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Does God desire everyone to be saved?

Discussion in 'Confessional, Covenantal, Creedal - Presbyterian' started by zoidar, Oct 5, 2019.

Does God desire everyone to be saved?

  1. God desires everyone to be saved, but He only elects some for salvation.

    5 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. God doesn't desire everyone to be saved, therefore He only elects some for salvation.

    8 vote(s)
    32.0%
  3. Other (explain)

    6 vote(s)
    24.0%
  4. If you aren't a reformed Christian, please vote here.

    6 vote(s)
    24.0%
  1. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Allow a clarification , please -

    DOing all that He Pleases, seems a completely different statement than "desiring" , and perhaps not correlated or related.

    For instance, parents(good and bad ones) with a dozen children might 'desire' a certain outcome or future for them....
    but also "allow" the children to go a different way than that outcome, right ?
     
  2. SeamusDelion

    SeamusDelion Calvinist Supporter

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    God does not open doors for those who "seek" Him.. God has already predestined and chose His Elect. Only His true Elect will seek after Him, once He grants them repentance, until then, no one seeks after the Lord.


    Psalm 14:2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.

    Romans 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

    Once God Grants repentance then we can repent, and Seek the Lord. It never happens by our own Will. but By Gods own WILL - Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,


    Hebrews 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

    2 Timothy 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

    Once we Repent we should now bare fruit in keeping with repentance.

    Matthew 3:8 Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

    The problem with your thought process is that you take credit for what God has done in your life. I would be very careful about that dangerous Armenian doctrine. If you had any choice or any part in you receiving salvation then Jesus died in vain... And that is a works based salvation. You do not have free will to do good until God has granted you repentance to do so, then once you have been granted it you can repent truly and seek after God. Until then you can not and will not. Man is born into sin and the dog will always go back to his vomit every time. Jesus did it all, and you have nothing to do with your salvation, not even "Choosing to follow Jesus".
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
  3. SeamusDelion

    SeamusDelion Calvinist Supporter

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    God does what He wants, not what you want Him to do. Your problem right here is that you believe everyone is Gods children. That is VERY incorrect. Let me show you:



    Romans 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” - Malachi 1:2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob

    Joshua 24:20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm and consume you, after having done you good.”

    Jesus says this about how we are to love God and how we are to receive Gods love in return (Conditional love) - Deuteronomy 5:10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
    Deuteronomy 19:9 provided you are careful to keep all this commandment, which I command you today, by loving the Lord your God and by walking ever in his ways—then you shall add three other cities to these three,

    Deuteronomy 30:16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.




    1 Kings 3:14 And if you will walk in my ways, keeping my statutes and my commandments, as your father David walked, then I will lengthen your days.”

    Exodus 20:6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.


    John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
    John 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
    John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

    So here, If we love God and are His children we will do His commandments and He will love us and be our Father. By default all the Elect will follow God. That's what He Elected us for.

    Now everyone is a child of God however and we see this here:

    Romans 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” - Malachi 1:2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
    Luke 8:21 But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”
    John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


    Hope this helps you
     
  4. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    This is very incorrect (your post here quoted). Perhaps you assumed something, or else got me mixed up with someone else ? This statement you make is not from nor about anything I ever posted.
     
  5. SeamusDelion

    SeamusDelion Calvinist Supporter

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    You said God does not do all He pleases.

    Also, not everyone being Gods children is VERY Biblical. Re-read the post. Why would Jesus say someones father is satan if God was their father?
     
  6. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    We want to only trust Christ Jesus, above all men. :) I know you know this.

    7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

    9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
     
  7. SeamusDelion

    SeamusDelion Calvinist Supporter

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    GOD’S PROMISE TO HIS CHILDREN DEMANDS IT

    Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened. (7:7–8)

    Here is one of the Lord’s greatest and most comprehensive promises to those who belong to Him, to those who are His children and citizens of His kingdom. In light of this great promise we can feel free to fully love others and totally sacrifice for others, because our heavenly Father sets the example in His generosity to us and promises that we have access to His eternal and unlimited treasure to meet our own needs as well as theirs. We can do for others what we would want done for ourselves (see v. 12) without fear of depleting the divine resources and having nothing left.
    Verses 7–11 make a perfect bridge between the negative teaching about a critical spirit and the positive teaching of the golden rule (v. 12). Even when we have been cleansed of our own sin—had the “log” removed from our eye—we need divine wisdom to know how to help a brother remove the “speck” from his eye (v. 5). And without God’s help we cannot be sure of who are “dogs” or “swine”—who are the false prophets and apostates to whom we should not offer the holy and precious things of God’s Word (v. 6). These considerations drive us to call on the Lord.
    Of the many things for which we should ask, seek, and knock, God’s wisdom is among our greatest needs. We cannot be discerning and discriminating without divine counsel from our heavenly Father; and the primary means for achieving such wisdom is petitioning prayer. “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all men generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him” (James 1:5).
    God gives us many principles in His Word, but He does not give specific methods or rules for every conceivable situation. For one thing, situations keep changing and vary greatly from age to age and person to person. To give specific rules for every circumstance would require a giant library of volumes. But even more important than that is God’s desire that we rely on Him directly. He wants us to be in His Word, and without being in His Word we cannot pray wisely or rightly.
    But even beyond our being in His Word, He wants us to be in fellowship with Him as our Father. Along with His perfect and infallible Word, we need His Spirit to interpret and illumine, to encourage and to strengthen. He does not want us to have all the answers in our hip pocket. The Bible is a limitless store of divine truth, which a lifetime of the most faithful and diligent study will not exhaust. But apart from God Himself we cannot even start to fathom its depths or mine its riches. In His Word God gives enough truth for us to be responsible, but enough mystery for us to be dependent. He gives us His Word not only to direct our lives but to draw our lives to Him.
    Here Jesus says, in effect, “If you want wisdom to know how to help a sinning brother and how to discern falsehood and apostasy, go to your heavenly Father. Ask, seek, and knock at the doors of heaven, and you will receive, find, and have the door opened.”
    Contrary to some popular interpretations, verses 7–8 are not a blank check for just anyone to present to God. First of all, the promise is valid only for believers. Throughout the Sermon on the Mount Jesus’ promises are addressed only to believers. A large mass of unbelievers, including some scribes and Pharisees, no doubt were in the multitude on the side of the mountain that day. In this sermon, however, Jesus always speaks of scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites, false prophets, insincere followers, and all other unbelievers in the third person—as if none of them were the direct target of His words. On other occasions (as in Matt. 23) the Lord addresses such persons directly; but during this message all of His references to them are indirect. He gives this sermon to His disciples (5:1–2), with the crowd listening in.
    Everyone refers to those who belong to the heavenly Father. Those who are not God’s children cannot come to Him as their Father. The two overriding relationships focused on in the book of Matthew are those of God’s kingdom and God’s family. The kingdom concept deals with rule, and the family concept deals with relationship. In the Sermon on the Mount the primary focus is on God’s family, and we see repeated references to God as heavenly Father (v. 11; cf. 5:16, 45, 48; 6:4, 8–9, 26, 32) and to fellow believers as brothers (5:22–24; 7:3–5).
    The two greatest realities of Christian truth are that God is our Father and Christians are our brothers. Believers are the family of God. Paul speaks of the church as the “household of the faith” (Gal. 6:10) and as “God’s household” (Eph. 2:19). John repeatedly speaks of God as our Father (1 John 1:2–3; 2:1, 13; 3:1; 4:14; etc.) and of believers as His children (1 John 3:10; 5:2) and as each other’s brothers (1 John 2:9–11; 3:10–12; 4:20; etc.).
    Second, the one who claims this promise must be living in obedience to his Father. “Whatever we ask we receive from Him,” John says, “because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight” (1 John 3:22).
    Third, our motive in asking must be right. “You ask and do not receive,” explains James, “because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures” (James 4:3). God does not obligate Himself to answer selfish, carnal requests from His children.
    Finally, we must be submissive to His will. If we are trying to serve both God and mammon (Matt. 6:24), we cannot claim this promise. “For let not that man expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways” (James 1:7–8). As John makes clear, “This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us” (1 John 5:14). To have confidence in answered prayer on any other basis is to have a false and presumptuous confidence that the Lord makes no promise to honour.
    Another possible qualification is perseverance, suggested by the present imperative tenses of ask, seek, and knock. The idea is that of continuance and constancy: “Keep on asking; keep on seeking; keep on knocking.” We also see a progression of intensity in the three verbs, from simple asking to the more aggressive seeking to the still more aggressive knocking. Yet none of the figures is complicated or obscure. The youngest child knows what it is to ask, seek, and knock.
    The progression in intensity also suggests that our sincere requests to the Lord are not to be passive. Whatever of His will we know to do we should be doing. If we are asking the Lord to help us find a job, we should be looking for a job ourselves while we await His guidance and provision. If we are out of food, we should be trying to earn money to buy it if we can. If we want help in confronting a brother about a sin, we should be trying to find out all we can about him and his situation and all we can about what God’s Word says on the subject involved. It is not faith but presumption to ask the Lord to provide more when we are not faithfully using what He has already given.
     
  8. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Hi friend. Good post!

    You won't need to preach salvation and key Christian understandings from the bible to me, as I've read fully through it and have been converted, and have long grown now in faith, so that I read now with real listening, where I silence all the conflicting doctrines, ideas, arguments, silence all my own agenda, put aside all the distractions, and stop talking over Him, and truly listen. :) God bless you, and have a good day!
     
  9. SeamusDelion

    SeamusDelion Calvinist Supporter

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    If you say you don't need to be taught then I am sorry that you feel that way. Even I still need to be taught. The reason for my reply was because you do not know the key doctrinal message and apply that verse to "Everyone" when it is clearly speaking to believers ONLY.

    Brother, my prayer is that you can study the context of the bible.

    God Bless.
     
  10. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    I'm happy to tell you that I learn every day from Christ. When I say to truly listen to Christ, that's what that means, among more. See? (if one does not listen, then they are not yet one of His sheep, not yet, we learn in the gospels)

    You will find many here, not a few, that are long in the faith and truly listen to Him, and can understand all you say because they've known it for years or even decades. It won't be well for you to assume you are the only Christian, or that your church is the only Christian church or denomination. You'll need to greet your brothers and sisters better than that! You'll be knowing them forever see. :)
     
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    This is false statement.

    I have frequently posted and told others that God does as He Pleases, and no one can stop Him unless He permits it... i.e. if He for instance listens to Moses (in the Scripture He Provides us) and spares His people... (which obviously was God's Plan all along, btw)....
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    This is a true statement with a false assumption. Apparently.
    Why you thought I disagreed with Scripture is in your own thinking.
     
  13. SeamusDelion

    SeamusDelion Calvinist Supporter

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    Where did I say I was the only Christian or that my church/denomination was the only one? ... I think you are putting words on my mouth now brother. I was simply correcting your mistake. I never said you were not a Christian, nor would I make that claim. How can I know your heart.
     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Who knows a man's heart ? (he might not even know himself).

    Yahweh.

    Who reveals what is in a man's heart?

    Yahweh.

    Who revealed what was in the two liars hearts in ACTS ?

    Yahweh.

    Who revealed anything/ everything else written in Scripture ?

    Yahweh.
     
  15. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Actually, if you look again at post #26, you may notice you assumed something I did not say... That would be good for you to notice, to discover, how you assumed an extra meaning onto my words.

    Even though it was not there. :)

    I not an arguing type, and you can argue if you like, and I won't respond. I'll just bless you as instructed in Scripture and be at peace and continuing to share the gospel wherever I can. Thanks to the Lord for our salvation!
     
  16. SeamusDelion

    SeamusDelion Calvinist Supporter

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    I'm not arguing with you. You said that I said I was the only christian there is or my church or denom was the only one. maybe take your own advice and stop being hypocritical?

    You have some serious flaws in your doctrine, and I was trying to help you understand context, however, you wish for me not to preach to you because you clearly "understand"

    I don't see any further reason to continue this conversation.

    Have a good day.
     
  17. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    As I already wrote above, I definitely accept that others that have some different understandings or ideas about obscure things like free will and election are definitely Christian if they believe.

    They are not lost and in need of confrontation.

    All scripture is true.

    As always, and as many here in the forums could confirm that I have written so many times -- all who believe in Christ, risen, as their Savior, are part of the Body of Christ. All.
     
  18. SeamusDelion

    SeamusDelion Calvinist Supporter

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    So then we can count in Mormons and Jehovah Witness's as part of the body then?
     
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  19. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    As best I understand, not at all being competent (no mortal here is) to judge individuals' hearts and real beliefs and such, those that do repent and believe in Christ as their Savior, Christ risen, for the forgiveness of their sins, as the very Son of God, just as in John 3:16, will from that faith and repentance be forgiven their sins. But none of us so far as I understand can judge individuals, because we cannot know all about them or their real hearts. So we might speculate that some individuals in all sorts of churches that have doctrinal errors will nevertheless come to Christ in the true way and be saved.
     
  20. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    No need to study people.

    The Father in heaven is the Righteous One, He directs our steps - the steps of all in the body of Christ Jesus Today. He reveals and provides all that is needed generously, all that is needed for life, for salvation in this life, and in the life to come.

    He says no need to speculate - HE CHOOSES for Himself people out of every nation/ out of every people (i.e. every group) FOR HIMSELF - sets them apart for His OWn Testimony (partly so no one can say they did not have equal opportunity - as if the group they were in prevented being saved or whatever)....

    WHOEVER , in any group, in any country or family, turns to Yahweh may be saved, may find Him, as HE Himself Says in Scripture.

    Many people HAVE ALREADY been saved out of doctirnal errors (Martin Luther being one of the most widely known, right?!) ,
    out of corrupt countries, out of deceptive practices and so forth - and they testified to this the rest of their life, as long as they remained in Christ Jesus !

    David Bercot was a good example ("Will the Real Heretics Please Stand up") ...
    When he got saved, in Jesus, he thought he was the last one in his church to get saved (I happened also to experience this)....
    He was eight years old (give or take) when His heart was circumcised by God. His life totally changed, from the inside out).
    For almost or about eight more years, he remained in his birth family and church, thiinking they were saved, not knowing otherwise. And they all thought he was till a part of them also, as he had been taught while being raised.....

    Later, when they found out he was truly saved, and he found out they were not, they (his church nd his family) kicked him out.

    God saved him in spite of totally contrary circumstances.
     
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