Does God already know if we are going to Heaven or Hell? My answer is no.

[enoch son]

Free will is in the bible... every place the bible says "choose" it is free will. Otherwise there could be no choice.
In fact, the bible makes no sense at all without free will.

Can God override someone's ability to choose, can he override their will.. sure, that is completely within the scope of his ability, and it appears that he did exactly that with Pharoh at the time of Moses.

However, there is no real evidence scripturally that God operates that way normally.
Further, God does not need to override our wills in order to have his plans come to pass. He is fully capable of accounting for whatever we choose to do and making it serve his purposes and plans.

As to the parable... of course wheat is planted as wheat... what else would it be planted as? You are making the assumption that the planting of the wheat refers to your creation/birth, rather than your conversion. That is found no where in the parable, in fact it goes against the implications of the other parables.

In the parable of the sower, which deals with the same imagery, the seed which is planted represents the word of God and when it grows up as wheat, it represents the word of God bearing fruit within the people to whom it was preached. This parable clearly, and strongly implies that people can receive the word and, make a start in the faith and still fail to bear fruit (ie come to fulfillment of salvation).

Wheat in the new testament is often symbolic of the Church specifically, not just individual believers. This is the case in the parable you reference. It refers to false believers and deceivers being planted in the Church to make trouble.

Eph. 1;4 chose strong # 1586 to select-make choice, choose out, chosen
So what you are saying is your choice tops God's choice. I don't think one can get any more way from God being the all in all then think he or she can top a choice made by God. Who's on the throne in the temple the person or God?
Hint the one holding Him back is not the holy spirit but the free will doctrine of the man.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Yes He does know who will go and who will not . . .

 

[Cassidy]

We can choose but that doesn't mean we have the free will to choose.

 

[Cassidy]

Free will is in the bible... every place the bible says "choose" it is free will. Otherwise there could be no choice.
In fact, the bible makes no sense at all without free will.

Can God override someone's ability to choose, can he override their will.. sure, that is completely within the scope of his ability, and it appears that he did exactly that with Pharoh at the time of Moses.

However, there is no real evidence scripturally that God operates that way normally.
Further, God does not need to override our wills in order to have his plans come to pass. He is fully capable of accounting for whatever we choose to do and making it serve his purposes and plans.

As to the parable... of course wheat is planted as wheat... what else would it be planted as? You are making the assumption that the planting of the wheat refers to your creation/birth, rather than your conversion. That is found no where in the parable, in fact it goes against the implications of the other parables.

In the parable of the sower, which deals with the same imagery, the seed which is planted represents the word of God and when it grows up as wheat, it represents the word of God bearing fruit within the people to whom it was preached. This parable clearly, and strongly implies that people can receive the word and, make a start in the faith and still fail to bear fruit (ie come to fulfillment of salvation).

Wheat in the new testament is often symbolic of the Church specifically, not just individual believers. This is the case in the parable you reference. It refers to false believers and deceivers being planted in the Church to make trouble.

Where does it say that it's about conversion? Christ interpreted the parable himself and said nothing of what you have said here. Go back and read Christ's interpretation and leave yours out of it.

 

[enoch son]

We can choose but that doesn't mean we have the free will to choose.

the question is if God has all ready choosen then what choice could be left or even come to one's mind that can top what God has said will come to past?

 

[Strong in Him]

We can choose but that doesn't mean we have the free will to choose.

That's what free will is surely - the ability to choose, make your own mind up, not being forced into anything.
The opposite of that is NOT being able to choose; like babies being fed whatever their mothers decide they are going to have, vaccinated, sent to Sunday school, brought up in a cult or whatever. People with learning disabilities/Alzheimer's may find it too - they are unable to make a choice, so someone does it for them.

 

[Strong in Him]

the question is if God has all ready choosen then what choice could be left or even come to one's mind that can top what God has said will come to past?

It depends what you're saying God has chosen.
If it's the way of salvation; yes, he has chosen that salvation is through Jesus and accepting his death on the cross. There is no alternative. It's not possible for any of us to bargain with God or ask him to choose another way. We can choose whether or not to accept him and his love, but we can't choose to get to heaven by our good works, for example; it's not possible. There are other things that we can't choose - we can't choose if we want Jesus to return, or to intercede for us. He will and he does. We can choose whether or not to receive the Spirit, but we can't choose whether or not the Spirit gives us gifts, makes us like Jesus or leads us into all truth. That's what he does.

But if your saying that God has already chosen that we will be a teacher/missionary/doctor/shop assistant and therefore we can't change it, I'm not sure that I agree. He KNOWS what we will do, and has a plan for each of us, but he won't force us to do it.

 

[oflightsource]

He's God, of cause He knows. He is not restricted by time and space. There can't be prophecy in the bible if he does not stand outside of time and space.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Where does it say that it's about conversion? Christ interpreted the parable himself and said nothing of what you have said here. Go back and read Christ's interpretation and leave yours out of it.

All Jesus says in the interpetation of this parable is that the seed sown in the field represents the sons of the kingdom of heaven.

You are suggesting that this implies people are some how created/born predestined into the catagory of "sons of the kingdom of heaven". Jesus never says this... so perhaps in your own words you should "Go back and read Christ's interpetation" and "leave yours out of it".

If I'm not allowed to think about and come up with ideas about what Jesus' parable and his interpetation means.. then neither are you.


But, for the sake of discussion, I'm curious... if Jesus words here do mean that people are born predestined as "sons of the kingdom of heaven"... (these people being planted by The Son of Man ie Jesus Christ).

What does it mean then that the tares are planted by the Devil???

You've established that the planting of the seeds refers to them being born/created into the world with the role of wheat or tare... So if the devil is the one who does the planting.. it must mean that the devil is the one who caused those people to be born into the world?

so those people who are tares, were created/predestined by the devil and that it is infact the devil that placed them in this world.

This is definetly something new to me... do you infact believe that there are an entire group of people who were not created by God but infact were created by the devil and placed into this world by the devil?

 

[Simon_Templar]

We can choose but that doesn't mean we have the free will to choose.

....



....

oh never mind...

 

[enoch son]

It depends what you're saying God has chosen.
If it's the way of salvation; yes, he has chosen that salvation is through Jesus and accepting his death on the cross. There is no alternative. It's not possible for any of us to bargain with God or ask him to choose another way. We can choose whether or not to accept him and his love, but we can't choose to get to heaven by our good works, for example; it's not possible. There are other things that we can't choose - we can't choose if we want Jesus to return, or to intercede for us. He will and he does. We can choose whether or not to receive the Spirit, but we can't choose whether or not the Spirit gives us gifts, makes us like Jesus or leads us into all truth. That's what he does.

But if your saying that God has already chosen that we will be a teacher/missionary/doctor/shop assistant and therefore we can't change it, I'm not sure that I agree. He KNOWS what we will do, and has a plan for each of us, but he won't force us to do it.

Your post is not of the word. eph. 1;11 "having predestined according to His purpose who works AlL things after the COUNSEL of His WiLL.
Gee I don't see god saying this person or that person is not under His will.

 

[enoch son]

We can choose but that doesn't mean we have the free will to choose.

I agree one way or the other God's will, will come to past. One is the flesh which is death the other the spirit of life. adam or christ I wonder who will win that one?

 

[Cassidy]

the question is if God has all ready choosen then what choice could be left or even come to one's mind that can top what God has said will come to past?

Nothing

That's what free will is surely - the ability to choose, make your own mind up, not being forced into anything.
The opposite of that is NOT being able to choose; like babies being fed whatever their mothers decide they are going to have, vaccinated, sent to Sunday school, brought up in a cult or whatever. People with learning disabilities/Alzheimer's may find it too - they are unable to make a choice, so someone does it for them.

No our choices are limited to our natures. Sheep do what Sheep do, goats do what goats do. Sheep have free will to do what sheep do, they do not have free will to do what goats do.

Like a mouse in a mouse maze....they have free will to go wherever the maze allows them to go, but they are still limited to that maze.

All Jesus says in the interpetation of this parable is that the seed sown in the field represents the sons of the kingdom of heaven.

You are suggesting that this implies people are some how created/born predestined into the catagory of "sons of the kingdom of heaven". Jesus never says this... so perhaps in your own words you should "Go back and read Christ's interpetation" and "leave yours out of it".

I'm saying what Christ said, God planted the wheat and the enemy planted the tares amongst the wheat.

I

f I'm not allowed to think about and come up with ideas about what Jesus' parable and his interpetation means.. then neither are you.

We're in agreeance then?

But, for the sake of discussion, I'm curious... if Jesus words here do mean that people are born predestined as "sons of the kingdom of heaven"... (these people being planted by The Son of Man ie Jesus Christ).

What does it mean then that the tares are planted by the Devil???

What did Christ say the tares were planted by?

You've established that the planting of the seeds refers to them being born/created into the world with the role of wheat or tare... So if the devil is the one who does the planting.. it must mean that the devil is the one who caused those people to be born into the world?

so those people who are tares, were created/predestined by the devil and that it is infact the devil that placed them in this world.

This is definetly something new to me... do you infact believe that there are an entire group of people who were not created by God but infact were created by the devil and placed into this world by the devil?

I'm just saying what Christ said and leaving my interpretation out of it....since he's already interpreted it. The field is the world, the wheat are the sons of the kingdom and the tares are the sons of the wicked one...that's what Jesus said.

 

[Cassidy]

Your post is not of the word. eph. 1;11 "having predestined according to His purpose who works AlL things after the COUNSEL of His WiLL.
Gee I don't see god saying this person or that person is not under His will.

After God's will...that's interesting. Kinda doesn't leave much will for us...let alone free will.

 

[Lively Stone]

My answer is yes...the parable of the wheat and the tares tells us this. He has planted the wheat and it's the wheat that will be harvested. He knows who are His.

I agree. He knows now whose name is written in the Book of Life. He wrote it.

 

[Lively Stone]

I wonder if any of you who think God has already predetermined where everybody spends eternity even bother praying for your family or friends who don't know Jesus to accept Jesus. Or even bother witnessing or preaching the gospel to those who don't know Jesus.

What would be the point if you actually believed everything was already predetermined. There would be no point since none of your prayers, preaching or witness would matter. Since you say everything is already predetermined.

Why wouldn't we? We don't know what God knows, do we?

That is a VERY DANGEROUS mindset to have.

There wouldn't even be a point in serving God or fearing God since according to your beliefs where you spend eternity is already predetermined.

You could do whatever you want without any consequences since it is already predetermined where you go.

Again a very dangerous mindset to have.

Those who understand predestination don't think like you suggest.
People who think they can do whatever they want because everything is predetermined are stupid. They don't know what the predetermination is, do they?

 

[Simon_Templar]

I'm saying what Christ said, God planted the wheat and the enemy planted the tares amongst the wheat.

No, your not... and thats the problem. You can't tell the difference between your inferences and the facts (ie what the text actually says as opposed to what you think it says).

You are making an assumption that you yourself apparently can't see.

The simple line in your quote above is what the text says. God (Jesus) planted the wheat seed and the enemy planted the tares. Thats what Jesus said. The idea that this equals predestination is completely your own insertion. What the planting itself means is never stated. Wether it means creating, being born, predestining, or simply being sent out on a mission, is never said. Nor is it implied. It could mean any of those things.

You are assuming that the Son of Man sowing the good seeds into the world is God predestining people to believe. This is never stated, nor implied. It could just as easily and logically mean that Jesus is sending his followers out into the world.

The reason I asked about the devil and his role in my previous post is this. Whatever planting the seeds means (if it infact was intended to represent anything specific at all) it must mean the same thing for both cases (ie when Jesus plants and when the devil plants).

So, if you are going to apply a meaning to the planting (Which Jesus does not do) you must apply one that makes sense for both Jesus planting AND the devil planting.

So, if Jesus planting means he predestined... then it must also mean the devil predestined. If it means Jesus caused the good seed to be born, then it must also mean that the devil caused the bad seed to be born. If it means that Jesus created those who are the good seed, then it must also mean that the devil created those who are the bad seed.

The question is... do any of those ideas match up against what the rest of scripture says? Does the devil predestine people? Does the devil cause people to be born? Does the devil create people?

I don't think any of those ideas are biblically supportable or tennable. Thus I don't think any of them are vaild INTERPETATIONS of what the act of planting means in this parable.

The key point again being that what the planting means IS NEVER DIRECTLY STATED.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Those who understand predestination

Herein lies your problem... no one understands predestination. I realize that you are responding to Dennis' mischaracterization of your beliefs, which I understand.

However the point bears examining. The fact is no one understands predestination and anyone who thinks they do, I guarentee you, knows far less about it than they think they do.

You might have a concept of a doctrine that you understand, or at least think you do.... but the actual 'fact', or even the concept and all its ramifications and implications... not a chance.


There are scriptures that talk about and use the word 'predestination'. However, the reality of 'predestination' as most know it and 'understand' it is simply a set of doctrines which are logical extensions of other doctrinal conclusions. I don't know if your a TULIP adherent but the idea that most people have of predestination is simply a doctrine which is basically a logical summary of the doctrines that make up TULIP and their antecedants.

That doesn't remotely come close to explaining what predestination actually is in reality or how it works, or anything like that.

 

[enoch son]

After God's will...that's interesting. Kinda doesn't leave much will for us...let alone free will.

I have found that the free will thing is giving glory to the thing the frist adam did. I think god said no and set up the second adam. I for one I'm of the second adam and not the frist. I will give glory to God.

 

[enoch son]

Herein lies your problem... no one understands predestination. I realize that you are responding to Dennis' mischaracterization of your beliefs, which I understand.

However the point bears examining. The fact is no one understands predestination and anyone who thinks they do, I guarentee you, knows far less about it than they think they do.

You might have a concept of a doctrine that you understand, or at least think you do.... but the actual 'fact', or even the concept and all its ramifications and implications... not a chance.


There are scriptures that talk about and use the word 'predestination'. However, the reality of 'predestination' as most know it and 'understand' it is simply a set of doctrines which are logical extensions of other doctrinal conclusions. I don't know if your a TULIP adherent but the idea that most people have of predestination is simply a doctrine which is basically a logical summary of the doctrines that make up TULIP and their antecedants.

That doesn't remotely come close to explaining what predestination actually is in reality or how it works, or anything like that.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean God hasn't shown it to others.