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Featured Does God forget people who end up in Hell?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Far Side Of the Moon, Jul 31, 2018.

  1. NW82

    NW82 Well-Known Member

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    The lake of fire is not temporary. Hell and the lake of fire, if you read Revelation, are two different things.
     
  2. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    If that is what Jesus thought his warning to fear Him who can throw you into hell (the grave) makes no sense whatsoever. No one in their right mind is afraid of those who will bury your body.
     
  3. Persis

    Persis Titus 3:4-7

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    I'm answering to some of the posts that say that Hell is not eternal...

    The totality of our depravity means that because of our rebellion against God and our corruption of our goodness that He gave in the beginning, we have offended him in such a way that we deserve eternal punishment.

    It is Mind boggling and breath taking .. Hell as never ending suffering, and never ending torment. Never ending..Year after year, century after century, Age after age, forever…


    Why such a severe response ? Why would we get an eternity of punishment for a temporary limited time of sinning ? Isn't that disproportionate, and wouldn’t considerations of justice mean that if we did 70 years of sinning, we would get 70 years of suffering ?

    Justice doesn't work that way. It doesn’t mean that if it takes 10 seconds to kill a baby for example, that therefore you should only get 10 seconds of jail. Justice doesn’t work like that

    It doesn’t matter how long is the duration of the crime.

    It’s the heinousness and severity of the crime.

    The severity of crimes, rise and fall not simply by how long the crime lasted, but several other factors. One of which is the Dignity of the person sinned against. An offense against the President of the U.S. will be treated with far greater seriousness severity than just another person on the street. He will be watched and guarded much more careful, because there is so much more and many more at stake.


    God is an infinitely worthy being, and therefore a sin or an offense against him is an infinitely worthy punishment.

    That is why Hell makes sense, and should sober us and take our breath away.


    We never leave God because we value him little. We exchange God because we value something else more.

    Nobody leaves and forsakes God -suppresses, abandons, and turns away Simply because they value Him little.

    We always trun away from God because we value something else more.

    Which is why it is such a cosmic insult. This is the infinite outrage in the Universe that human beings prefer something else to God.


    Romans 1:22-25 English Standard Version (ESV)

    22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

    24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.


    Quoting scripture above now..

    Claiming to be wise..Chapter 22.. They exchanged the glor yof God, the immortal God for images and became fools, and exchanged the glory of God for images.

    We have all done it.. and we are tempted to do it everyday. To exchange something, for something means to express a preference.

    You don’t exchange something you value supremely, for something you value less. NEVER.

    You always exchange something for something that you want instead of that. "I want that other thing!"

    And everybody does that with God. We look at his Glory, we look His power and His widom and His beneficience,
    And we don’t say "Thank you!", we don’t say "You are great! ". We say instead, " Im going to trade you for something I really want! " That is why Hell exists. BECAUSE IT IS AN INFINITE SIN.

    YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING WORSE. There is nothing worse you can do than that. Sins gets all it's Evil from that… that is Evil.

    What we call evil…Hurting each other .. That is just little expressions of that. All the rottenness that we do to each other... Is deriving it’s rottenness from the ultimate rot of exchanging God.

    Saying that the infinite Creator and Most beautiful reality in the Universe ~ "I don’t want you, I don’t prefer you, you are not attractive to me, I am not satisfied with you, I get no pleasure from you. " "This other thing/person is my desire. This other thing/person is my treasure." ~That is Evil. THAT IS THE MEANING OF EVIL.... And all other evils get their evil from that.


    The deepest problem dealing behind money, sex, and power is we all know the supreme value of God.

    Everybdoy does.. everybody you will evert talk to. Talk to an atheist, agnostic, secularist, new ageist.. whatever religion.. Everybody knows the truth. Namely God is supremely valuable, and Everybody prefers something to God.

    Adam and Eve thought they were doing a wise thing when they preferred their way, and this fruit, over God and His way.

    They became fools and were darkened in their understanding and we have inherited that all the way down to the roots of our being.

    There are 2 kinds of Heart Conditions in the world:

    1. Those that values God overall, and
    2. Those that value something else overall.



    Whether your hearts are treasuring God supremely above everything else – whether it be evil or good..

    All the good things God has given you, or all the evil things the devil is tempting you with..

    More than the good things and more than the evil things, what is your delight , your satisfaction. Your treasure ?

    Is it God ? Then money sex, and ,power will turn into remarkable potentials in your life.

    If not, money sex and power will becomes unbelievably destructive in your hands.

    Amen.

    -notes from Paster John Piper.

    p.s. My capital letter are not shouting at anyone : )





     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  4. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    Which verse are you speaking of specifically sister. That way I know how best to answer you.
     
  5. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    “: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.” If hell is just the grave, this is really a silly statement.
     
  6. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    1. Hell and the lake of fire are two separate places. The misunderstanding of what/where hell actually is comes from Gehenna Originating in 1620's church Latin, post biblical Hebrew Gehinnom. It's meaning was used figuratively for a final resting place, the original word was switched to it by later churches.


    Strongs Concordance: 1067. Gehenna

    Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, a place of punishment for evil.
    Of Hebrew origin (gay' and Hinnom); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment -- hell.


    If we take the word back first to the original Greek it will bring us to Hades.

    Strongs concordance: Hades 86.

    The abode of Departed souls.

    The Grave, Hell


    Next we take it back to the original Hebrew word, Sheol.

    Strongs Concordance: Sheol 7585.

    Underworld. Place to which people descend at death.

    Grave, Hell, Pit

    This is the first death in Hell. When a man dies the first death he rests in the grave(Acts 2:27-31,1 Peter 3:18-19, 2 Peter 2:4 ,Psalm 16:10 ,Acts 2:27) and his thoughts cease, and he has no more part in anything done under the sun. (Psalm 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, Psalms 6:5)


    2. Hell is the grave that is cast into the lake of fire( Acts 2:27-31, 1 Peter 3:18-19, 2 Peter 2:4, Psalm 16:10, Revelation 20:13-14) the lake of fire is the place of eternal torment that the Damned are sent after they are judged(Revelation 20:12-15, 2 Timothy 4:1, Matt 12:36-37) on the day of Judgment(2 Thess 1:5-10; Mark 9:42-48; Isaiah 66:22-24; Matt 25:31-34,40-41,44-46; Daniel 12:1-2; Matt 8:11-12; Matt 13:38-42; John 5:28-29; 1 Cor 15:51-55; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:12-15). .

    2. The wicked are punished only AFTER the fire of vengeance brought by Christ destroys everything. (Matthew 24:29-31; Micha 1:3-4; Isaiah 66:15-17, 26:21, 2:9-22; Zephaniah 1:18,2:2,3:8,1:2-3; Haggi 2:6-7; Malichi 4:1; Joel 2:10,31; Hosea 10:8; 1 Thess 1:7-9; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9).

    3. There is no Death for those that have earned eternal life and were not sentenced to eternal death and torment(second death).
     
  7. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    Not at all, it means after a man kills you he has no more power over you. But the Lord can destroy your soul at any time even in the grave even before the Resurrection/Judgment day has come. That is it's meaning.
    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  8. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Doesnt solve the problem because you says he’ll is the grave, the physical hole in the ground. God doesn’t destroy any body lying in the grave. They decay naturally. Remember hell for you us not another place but the dirt hole. No one cares about their dead body decaying. No one is afraid of that. So that makes no sense.

    Now how is God destroying a soul while ur remains in the grave?
     
  9. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    That's what I mean sister he doesn't' destroy the soul in the grave but has the power to, he can destroy your soul at any time(as well as your tent of flesh), that is what the verse says. It's not speaking of the tent of flesh we now reside in(as if we should have any need to fear a useless husk being destroyed) but the soul that sleeps in Hell, that is what the Lord can destroy at any time, the soul is what no man has power to destroy. Do you understand?
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  10. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    If you look at this verse side ways, one could argue that the English suggest that both "hims" are doing the destroying in hell.....just one can only destroy the body, and the other can destroy both. so maybe we need to go a little deeper into the verse inside of remaining on the surface.
     
  11. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    If He can make this happen at any time, why mention hell at all if it’s just the grave? And all bodies are destroyed in the grave. All. No one is afraid of the body decaying in the grace. The verse says to fear him who can THROW you into hell. This makes no sense to tell people to be afraid of being thrown into the grave. Hell has to mean something else because the body being thrown in the grave is not done by God, always is destroyed and not by God and we all know it will happen to
    us no matter what.

    But Jesus said the body and soul, two separate things. And we are afraid of the body suffering which is clearly what the rich man in hell experienced. That was a description of body and soul being thrown in hell.

    That there are different words doesn’t mean different places. If friends decide to meet and one offers his pad or home or house or joint or place, doesn’t mean he’s offering 5 different locations.
     
  12. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    I don’t understand that above, We can look at this but if Jesus told us to fear something, it needs to be a fearful matter. The grave is not at all fearful. The descriptions of hell he gave are. They are not the same place from what i read.
     
  13. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    There is no eternal life for the wicked. Eternal life is granted only to the saved. You can not live forever in torment for there is no eternal life for the wicked. It is eternal death, not eternal dying.
    There is no such thing as an immortal soul--God alone is immortal.

    1Ti_1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
     
  14. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    red-strawberry-hat-wool-beret-girls-winter-wear20667.jpg
    MOD HAT ON
    This thread has been moved to the Controversial Christian Theology forum.
    Please note and abide by the SOP of this forum.

    MOD HAT OFF
     
  15. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    It is through the details that we learn GODS chartacter

    Detail:
    John 14:15 [Full Chapter]
    If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Do you love GOD?
     
  16. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    That is exactly what the wicked want. They will not be punished nor suffer for the evil they did but simply be “put to sleep” escaping all just punishment. The most evil people on earth very much hope and believe you are right. They can then go on being as evil as they like cause no just judgement is awaiting them.
     
  17. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Somethings are only learned if He explains them.
     
  18. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    1. He mentions it because a man only has power over you as long as you live and can destroy your body, afterward he has no power. But no matter the time the Lord can destroy you, while your alive(as men do) while your dead(in Hell) anywhere.
    It actually say destroy not throw. My statment still stands
    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    2. Yes because the body and soul are two separate things.

    3. The rich man was a figurative example not a literal occurrence.

    4. Yes it does, since each word means something different and each describe different places.
     
  19. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    1. It's not eternal life. It is eternal death/suffering and torment.

    Revelation 20:10
    928 [e] basanisthēsontai- βασανισθήσονται- they will be tormented
    2250 [e] hēmeras- ἡμέρας- day
    2532 [e] kai- καὶ- and
    3571 [e] nyktos- νυκτὸς- night
    1519 [e] eis- εἰς- for
    3588 [e] tous τοὺς the
    165 [e] aiōnas- αἰῶνας- ages
    3588 [e] tōn- τῶν- of the
    165 [e] aiōnōn- αἰώνων- ages

    All of those who are cast into the lake of fire will be tormented forever and ever which is to say without end. Forever in the original greek it was used in means in perpetuity or without end. Using a Strong's concordance you will find this to be true.

    Gre ek 165

    αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ - aión
    age, course, eternal, forever
    From the same as aei; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future) -- age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare chronos.


    Form the greek word aei.

    Greek 104.-ἀεί-aei
    always, unceasingly, perpetually; on every occasion.
    always, ever.
    From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); "ever,"by qualification regularly; by implication, earnestly; --always, ever.

    2. You cannot be tormented if you do not exist.

    The eternal destruction described in 2 Thess 1:9 is death, it is the second death. The second death is eternal destruction, torment, and separation from Yahweh. (Revelation 20:6,14-15) The death spoken of is the state of the wicked who are cast into the lake of fire. It is an eternal spiritual death, the perpetual torment of the wicked souls in the lake of fire.


    2288 thanatos
    death, physical or spiritual


    In the lake of fire there will be weeping and Gnashing of teeth, showing that those cast into the lake of Fire are well aware of the state which they are in. (Matt 13:42, Matt 8:12) The second death is not a complete and instant destruction but a prolonged form of punishment/destruction that will stretch into eternity.

    destruction.

    3639 olethros
    From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.


    The smoke that ascends, could not be from a complete consumption since they are ceaselessly being tormented, weeping, and Gnashing their teeth. Their destruction is everlasting, it comes

    from their pain, their torment, as they are being tortured day and night by the fire that is constantly consuming them but never putting out their existence or destroying them. So they never will achieve complete consumption as the fire of Sodom and Gomorrah did.

    Torment

    928. basanizó
    I examine, as by torture; I torment; I buffet, as of waves.
    pain, toil, torment
    From basanos; to torture -- pain, toil, torment, toss, vex



    And as I showed this Torment/destruction will be perpetual, that is to say without end.

    As I showed the fire that engulfed Sodom and Gomorrah was only to last for a time, an age, a certain duration that came to an end. The Smoke of their torment, that is the key part. With Sodom and Gomorrah it only lasted an age(Olam, age-long, and therefore partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, (also used of past time, or past and future as well)), a period of time and that time ended, but as I showed the fire that exists in the lake of fire will never be put out. ( Mark 9:44-48) And their torment will be day and night for eternity(Revelation 14:11, 20:10).

    3. God alone is immortal as in he cannot be destroyed. We are immortal just as the angels are, our soul/spirit is eternal.


    When a man dies his soul/spirit lives on and sleeps in the grave(Matt 9:24, Mark 5:39, Luke 8:52-53, 1 Kings 2:10, Acts 7:60, 1 Cor 15:6, John 5:28-29, Job 7:21, Job 14:10, Daniel 12:2, 1 Thessalonians 4:13).


    Strongs Concordance-5590. psuché

    soul, life, self
    from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul
    C.the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death

    This is the definition used in Matt 10:28, Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4, , Acts 2:27, 31. It is referring to an essence that is separate from the body and lives on after death(after the breath of life is given up) the soul is immortal. (1 Sam 28:11-20, 1 Peter 3:18-20, Revelation 6:9-11)

    The Spirit/soul of those dead are given up to be Judged at the Day of Judgment.
     
  20. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    But the body is always destroyed in the grave and no one is afraid of this. So hell cannot be the grave. It makes no sense.
    In Luke it says “throw” or “cast” not destroy. I know you don’t like it but that is what it says.
    The body is always destroyed in the grave but not by God so no need to fear that. But He can cast you into hell, a different place, where neither the body nor the worm dies not. That’s something to fear.
    No, it was a real occurance of real men. It otherwise is useless.
    No, the same thing can be described using different words. Home, house, domicile, pad, place can all be used to describe where I live. All.
     
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