Does God know what we will do in the future? Our fate?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Really? Now you are going to resort to insults? Well You haven't supplied any scripture, you are the only one on this thread with your beliefs and your points are so full of carnal reason that it doesn't warrant discussing anymore at this point.

Don't get your nose out of joint. I'm only winding you up!
Paul's definition of "carnal" is connected with the Corinthians (and anyone else) who are involved in the works of the flesh, dividing into factions, misusing the gifts, and failing to conduct themselves in line with the fruit of the Spirit. Nowhere does he say that people using common sense or their brains to give logical thought is carnality.

If you are going to say that people using their noggins to think things through, then read Francis Schaeffer, and then determine whether he is using "carnal" or "spiritual" reasoning.

I also go by the reasoning (may be carnal! ) that you know what a barrel is full of when you kick it. If it full of acid, that's what you get, but if it is full of honey, then that is what you get.

 

[GTW27]

All you have done is to show that time is an eternal absolute before the measurement of it started. Eternity is measureless time - one event following another in an endless stream. Eternity is like a river of time that has no beginning or end.

It is an eternal absolute in the same way that good and evil are eternal absolutes. Even God's moral law is an eternal absolute. He never created moral law. It has always been there, in the same way that God has always been there. We don't know what God got up to in eternity past. We are not given that information. We know that the angels were created, but we have no idea how long ago that happened because in eternity there is no measurement standard for time. We can't say that the angels were created billions of years ago, because years didn't exist then because the sun and earth did not exist, and the measurement of years depends on the rotation of the earth around the sun.

It seems that when some people read the Bible and consider the nature and character of God, they must have been off school with the flu when basic comprehension skills were taught.

Blessing to you Oscar! Actually we do know when the angels were created. Gen2 v1 "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." "I AM" is an interesting Name when we think deeply about it.

 

[disciple Clint]

Was having this discussion with my dad, he made some good points. For example, we all have free will and we are what determine our destiny. I was arguing that God knows our fate, and what we will do in the future, but that view changed.

If God knows exactly what we're going to do, then why did Hitler exist if his fate was already predetermined that he was going to go to hell?

Or does God not know what we will do in the future with our free will? Did God know that when Hitler was born that he was going to mass murder Jews, and did God already have Hitler in the book of death before his existence?

The concept that God gave us free will, and that he doesn't know what we will do with our free will in the future makes more sense to me, but what are your thoughts or objections aside from prophecies, I understand God knew the prophecies very well and planned out, but what about our future actions. Does God know those?

Exodus 32:14, Jeremiah 19:5, Genesis 22:12. and Isaiah 5:3-7 would indicate that God is not aware of free will choices in advance. God no doubt has a master plan, which will without fail come to pass, but He allows us to make our own decisions because to not do so would be a violation of God's unlimited love. He loves us so much that He will allow us to do things that hurt Him and our relationship with Him. You can learn more about this by researching Open Theism. A good book used as a resource for many courses in Theology is Pennock, Clark , The Openness of God. Blessings

 

[Heart2Soul]

Don't get your nose out of joint. I'm only winding you up!
Paul's definition of "carnal" is connected with the Corinthians (and anyone else) who are involved in the works of the flesh, dividing into factions, misusing the gifts, and failing to conduct themselves in line with the fruit of the Spirit. Nowhere does he say that people using common sense or their brains to give logical thought is carnality.

If you are going to say that people using their noggins to think things through, then read Francis Schaeffer, and then determine whether he is using "carnal" or "spiritual" reasoning.

I also go by the reasoning (may be carnal! ) that you know what a barrel is full of when you kick it. If it full of acid, that's what you get, but if it is full of honey, then that is what you get.

Oh okay, it is so hard to tell what tone and intent a person is giving on a web....well I will try to take you with a little sense of humor from now on.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Blessing to you Oscar! Actually we do know when the angels were created. Gen2 v1 "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." "I AM" is an interesting Name when we think deeply about it.

That's a very interesting point! I haven't heard of that one before. Does that mean that when the war happened in heaven and Lucifer and a third of the angels were thrown out of heaven, this was at the same time as the world, and Adam were created?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oh okay, it is so hard to tell what tone and intent a person is giving on a web....well I will try to take you with a little sense of humor from now on.

Yep! When someone tells me that I am talking bull, that's when my particular sense of humour kicks in. My wife sometimes tells people that she "never takes me anywhere" because of some humorous thing I say sometimes. My daughter told me off once when I was told that the only session I could attend at her gym was one where mostly women attended. I told her that it didn't faze me any, all I would do is do my thing and enjoy the scenery!

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

I think of it this way: I can give my youngest daughter a free choice for tv and dinner. Sponge Bob or football and Sushi or MacNCheese. She has total freedom to choose which one she will watch and eat. I will not influence her in anyway, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that she will choose Sponge Bob and MacNCheese.

What you are describing is wisdom, rather than knowledge. You know your daughter and you are wise to her ways. You can see this if you instead offer her a choice of Sponge Bob episodes or two similar sized plates of MacNCheese. Your ability to accurately predict her actions goes down considerably.

To paraphrase your next paragraph

God knows my mind. He knows my every thought. He knows what I am likely to do in any situation because he knows the way I think. I do have free choice however, so he does not know the outcome of my choices, but he is wise enough to predict them accurately in most situations.

People who think God's foreknowledge is absolute neglect the fact that this then effectively renders his wisdom non-existent, for wisdom is not required when one knows absolutely the outcome of every choice.

To tie this back to your daughter: If she has a favourite episode of Sponge Bob, your ability to predict the choice she makes might be increased, but it is by no means certain. Likewise with the MacNCheese, the amount of food might not be a factor any more, but the plate served on or the cutlery offered becomes important.

An all-wise God can predict with far greater accuracy the actions of those whom he loves and knows, but he can still be surprised by them, as in the case of Ninevah repenting in Jonah or Adam eating the apple in Genesis.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

I understand God knew the prophecies very well and planned out, but what about our future actions. Does God know those?

No, not absolutely, but he does know us and know our likely responses, which means that he is all wise and able to 'predict' our actions with very good accuracy.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No, not absolutely, but he does know us and know our likely responses, which means that he is all wise and able to 'predict' our actions with very good accuracy.

Just to add to your good comments: If God knows every absolute detail of the future and what we are going to do, then why bother praying? We won't be able to change anything because God knows what is going to happen and already decided the outcome. It is also no use asking God for anything, because He already knows what He is going to give us, so we might as well just sit back and receive what is coming to us.

Actually, this is destiny and fate, which is a Middle Eastern pagan concept. It says that Allah has decided and we have to accept it whether we like it or not. There is no point trying to change our future because it is already set for us. It is our fate. That is why Muslims don't have requests included in their praying. They believe that they cannot change Allah's will, no matter what they do.

So, if God has everything worked out, and knows the absolute future, we might as well go to church, sit in the back pew and wait for the rapture, because whatever will be will be (whoops! another Allah concept).

 

[Bobber]

Doesn't prove detailed foreknowledge. Jesus knew that Peter would not have the courage to identify himself with Jesus having found himself alone among a hostile group of people. He knew the location and the time of day, and that at dawn, roosters would crow. Peter was set up to fail, to show that without the infilling of the Spirit even the best Apostle would fail.

How you put this together doesn't work. Jesus broke down precise details of things like how many times Peter would deny the Lord.....that would have to be like he knew the future like an open book.

 

[Bobber]

Just to add to your good comments: If God knows every absolute detail of the future and what we are going to do, then why bother praying? We won't be able to change anything because God knows what is going to happen and already decided the outcome.

How do you know you wouldn't be able to change anything? I've known cases of intuition things where people had a knowing NOT to do a certain thing like board a plane or a boat and later find all aboard died.

'It is also no use asking God for anything, because He already knows what He is going to give us, so we might as well just sit back and receive what is coming to us.

Well about asking or not asking it's just not something you put your focus on not doing. You do it because he encourages you to do it. If one holds back from praying because someone read your statements then that's just one of the things God saw they would do. In the next world they'd be asked why did you let such a thought stop them from praying?

There is no point trying to change our future because it is already set for us. It is our fate.

But you haven't demonstrated evidence that such is the case.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

How you put this together doesn't work. Jesus broke down precise details of things like how many times Peter would deny the Lord.....that would have to be like he knew the future like an open book.

He could very well have planned and set Peter up to fail because He knew about Peter's shortcomings.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

How do you know you wouldn't be able to change anything? I've known cases of intuition things where people had a knowing NOT to do a certain thing like board a plane or a boat and later find all aboard died.




Well about asking or not asking it's just not something you put your focus on not doing. You do it because he encourages you to do it. If one holds back from praying because someone read your statements then that's just one of the things God saw they would do. In the next world they'd be asked why did you let such a thought stop them from praying?



But you haven't demonstrated evidence that such is the case.

I am not discouraging anyone from praying, but the very fact that we can change things through prayer proves my point. The reason why many people don't get their prayers answered is because they believe in their hearts that because God knows the absolute future and has everything worked out anyway, they don't have the same faith as someone who is confident that they can influence God through prayer. There are enough Scriptures to show that we can change history through prayer; and there are places in the Bible where men of God changed God's mind through prayer and negotiation with Him. Abraham and Moses are two good examples. The people of Nineveh suspended God's judgment of the city through repentance, fasting and crying out to God for mercy, even after the prophecy was given, and the prophecy had a definite time limit. Jonah disobeyed God at first because he knew that if Nineveh repented, God would change His mind about the city. And Jonah was angry at God when He did change His mind because it made him appear to be a false prophet because his prophecy didn't come to pass at the end of the 40 days. Because God is not a liar, His prophecy was absolutely true and was His true intention, but Nineveh's repentance changed His mind about destroying them.

 

[lesliedellow]

The entire universe lies open before God, in both its spatial and temporal dimensions. Ergo, he knows all things, including all our actions, past, present and future.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The entire universe lies open before God, in both its spatial and temporal dimensions. Ergo, he knows all things, including all our actions, past, present and future.

I go along with your comment except the very last word. I have already commented in previous posts that God knowing the absolute future is a figment of the imagination and belongs in the realm of science fiction. There is nothing that can be done to convince you that your god knows the absolute future, but the God of the Bible has not said anything of the sort, and whatever is not clearly stated in the Bible, ain't true.

 

[lesliedellow]

I go along with your comment except the very last word. I have already commented in previous posts that God knowing the absolute future is a figment of the imagination and belongs in the realm of science fiction. There is nothing that can be done to convince you that your god knows the absolute future, but the God of the Bible has not said anything of the sort, and whatever is not clearly stated in the Bible, ain't true.

“And he cried against the altar in the word of the Lord, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the Lord ; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men’s bones shall be burnt upon thee. (1 Kings 13:2)

So God was able to put that into a prophet’s mouth, right down to the very name of a king who wasn’t due to be born until centuries into the future. How did clever old God manage that, if he knows no more about the future than we do?

Open theism is a heresy which has to sit light to the Bible, in order to retain any kind of plausibility at all.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

“And he cried against the altar in the word of the Lord, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the Lord ; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men’s bones shall be burnt upon thee. (1 Kings 13:2)

So God was able to put that into a prophet’s mouth, even right down to the very name of a king who wasn’t due to be born until centuries into the future. How did clever old God manage that, if he knows no more about the future than we do?

God planned it and put the plan into effect. Remember that God is all powerful and can cause people to be born, and grow up to be rulers of nations. Time means nothing to God. He can take as long as He likes to bring His plans to fruition. He took 800 years to fulfill Joel's prophecy. I think I made that fairly clear in previous posts on this thread.

 

[lesliedellow]

God planned it and put the plan into effect. Remember that God is all powerful and can cause people to be born, and grow up to be rulers of nations. Time means nothing to God. He can take as long as He likes to bring His plans to fruition. He took 800 years to fulfill Joel's prophecy. I think I made that fairly clear in previous posts on this thread.

Congratulations. You no longer sound like an Open Theist, or even an Arminian. You are a Calvinist!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Congratulations. You no longer sound like an Open Theist, or even an Arminian. You are a Calvinist!

I just read the Bible as it is written and don't try to read stuff into it that isn't there.

 

[bling]

I am not discouraging anyone from praying, but the very fact that we can change things through prayer proves my point. The reason why many people don't get their prayers answered is because they believe in their hearts that because God knows the absolute future and has everything worked out anyway, they don't have the same faith as someone who is confident that they can influence God through prayer. There are enough Scriptures to show that we can change history through prayer; and there are places in the Bible where men of God changed God's mind through prayer and negotiation with Him. Abraham and Moses are two good examples. The people of Nineveh suspended God's judgment of the city through repentance, fasting and crying out to God for mercy, even after the prophecy was given, and the prophecy had a definite time limit. Jonah disobeyed God at first because he knew that if Nineveh repented, God would change His mind about the city. And Jonah was angry at God when He did change His mind because it made him appear to be a false prophet because his prophecy didn't come to pass at the end of the 40 days. Because God is not a liar, His prophecy was absolutely true and was His true intention, but Nineveh's repentance changed His mind about destroying them.

You bring up some real good points, but I do not think you have considered all the alternatives:

For the last 100 years now it has been experimentally shown: “Time is Relative” and no experiment has shown otherwise, so if time is relative how relative would it be for God?

Would the sequencing of events in heaven have to be at time sequencing of events on earth?

God has and can certainly set people up so they can sin, but like Peter denying Christ three times, God would not override the free will choice of Peter to cause him to sin or it would not be Peter’s choice, so how does God know what Peter very specifically will do and yet not personally control what peter did do?

Think about it like this: You know today some free will choices made yesterday, but you cannot change those choices because they are history. God at the end of time would know all the free will choices man made throughout man’s time so it if history for even God at the end of time and cannot be changed.

Since God at the end of time is the same God at the beginning of time he is communicating with Himself at the beginning of time so God at the beginning of time knows everything God at the end of time knows, but that does not change what God did throughout time.

I like the story of Jonah, but first off what you have to remember is: “It is the story of Jonah and not the story of Nineveh. Jonah is who God is really working on and trying to teach, with Nineveh being part of the back drop. Jonah is the one being “set up” for a lesson.

The fact that Jonah from previous knowledge knows God can change even what He says he is going to do if the nation changes appears Jonah knew what Jer. 18 tells us: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

We mighty also assume the people of Nineveh knew what Jer. 18 taught, maybe from previous prophets going to Nineveh, who might have specifically warned of Jonah’s coming.

Also, if you think about it, what Jonah said: “God said: Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.” Is the only way God could warn the people of Nineveh as long as the teaching of Jer. 18 is understood? God cannot say: “Repent or I will destroy Nineveh in 40 days”, because that would suggest God did not know what will happen in 40 days (it would be misleading [a lie]) and if God says: “In 40 days I will not destroy you because you will repent” (which is the truth) that would not be a warning of destruction and the people would not repent. It is a kind of “catch 22” for God, but God gave out the teaching of Jer. 18 which allows God to be perfectly honest, know the future as pure history and still be able to warn the people.