21: 12-30
    Psalm 34:7; Psalm 35:5-6; Isaiah 37:6; Zechariah 1:11-14; Matthew 1:20-24; Matthew 2:13-19;

    2. What are "Guardian angels"?

    Psalm 91...Security of the One Who Trusts in the Lord

    Used by satan to tempt Jesus?

    Matthew 4:6!
    11 For He will give His angels charge concerning you,
    To guard you in all your ways.
    12 They will bear you up in their hands,

    Matthew 18:1-11
    10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their "angels in heaven"
    continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

    3. Some angels have NAMES:
    Gabriel: Luke 1:19

    Michael:
    Jude 1:9
    But Michael the archangel,
    when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said,
    “The Lord rebuke you!”

    Revelation 12:7
    And there was war in heaven,
    Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon.(satan)
    The dragon and his angels waged war,

    4. And the book of Revelation is absolutely FULL of ANGELS!

    Some do not acknowledge the existence of ANY spirit being. That is SAD-U-SEE!

    Act 23:8
    For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.

    And that is FAIR-U-SEE!
     
  13. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    Looks like you read Romans 9. Can you argue your position?

    22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—​

    In God's creation love is expressed by his mercy and grace. That means an offense had to happen. Jesus in his death, the ultimate act of love from God to man, gave us a path to righteousness. This is grace that the saved receive. This is why scripture says faith gives us a credit of righteousness. God in his love gives the gift of salvation to the saved.

    Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.​
     
  14. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    No, I have no desire to "argue" :) but I will answer.

    That verse says "what if ..." It reminds me of when Jesus told Peter "what difference does it make to you if I want this one to remain until I come?" and St. John writes - Jesus did NOT say that that disciple would not die.

    And your premise seems to be that God cannot love unless man committed an offense? So therefore, if the fall had never happened, God would not love us? Which is why you assume He does not love the angels?

    I strongly disagree. God would have still loved and delighted in His unfallen creation. His love would simply have not had to be expressed through redemption.
     
  15. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    Do we know if John died before Jesus' second coming? Just because there was a rumor among the disciples, does not mean Jesus was teaching that John would not die. Look at the context. Jesus just explained to Peter he would die in an unpleasant way. Peter than asked about John, how he would die is the implied question. Jesus' answer was it doesn't matter to you and your mission what I have in store for John. This is asserted in verse 23 where John clears up the misunderstanding and the "if" does not teach that John would or would not die.

    Is it poetic justice that your attempted refuting of my quoted text is an example of God's special love? John is the only apostle that lived a long life that did not end with a torturous death. Could it be an example of God demonstrating a special love he had for John? This does not mean Jesus did not love the other disciples.


    Next, how about looking at a better example of "what if" where the two words are used together exactly as in Romans 9:22-23.

    Romans 3:3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness?​

    According to your logic, since Paul says what if, we should question the words that follow if they are true. Read the rest of Romans 3 to learn that even though "some are unfaithful" there is still a path to righteousness through faith. But, don't intentionally be unfaithful.

    Understand that Paul is using the literary device of the rhetorical question. It is a statement posed as a question to add emphasis, not invalidate the words. Scripture does not inject the word if so that we 2000 years later can question and ignore the words that follow.

    Paul used the same what if rhetorical question in Romans 9:22-23. We know that Paul's point is not to be dismissed because he immediately quotes four texts to support his statement in verses 25-29.
    Here we go again where I must remind you of what I stated.
    I never said God did not love angels.
    I never said God could not love us without our sinning. What I said was grace and mercy are expressions of God's love. You did acknowledge the same. But, you wish to ignore the concept that grace and mercy in God's redemption requires an offense, Romans 9:22-23.
    And my premise, you misstate. Must I again explain the OP? Very simple.

    Man did sin. Angels did "sin". God sent his Son as the greatest expression of love to redeem man. No expression of love with redemption for the angels. God does not have the same love for angels.

    You propose a "what if" where man did not sin and angels did not "sin". God loves perfect man and God loves perfect angels. Understand that Romans 9 describes a "what if" that describes the real world and not a "what if" fantasy as you imagine. You can be sure that the better understanding of the text is the true one and not the fantasy one. Both men and angels rebelled against God. Only men are the objects of his mercy.


    Lastly, you don't acknowledge that it was God's plan for his Son to die for us since before creation. Our mistake did not surprise God. What happened is how his plan works for us to learn of his glory, love, mercy and grace, Romans 9:22-23.

    Acts 2:23 This man[Jesus] was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

    Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.​
     
  16. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    My dear brother. Forgive me, but convoluted arguments are not the way we do Theology. I fear I have misunderstood you to a degree (please forgive me) and I think maybe you have misunderstood me as well.

    But I'm not going to address the "what ifs" because that's not how we determine our beliefs. And I thought I did acknowledge that God had a plan to redeem mankind before the beginning - I generally do on such a topic. Perhaps it was in reply to someone else.

    I see that you say God loves angels. Good, then we agree.

    You are simply denying His love being like the love He has for us, since we were redeemed through Christ's Incarnation?

    We simply have to agree to disagree. The Church Fathers had an understanding (and I agree) that through Christ, God reconciles all of the material Creation to Himself. This is in part because of our priesthood over creation - we were the cause of its fall through our sin. Christ taking on human flesh and redeeming man - and creation along with us - is part of that plan.

    It's not due to lack of love, it's due to the fact that the angels are not part of the material creation.

    God IS love (I'm sorry, I know you objected to me bringing that up) and that is how we know He loves all.

    I'm not going to change your mind, nor am I trying to. If you're interested, you can read the early Church Fathers and discover how the Apostles and their disciples understood redemption, the fall, angels, and a great deal more. It's wonderful stuff. But if you're not interested, that's your business too. No hard feelings.

    FWIW, I do see your argument, and reason. It is a reasonable conclusion. I don't deny that. But we have teaching and understanding that explains these things in particular, so we don't need to rely on logical speculation, which in this case is wrong, if the early Church Fathers can be believed.

    Peace to you.
     
  17. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    You have not been antagonistic in your posts so no worries. I welcome different positions. I think we learn more from differences than if everyone just stated the same thing. Ya, I still don't understand your church placing significance on the flesh for redemption. So be it. It will not change our salvation.

    As to convoluted arguments being a common occurrence in Theology debates. I don't shy away from them and kind of expect them for people that follow Sola Scriptura.
    Thanks and peace from God above to you.
     
  18. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +15,367
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Thank you for being gracious.

    I can understand that you don't understand what I'm saying about God redeeming the world (creation) to Himself and how that relates to man as having a priestly role over creation from the beginning. I'm not really explaining it thoroughly, and it took time and putting pieces together for me to get it, but once I did it was awesome to consider, and began to make sense of many things.

    But as you say, i don't think that understanding is a necessary component of salvation.

    And I understand your approach to Scripture as well.

    God be with you.
     
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