Does God know the future?

[cloudyday2]

I'm curious what people think of this idea.

What if God has a strategy and an objective but He doesn't know the future? He knows He will reach His objective eventually, but He constantly adjusts His strategy as creatures in the universe exercise their freewill.

For instance maybe God originally planned and hoped for a certain course for the state of Israel, and if they had made the hoped for choices there would be a human king in Jerusalem ruling all of Earth. But the Israelites goofed-up so God went to plan B and created Christianity. Christianity might fail just like Israel, but God has a contingency for that too. This would explain why the religion of the Bible seems to evolve. The religion is only a strategy that must constantly change in response to random events and choices in the universe.

 

[Episcoboi]

I'm curious what people think of this idea.

What if God has a strategy and an objective but He doesn't know the future? He knows He will reach His objective eventually, but He constantly adjusts His strategy as creatures in the universe exercise their freewill.

For instance maybe God originally planned and hoped for a certain course for the state of Israel, and if they had made the hoped for choices there would be a human king in Jerusalem ruling all of Earth. But the Israelites goofed-up so God went to plan B and created Christianity. Christianity might fail just like Israel, but God has a contingency for that too. This would explain why the religion of the Bible seems to evolve. The religion is only a strategy that must constantly change in response to random events and choices in the universe.

You sound like a Process theologian. I like it. I believe that God is omniscient in that God knows what is going on in the cosmos because the cosmos "live, move, and have their being" in God. However, as a relational (rather than immutable being), God responds to our actions as God is in relation with us.

As one process thinker put it:

"This also means that God is truly omniscient. But from the abstract idea of omniscience, which is not in the Bible, many in the tradition have concluded that God must know everything about the future in just as full detail as God knows the past and present. That theory leads to strange results. It means that when God calls one to act in a particular way, God knows in advance how one will respond. That seems to mean that one’s response is predetermined. This predetermination conflicts with the idea that we have responsibility for our actions.
The Bible certainly depicts God as knowing some things about the future. Often the knowledge is conditional, for example, about what will happen if people do not repent. But sometimes it seems to be unconditional. Certainly, God knows a great deal more about the future than we do. But process and openness theologians agree that it is wrong to draw from this truth the idea that God knows every detail about the future.
On the contrary, God is depicted in the Bible as interacting with free creatures. God acts, creatures respond freely to that act, and God responds to their response. God has the resources to respond to us whatever we do, but God does not know in advance just what we will. God knows everything about the future that is now settled. God knows how God will respond to all sorts of creaturely acts. But God does not know, until we decide, just which of those acts will take place.
This means also that God does not cause or control all of our actions. When we act contrary to God’s will, it is not God who causes us to do that. We are the agents of our own sins. God does not keep all the power. Creatures also exercise power. In that sense, process theologians and openness theologians agree that God does not act omnipotently."
(From PROCESS AND OPENNESS by Dr. John B. Cobb)

 

[cloudyday2]

You sound like a Process theologian. I like it. I believe that God is omniscient in that God knows what is going on in the cosmos because the cosmos "live, move, and have their being" in God. However, as a relational (rather than immutable being), God responds to our actions as God is in relation with us.

As one process thinker put it:

"This also means that God is truly omniscient. But from the abstract idea of omniscience, which is not in the Bible, many in the tradition have concluded that God must know everything about the future in just as full detail as God knows the past and present. That theory leads to strange results. It means that when God calls one to act in a particular way, God knows in advance how one will respond. That seems to mean that one’s response is predetermined. This predetermination conflicts with the idea that we have responsibility for our actions.
The Bible certainly depicts God as knowing some things about the future. Often the knowledge is conditional, for example, about what will happen if people do not repent. But sometimes it seems to be unconditional. Certainly, God knows a great deal more about the future than we do. But process and openness theologians agree that it is wrong to draw from this truth the idea that God knows every detail about the future.
On the contrary, God is depicted in the Bible as interacting with free creatures. God acts, creatures respond freely to that act, and God responds to their response. God has the resources to respond to us whatever we do, but God does not know in advance just what we will. God knows everything about the future that is now settled. God knows how God will respond to all sorts of creaturely acts. But God does not know, until we decide, just which of those acts will take place.
This means also that God does not cause or control all of our actions. When we act contrary to God’s will, it is not God who causes us to do that. We are the agents of our own sins. God does not keep all the power. Creatures also exercise power. In that sense, process theologians and openness theologians agree that God does not act omnipotently."
(From PROCESS AND OPENNESS by Dr. John B. Cobb)

Thanks! I guess that is another book for my reading list.

 

[Amber Bird]

Doesn't the Bible inform that God is omniscient? Knows everything?
Our lives predestined according to his will. Which would then have to preclude any chance of our having free will, because we can not decide that which has already been planned by a supreme being.

Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will


Great is our Lord, and of great power: His understanding is infinite (Psalm 147:5).

 

[cloudyday2]

Doesn't the Bible inform that God is omniscient? Knows everything?
Our lives predestined according to his will. Which would then have to preclude any chance of our having free will, because we can not decide that which has already been planned by a supreme being.

Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will


Great is our Lord, and of great power: His understanding is infinite (Psalm 147:5).

Maybe omniscient means that God knows everything that can be known but He designed the future so that nobody could know it - including Himself?

 

[elopez]

I believe God knows the future infallibly.

If god doesn't know the future and simply plans for it, he cannot possibly have any certain knowledge if his plan will ever go through. He would be in the same position as us, planning for the future, not really sure if it's going to work out, and constantly adjusting to all the changes in our plan.

This is not the case. God's plan is immutable and sovereign. Nothing can change it, not even our free will choices. For example, say God planned to have Christ sacraficed. Nothing we could do would have changed or altered that.

God's Sovereign will doesn't preclude the idea of human free will, and nor would knowledge of the future. Knowledge is not a causual relation that could make or cause someone to act a certain way. Indeed, what God foreknows of is ultimately what we desire to do, which is an implication of free will.

According to the revealed will of God, which is what God has revealed to us, such as the ten commandments or the command in the Garden, there is a possibility of rebillion. God cannot force us to not murder or steal, hence free will.

 

[ebia]

I'm curious what people think of this idea.

What if God has a strategy and an objective but He doesn't know the future? He knows He will reach His objective eventually, but He constantly adjusts His strategy as creatures in the universe exercise their freewill.

For instance maybe God originally planned and hoped for a certain course for the state of Israel, and if they had made the hoped for choices there would be a human king in Jerusalem ruling all of Earth. But the Israelites goofed-up so God went to plan B and created Christianity. Christianity might fail just like Israel, but God has a contingency for that too. This would explain why the religion of the Bible seems to evolve. The religion is only a strategy that must constantly change in response to random events and choices in the universe.

Scripture sometimes depicts God knowing some aspect of the future, but in tension with that often describes God as finding out, discovering, being surprised or disappointed, even regretting.

Conventional theology tends to say God knows everything in advance.
Process theology tends to say the future does not exist in advance to be known.

Like Prof. John Goldingay I'd rather hold the same tension as scripture. Perhaps God chooses not to know everything in advance so that he can have a genuine relationship.

However, even if he didn't know before hand that Israel couldn't live up to its calling it must surely have become pretty darn obvious very early on.

 

[golgotha61]

I'm curious what people think of this idea.

What if God has a strategy and an objective but He doesn't know the future? He knows He will reach His objective eventually, but He constantly adjusts His strategy as creatures in the universe exercise their freewill.

For instance maybe God originally planned and hoped for a certain course for the state of Israel, and if they had made the hoped for choices there would be a human king in Jerusalem ruling all of Earth. But the Israelites goofed-up so God went to plan B and created Christianity. Christianity might fail just like Israel, but God has a contingency for that too. This would explain why the religion of the Bible seems to evolve. The religion is only a strategy that must constantly change in response to random events and choices in the universe.

This is part of an essay written by Jeffrey Niehaus, professor of Old Testament at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. The full article appeared in the Journal Of The Evangelical Theological Society in 2010. The full article can be accessed at: http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/53/53-3/Niehaus_JETS_53-3_pp_535-559.pdf

1. God vis-à-vis time. God is outside of time.5 That is why he says, “I am
the first and I am the last” (Isa 44:6, 48:12), and of all human generations
he can say that he has been “calling forth the generations from the beginning
. . . I, the LORD—with the first of them and with the last—I am he”
(Isa 41:4). Likewise in John’s Revelation he says, “I am the Alpha and the
Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End” (Rev 22:13; cf.
“ ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, ‘who is, and who was,
and who is to come, the Almighty,’ ” Rev 1:8; cf. Rev 21:6). Another way of
putting this is to say that God “inhabits eternity” (Isa 57:15, kjv, esv, asv
[Heb, d[" ˆkEvø]; cf. Ps 102:12 [Heb 102:13]).6 One consequence of this fact is
that all times are present to God. God existed eternally before he created
the cosmos, and man and woman in it, and when God created them God also
already dwelt in the eschaton, and in eternity beyond the eschaton. That is
why Paul can say of God that “he chose us in him before the creation of the
world to be holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4). God could choose
Paul’s contemporary believers (and subsequent believers as well) “before the
creation of the world” because all of them were present in his view before
the creation of the world. So also at this moment in human time God is
already with his redeemed in our future: “And God raised us up with Christ
and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus” (Eph 2:6).
Paul can say that God has already “seated us with him” in heaven, because,
although for Paul it was future, for God it was past. And for God, outside of
time, it remains future, present, and past.7
eternally present before him. Once the new covenant had come into existence
between God and humans, however, it would never pass away—hence it is
justly called the “everlasting covenant.” It was instituted within human history,
and before that it did not exist within human history, but once instituted
it would endure beyond human history for eternity, because it institutes our
fellowship with God, which can never pass away.
The foregoing observations not only clarify the meaning of the phrase,
“the everlasting covenant” (as it applies to the new covenant); they also
enable us to understand that God can endow his word with historicity. He is
outside of history (although he also informs it, as he informs all of time and
space, cf. Heb 1:3). He knows the flow of events thoroughly and perfectly.
Indeed, because he alone is omniscient and sees all things exactly as they
are, his is the only comprehensively objective point of view in the universe.9
Consequently, he is able to produce a Bible which is endowed with historical
accuracy. And, not incidentally, he can easily foretell, through prophets, what
is to come, with as much detailed accuracy as suits him, since anything that
is future for the prophet and his audience is eternally present before God,
and may be viewed by him exactly as it is and communicated through his
prophets with accuracy. This is the implication of the statement, “with the
first of them and with the last—I am he.” That is, he is with the first and
with the last—he is the Alpha and the Omega—at one and the same instant.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm curious what people think of this idea.

What if God has a strategy and an objective but He doesn't know the future? He knows He will reach His objective eventually, but He constantly adjusts His strategy as creatures in the universe exercise their freewill.

For instance maybe God originally planned and hoped for a certain course for the state of Israel, and if they had made the hoped for choices there would be a human king in Jerusalem ruling all of Earth. But the Israelites goofed-up so God went to plan B and created Christianity. Christianity might fail just like Israel, but God has a contingency for that too. This would explain why the religion of the Bible seems to evolve. The religion is only a strategy that must constantly change in response to random events and choices in the universe.

The difficulty in conceptualizing God and time is that we force God to be like us, looking at time the same way we do.

If we compare our experience of time to us boarding a train without knowing the destination or route, we can say that we don't know what stops the train will make or where it's ultimately heading--if anywhere specific at all. What we tend to do is make God out to be a fellow passenger, the only major difference is that where we don't know the route or destination, God does; but otherwise our experience is the same--moving forward.

That's inaccurate. Imagine instead that God isn't on the train at all, and that He holds a map with every possible route the train could ever take, every stop, and can see the train at any one of its locations at any given time all at once in the present--from the moment the train left the station at X and also the moment the train arrives the station at Y. At the same time. All at once. God can then see every passenger, every stop, every person who boards and unboards the train.

God doesn't "know the future" as though he's looking forward into the future like a seer; God rather observes the entire length of all space-time from the outside-in. Seeing all things in His eternal now. What happened yesterday, and what will happen tomorrow are things God knows because He is there both in the past and the future (for you) at once in His now.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[cloudyday2]

The difficulty in conceptualizing God and time is that we force God to be like us, looking at time the same way we do.

If we compare our experience of time to us boarding a train without knowing the destination or route, we can say that we don't know what stops the train will make or where it's ultimately heading--if anywhere specific at all. What we tend to do is make God out to be a fellow passenger, the only major difference is that where we don't know the route or destination, God does; but otherwise our experience is the same--moving forward.

That's inaccurate. Imagine instead that God isn't on the train at all, and that He holds a map with every possible route the train could ever take, every stop, and can see the train at any one of its locations at any given time all at once in the present--from the moment the train left the station at X and also the moment the train arrives the station at Y. At the same time. All at once. God can then see every passenger, every stop, every person who boards and unboards the train.

God doesn't "know the future" as though he's looking forward into the future like a seer; God rather observes the entire length of all space-time from the outside-in. Seeing all things in His eternal now. What happened yesterday, and what will happen tomorrow are things God knows because He is there both in the past and the future (for you) at once in His now.

-CryptoLutheran

To me that makes human freewill into a charade. Wouldn't it be better if God himself existed in time - His now is our now? How does creation make any sense without a before and after? How can humans be made in God's image if God is that different?

 

[cloudyday2]

Scripture sometimes depicts God knowing some aspect of the future, but in tension with that often describes God as finding out, discovering, being surprised or disappointed, even regretting.

Conventional theology tends to say God knows everything in advance.
Process theology tends to say the future does not exist in advance to be known.

Like Prof. John Goldingay I'd rather hold the same tension as scripture. Perhaps God chooses not to know everything in advance so that he can have a genuine relationship.

However, even if he didn't know before hand that Israel couldn't live up to its calling it must surely have become pretty darn obvious very early on.

I guess that makes sense to look to what the Bible says.

I like the process theology (I didn't know that was what it's called). Instead of the Bible looking like humans trying various ideas and failing, it becomes God trying various ideas and humans failing.

 

[ebia]

I guess that makes sense to look to what the Bible says.

I like the process theology (I didn't know that was what it's called). Instead of the Bible looking like humans trying various ideas and failing, it becomes God trying various ideas and humans failing.

As I said, I think scripture (and truth) is somewhere between those two extremes.

 

[ViaCrucis]

To me that makes human freewill into a charade. Wouldn't it be better if God himself existed in time - His now is our now? How does creation make any sense without a before and after? How can humans be made in God's image if God is that different?

That God sees our actions/choices as we do them does not mean the action/choice wasn't our own to make by our own rational/moral free agency.

My point was that God is not seeing our actions/choices as though they are yet to be done, but rather sees them as they are being done, by us.

If tomorrow I choose to drink a can of Pepsi, that is my choice to make. That God is already in my tomorrow, observing the choice I make does not make it any less my choice. It isn't a determined outcome.

Earlier today I made an iced coffee for myself. God was present as I chose to make it. Was it a pre-determined event just because God was in that moment, seeing the choice I made?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[cloudyday2]

That God sees our actions/choices as we do them does not mean the action/choice wasn't our own to make by our own rational/moral free agency.

My point was that God is not seeing our actions/choices as though they are yet to be done, but rather sees them as they are being done, by us.

If tomorrow I choose to drink a can of Pepsi, that is my choice to make. That God is already in my tomorrow, observing the choice I make does not make it any less my choice. It isn't a determined outcome.

Earlier today I made an iced coffee for myself. God was present as I chose to make it. Was it a pre-determined event just because God was in that moment, seeing the choice I made?

-CryptoLutheran

It seems like God would be bored to death if He knew the future. The universe would appear dead to Him. The universe must appear alive to God, and that is only possible if the universe can surprise Him. So I think God must exist in the same time as everybody else and must only know probabilities about the future.

 

[98cwitr]

You sound like a Process theologian. I like it. I believe that God is omniscient in that God knows what is going on in the cosmos because the cosmos "live, move, and have their being" in God. However, as a relational (rather than immutable being), God responds to our actions as God is in relation with us.

As one process thinker put it:

"This also means that God is truly omniscient. But from the abstract idea of omniscience, which is not in the Bible, many in the tradition have concluded that God must know everything about the future in just as full detail as God knows the past and present. That theory leads to strange results. It means that when God calls one to act in a particular way, God knows in advance how one will respond. That seems to mean that one’s response is predetermined. This predetermination conflicts with the idea that we have responsibility for our actions.
The Bible certainly depicts God as knowing some things about the future. Often the knowledge is conditional, for example, about what will happen if people do not repent. But sometimes it seems to be unconditional. Certainly, God knows a great deal more about the future than we do. But process and openness theologians agree that it is wrong to draw from this truth the idea that God knows every detail about the future.
On the contrary, God is depicted in the Bible as interacting with free creatures. God acts, creatures respond freely to that act, and God responds to their response. God has the resources to respond to us whatever we do, but God does not know in advance just what we will. God knows everything about the future that is now settled. God knows how God will respond to all sorts of creaturely acts. But God does not know, until we decide, just which of those acts will take place.
This means also that God does not cause or control all of our actions. When we act contrary to God’s will, it is not God who causes us to do that. We are the agents of our own sins. God does not keep all the power. Creatures also exercise power. In that sense, process theologians and openness theologians agree that God does not act omnipotently."
(From PROCESS AND OPENNESS by Dr. John B. Cobb)

I'd like to see Dr. Cobb do a exegesis on Proverbs 16:9 and 20:24 then!

 

[ebia]

I'd like to see Dr. Cobb do a exegesis on Proverbs 16:9 and 20:24 then!

People plan their path, but the LORD secures their steps.

Proverbs 20:24
A person's steps are from the LORD;
how then can people understand their path?

Why would either of those be difficult?

 

[Tnmusicman]

Doesn't the Bible inform that God is omniscient? Knows everything?
Our lives predestined according to his will. Which would then have to preclude any chance of our having free will, because we can not decide that which has already been planned by a supreme being.

Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will


Great is our Lord, and of great power: His understanding is infinite (Psalm 147:5).

God knowing the future doesn't mean He's planned it out for us. Since when does knowledge equal anything other than knowledge??

 

[Tnmusicman]

It seems like God would be bored to death if He knew the future. The universe would appear dead to Him. The universe must appear alive to God, and that is only possible if the universe can surprise Him. So I think God must exist in the same time as everybody else and must only know probabilities about the future.

You're trying to equate God with human trains of thought. It seems unlikely that God would be bored as that's a human emotion. If God had human emotions he wouldn't posses agape love.

 

[1234321]

I'm curious what people think of this idea.

What if God has a strategy and an objective but He doesn't know the future? He knows He will reach His objective eventually, but He constantly adjusts His strategy as creatures in the universe exercise their freewill.

For instance maybe God originally planned and hoped for a certain course for the state of Israel, and if they had made the hoped for choices there would be a human king in Jerusalem ruling all of Earth. But the Israelites goofed-up so God went to plan B and created Christianity. Christianity might fail just like Israel, but God has a contingency for that too. This would explain why the religion of the Bible seems to evolve. The religion is only a strategy that must constantly change in response to random events and choices in the universe.

Yes, He can see the future, present and past with 100% accuracy and precision. Nothing He did happened by accident.

If we didn't goof up, we wouldn't quite understand the magnitude of His love for us - Him spiritually whooping us, then comforting us, Him almost pleading with us to do good, and stay away from evil, Him allowing His only son to come down here and show us how to live Godly, even after several of God's prophets were murdered or severely oppressed.

If Adam didn't sin, there would be no appreciation for life. Since Adam sinned, his title of son of God (an immortal) fell to Man (mortal,) and all of his children were therefore (wo)men (mortals.) Imagine the sadness when Eve found out Abel died. Imagine the pain Seth felt when he saw his father sick and ultimately die of old age. If Adam didn't mess up in that way, altruism and self-sacrifice wouldn't be such incredibly appreciated qualities in a human.

He knows every single possibility and every single outcome of every single decision that could be possibly made. He knows what will happen if I go left, walk straight for 2 seconds at 0.5 miles per hour, then jump on my left foot. He know what will happen if I jump on my right foot instead. In fact, He knows what choice I will make, because I have already started a process that lays out the design for other choices I will make (quantum mechanics.) So, He isn't course-correcting anything; when He made the universe in the order He made it in, He knew the ending and progress in between.


In general, He is raising spiritual children. Children do not appreciate the knowledge of a stove being hot until they experience touching it with the hand. The combination of experience and knowledge is wisdom. Likewise, though we are expected to be, and were created perfectly (we meaning Adam, Eve, and the world and universe,) We were like infant newborns.

Right now, we are like toddlers, or young children (which is why God, the Parent, may spank us spiritually but says, "it is O.K., just don't do it again!") Christ allows us grace, like the grace you would give a child that breaks furniture, or destroys your computer.

When we spiritually grow up (become well-versed, faithful, and saved in Christ,) we are expected to do better. Goof ups are not as acceptable as when we are kids. Likewise, sinning when you are saved is not easily acceptable. Still, you can be forgiven just like any parent would forgive their grown child. God is simply raising us as spiritual children. He even gave us the ability to be parents so we can have an earthly analogue for what God is doing with us.

 

[cloudyday2]

...
God is simply raising us as spiritual children. He even gave us the ability to be parents so we can have an earthly analogue for what God is doing with us.

I like that analogy. It seems like God is also teaching human society how to be better. But I like the idea that even God lives only in the present time. The past is gone and the future isn't created yet.

I thought of an issue with making God's religion change with time in response to global social evolution - why not make the religion relative to a particular culture at a point in time and even relative to person at a point in time?