Does God care about free will?

[Athée]

In many conversations between believers and non believers the question of free will is of utmost importance.

I am asking for the strongest possible case to be made that God cares about the free will of humans. Such a case should deal with instances where God seems content to override human free will such as with the Pharaoh, predestination, sending delusions (2 thessalonians) etc., as well as make a positive case for the conclusion.

To be clear, I am no longer a believer but when I was, I offered the free will defence regularly as an explanation for all kinds of challenges to the faith. Now that I no longer believe, I am no longer convinced that this defence is as solid as I had imagined it to be.

That said I may well be wrong on this. It could be the case that God has clearly laid out that human free will is important to him and I am simply unaware.

So Christians out there (Or non Christians who have the goods!) make the case, no straw men please, I am looking for a man of steel!

Peace

 

[Commander Xenophon]

A strawman argument is an intentional mischaracterization of the argument of your opponent. Not relevant here, yet, hopefully...

As far as free will is concerned, we Orthodox believe in it, while Calvinists do not.

 

[Athée]

A strawman argument is an intentional mischaracterization of the argument of your opponent. Not relevant here, yet, hopefully...

As far as free will is concerned, we Orthodox believe in it, while Calvinists do not.

Indeed, I am hoping no straw men will appear for our consideration
So what case do you make that the Calvinist is mistaken about free will?

 

[cloudyday2]

Can we narrow the definition of free will to the choices that Christian apologists care about?
I'm thinking:
- the choice to do evil
- the choice to accept Jesus as savior / be baptized / or whatever is needed for salvation
- what else?

 

[Athée]

Can we narrow the definition of free will to the choices that Christian apologists care about?
I'm thinking:
- the choice to do evil
- the choice to accept Jesus as savior / be baptized / or whatever is needed for salvation
- what else?

I certainly think those will be central to the discussion but I think we should leave the door open to other examples of free will as well as it allows for a greater range of potentially helpful analogies.

 

[katerinah1947]

In many conversations between believers and non believers the question of free will is of utmost importance.

I am asking for the strongest possible case to be made that God cares about the free will of humans. Such a case should deal with instances where God seems content to override human free will such as with the Pharaoh, predestination, sending delusions (2 thessalonians) etc., as well as make a positive case for the conclusion.

To be clear, I am no longer a believer but when I was, I offered the free will defence regularly as an explanation for all kinds of challenges to the faith. Now that I no longer believe, I am no longer convinced that this defence is as solid as I had imagined it to be.

That said I may well be wrong on this. It could be the case that God has clearly laid out that human free will is important to him and I am simply unaware.

So Christians out there (Or non Christians who have the goods!) make the case, no straw men please, I am looking for a man of steel!

Peace

Hi,

Are women of jello allowed?

About twenty years ago, while trying to see if anybody had proved that God did not exist, I was still searching for a proof, actively, and hedging my belief in God, bets.

I mean, that I was forcing myself to go to church despite having zero belief in God. At least I think I had zero belief then.

Anyway, on a Protestant radio station I heard something, and knew it was a free will item.

Do this or do not do this was there.

I decided to do that, and in a total Christian way, I kept it a secret from everyone.

Well one day, about twelve years ago now, I cannot do something, as it is just too unbelievable. Stuck in one place standing, I soon noticed a piece of paper on the floor.

There is precisely no reason for a piece of paper to be on the floor. Curious, I pick it up trying to figure out why it was there.

It was small and folded. Opening it, I read the words. Then I knew what it was, but not how it got there. It came out of the deep recesses of my own wallet.

The words on the paper were this:

From today on I do the Will of God everywhere, always and in everything.

Wow! God had answered my prayer.

I had no idea if that paper would work.

After putting it back in my wallet, tucked in the same deep place, I went and did that next item.

Years later, after an event that turned me into a full blown mystic, I found another mystic and we compared notes. (Most Mystics hide out, afraid to talk.)

She was frighten out of her wits almost, and I calmed her down quickly.

On free will, the only difference between us, is Jesus always asks her first, if she will suffer for Him.

Everything else we do for God is pretty much the same.

Her ticket for the train was correct.

For everything God asks us to do, whether it is Jesus, God The Father, The Holy Spirit or Mary, what non mystics might call graces, they are given, so the mystic is fully prepared to do the task at hand, until the task is done. This repeats for every new task.

LOVE,

 

[Moral Orel]

From my interactions with Christians, both Calvinists and non, it seems like if you take the Bible at it's most direct and literal word, then we don't have free will. But since so much of the Bible is open to interpretation, why not interpret those direct statements of predestiny to just mean that God knows the future, so he knows who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell, and it is going to happen, but still only because we choose to.

However, it cannot be argued that God will never tamper with anyone's free will. As you stated, He did it with Pharaoh, and another verse says, "He hardens who He hardens" (I forget where). So you have to consider this:

There is a chance that for some reason unbeknownst to me, God has hardened my heart and made me a non-believer against my will. Perhaps my anti-religious rants and persistent pessimism about Christianity will inspire some soon-to-be preacher that will bring thousands to The Lord, and my one little soul is simply not as important as all the souls that will be saved. So I may be sacrificed by God, to Hell, for the sake of others.

 

[Hammster]

In many conversations between believers and non believers the question of free will is of utmost importance.

I am asking for the strongest possible case to be made that God cares about the free will of humans. Such a case should deal with instances where God seems content to override human free will such as with the Pharaoh, predestination, sending delusions (2 thessalonians) etc., as well as make a positive case for the conclusion.

To be clear, I am no longer a believer but when I was, I offered the free will defence regularly as an explanation for all kinds of challenges to the faith. Now that I no longer believe, I am no longer convinced that this defence is as solid as I had imagined it to be.

That said I may well be wrong on this. It could be the case that God has clearly laid out that human free will is important to him and I am simply unaware.

So Christians out there (Or non Christians who have the goods!) make the case, no straw men please, I am looking for a man of steel!

Peace

We are free to act according to our natures.

 

[katerinah1947]

From my interactions with Christians, both Calvinists and non, it seems like if you take the Bible at it's most direct and literal word, then we don't have free will. But since so much of the Bible is open to interpretation, why not interpret those direct statements of predestiny to just mean that God knows the future, so he knows who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell, and it is going to happen, but still only because we choose to.

However, it cannot be argued that God will never tamper with anyone's free will. As you stated, He did it with Pharaoh, and another verse says, "He hardens who He hardens" (I forget where). So you have to consider this:

There is a chance that for some reason unbeknownst to me, God has hardened my heart and made me a non-believer against my will. Perhaps my anti-religious rants and persistent pessimism about Christianity will inspire some soon-to-be preacher that will bring thousands to The Lord, and my one little soul is simply not as important as all the souls that will be saved. So I may be sacrificed by God, to Hell, for the sake of others.

Hi,

Wow, God loves you. He can't not after those pretty words.

Even my eyes are slightly wet. I am trying to figure o... Oh! Your understanding of The Bible in some ways is beyond perfect.

That cannot be, unless you know God, and merely He is not letting you know that, Yet.

The Holy Spirit, GAVE you those answers.

You know God, in some ways. You know Him.

LOVE,

 

[-57]

The question I always ask is this....If one has free-will concerning choosing Jesus or not choosing Jesus...what is that choice based upon?

I think the answer would be life's experience. Who you have listened to, who you have believed or not believed. Your lifestyle, IQ, where you grew up.

So, the evangelist ask, "who wants to accept Jesus tonight?" The man in the audience thinks and says to himself...the professor made pretty good sense in his last lecture about there not being a God. I'll pass on Jesus. OR, the man might not have ever heard the professor and been convinced of there being no need for God. So he said, I'll choose Jesus.

I don't think the bible bases our choice for salvation on happenstance. If you were lucky enough to hear this guy or that guy preach...which is what free-will calls for. So, once again, if you think you chose your salvation in Jesus...what did you base that choice on? What happenstance in life allowed to to make that choice?

OR...is it God who called, draws, quickens you, regenerates you and gave you to Jesus....and you had nothing to do with it.

 

[Athée]

The question I always ask is this....If one has free-will concerning choosing Jesus or not choosing Jesus...what is that choice based upon?

I think the answer would be life's experience. Who you have listened to, who you have believed or not believed. Your lifestyle, IQ, where you grew up.

So, the evangelist ask, "who wants to accept Jesus tonight?" The man in the audience thinks and says to himself...the professor made pretty good sense in his last lecture about there not being a God. I'll pass on Jesus. OR, the man might not have ever heard the professor and been convinced of there being no need for God. So he said, I'll choose Jesus.

I don't think the bible bases our choice for salvation on happenstance. If you were lucky enough to hear this guy or that guy preach...which is what free-will calls for. So, once again, if you think you chose your salvation in Jesus...what did you base that choice on? What happenstance in life allowed to to make that choice?

OR...is it God who called, draws, quickens you, regenerates you and gave you to Jesus....and you had nothing to do with it.

I am not a Bible scholar by any stretch but this seems consistent with what I read in the Bible. That is, that God is the prime mover of salvation and that some lucky humans are just along for the ride. I am tempted to just launch from here into objections to God's plan but I think it will be important to wait a bit and see if any one is able to make the case that God cares about our free will

 

[-57]

I am not a Bible scholar by any stretch but this seems consistent with what I read in the Bible. That is, that God is the prime mover of salvation and that some lucky humans are just along for the ride. I am tempted to just launch from here into objections to God's plan but I think it will be important to wait a bit and see if any one is able to make the case that God cares about our free will

The closest I can get is that if we have free-will to choose Jesus....God presents Jesus to us in a fashion that we won't reject Jesus.

 

[katerinah1947]

I am not a Bible scholar by any stretch but this seems consistent with what I read in the Bible. That is, that God is the prime mover of salvation and that some lucky humans are just along for the ride. I am tempted to just launch from here into objections to God's plan but I think it will be important to wait a bit and see if any one is able to make the case that God cares about our free will

Hi,

Although from a Mystical reference, Free Will in my case is all there is.

Although from a post Mystical perspective, we absolutely have free will, leading by God is there in all lives, whether Religios or not.

I am allowed to do this, by God: His Will, everywhere always and in everything.

I chose that. It was offered. I chose. Then it was. I did not notice at first.

After years of doing that, God's Will, and never ever being asked, one day I was asked something.

I was asked something by God The Father, through an angel. Later, for you so you don't have to wonder, I was told who spoke, as it was not God The Father's personal speaking voice that time, and as I did not recognize who or what that person was.

The name given to me was Gabriel.

I chose, again, and then it was.

In my case, I get to choose.

Much of my life, although mystical and sometimes Mystical, is choosing after awareness.

But, I don't always get to choose.

I never remember choosing to search for God.

I do remember being called as a child, only I did not like the consequences of following God.

I tried to both not reject God, nor to be involved with Him.

The reason for that, is I was told of this woman who was bedridden by God, for God.

I saw her Mystically.

I saw the white of her, meaning that God is doing this to her, for some wonderful purpose.

I knew her pain and suffering, and I wanted no part of the latter.

The God part is fine. If that's what it takes to know God, NO. NO NO NO. No. No, I wanted no part of that.

I was called anyway.

LOVE,

 

[cloudyday2]

If God cared about free will (particularly with respect to choosing to be saved), then God should ensure that every human is provided with the knowledge to make an informed choice. Instead, we see a lot of people that have limited knowledge or no knowledge about Christianity. Therefore, God does not exist, or God does not care about free will with respect to being saved. (I use the word "saved" broadly. Catholics might mean one thing, and Baptists might mean something else. Whatever you think "saved" means, God doesn't seem to care much it seems.) IDK

 

[katerinah1947]

If God cared about free will (particularly with respect to choosing to be saved), then God should ensure that every human is provided with the knowledge to make an informed choice. Instead, we see a lot of people that have limited knowledge or no knowledge about Christianity. Therefore, God does not exist, or God does not care about free will with respect to being saved. (I use the word "saved" broadly. Catholics might mean one thing, and Baptists might mean something else. Whatever you think "saved" means, God doesn't seem to care much it seems.) IDK

Hi,

Your statement is:

, If God cared about free will...... . Therefore, God does not exist, or .... God does not care about free will with respect to being saved. (...God doesn't seem to care much it seems.)

LOVE,

 

[com7fy8]

He wants us to treat one another like each of us has a free will >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

We are not to try to just use anybody, or force or charm or deceive, but expect each person to make choices.

So, in our everyday practical relating @Athée we need to relate like each of us has a free will.

 

[danny ski]

Free will is a foundation of the relationship between Gd and man. It's set in in the story of Adam and spelled out in a conversation between Cain and Gd.

 

[cloudyday2]

Hi,

Your statement is:

LOVE,

I'm not sure what you are asking, but let me clarify my argument. I am guessing that you want clarification.

Assume:
(1) God exists
(2) God wants each human to exercise his/her free will - especially on the question of accepting salvation from Jesus.
(3) Free will requires a complete understanding of the alternatives. A person making a choice with incomplete understanding is not fully exercising free will. For example, a person who is tricked by a conman is not freely choosing to be tricked.

These assumptions imply that God wants every human to completely understand the choice of accepting salvation from Jesus.

However, vast numbers of humans do NOT completely understand the choice of accepting salvation from Jesus.

Therefore one of the assumptions was false (proof by contradiction)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_contradiction

Hopefully that clarifies my argument. After reading the earlier post, I can see how it would have confused most people.

 

[katerinah1947]

I'm not sure what you are asking, but let me clarify my argument. I am guessing that you want clarification.

Assume:
(1) God exists
(2) God wants each human to exercise his/her free will - especially on the question of accepting salvation from Jesus.
(3) Free will requires a complete understanding of the alternatives. A person making a choice with incomplete understanding is not fully exercising free will. For example, a person who is tricked by a conman is not freely choosing to be tricked.

These assumptions imply that God wants every human to completely understand the choice of accepting salvation from Jesus.

However, vast numbers of humans do NOT completely understand the choice of accepting salvation from Jesus.

Therefore one of the assumptions was false (proof by contradiction)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_contradiction

Hopefully that clarifies my argument. After reading the earlier post, I can see how it would have confused most people.

Hi,

Yes that is more clear.

This part is incorrect:

However, vast numbers of humans do NOT completely understand the choice of accepting salvation from Jesus.

A key feature of God is that He says that everyone will see Jesus. Jesus upon their death.

It also says, that my fate, being judged, will be their fate, being judged.

No where in that conversation, were details about accepting the person before them, and it's pretty hard to deny what is before your eyes at that point. (Historically. Anyone who has seen Jesus, has never been able to deny that in any credible capacity.)

As far as I know, it is what you did, with what you knew and what you were presented in life with.

Still in that meeting what is there, is not Catholicism or any ism, it is were you as just and rightious, where those two words mean the same thing, as you could be, given your life circumstances, and your humanity.

Humanity here means, all our human failings.

That is my take on things.

It looks like you will be totally right, in that what they did not know upon meeting Jesus, they will know then.

And, they will totally understand what is being discussed.

Your assumption, is that people are not fully informed, before their fate is sealed.

That later part, people not being fully informed after they die, is incorrect Christian teachings.

LOVE,

 

[Moral Orel]

Your understanding of The Bible in some ways is beyond perfect.

Who am I, as a clay pot, to tell the clay maker what he should do with his clay pots? Some he smashes on the floor, some he places nicely on a shelf.