Does God already know if we are going to Heaven or Hell? My answer is no.

[Cassidy]

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

2 peter 3:9 tells us that God is not willing that any should perish. He wants ALL to come to repentence.

So God's plan is for EVERBODY to go to Heaven. He wants ALL to come to repentence, but we have FREE WILL weather to follow God's Plan, and except jesus and go to Heaven or to reject Jesus, and go to Hell, but God's will, and plan is for ALL to come to repentence, but each of us has Free Will weather to accept God's plan or not.

The parable goes that the farmer went out and sowed some seeds and while he slept the enemy came and sowed tares amongst the wheat. Jesus then interpreted that parable by saying that the wheat were God's children that the farmer was God and the enemy was the evil one. That the field was the world and that harvest was the end of the world.

Now why would Christ tell us that we were sown as wheat? God knew who was His since before the foundations of the world.....doesn't sound much like we have free will to me. Especially since this 'free will' thing isn't even in the bible.

 

[GrowingInGrace]

Genesis 6 -

At the same time that was going on there was Noah, a witness in the earth of pleasing God. His building of the ark testified against the wicked people.

Before verse 5- 7 of Genesis 6 is verse 3. "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

God knew of the wickedness and set 120 years for them to continue. That is the amount of time that it took Noah to build the ark. All the time that those wicked people were being wicked God was implementing his plan. It grieved him to have to do it. But in order to curtail the rampant evil he had to cleanse the earth of it.

Luke 2 -

When Jesus was on the earth he was not in his God capacity. Not at that time part of the Godhead.
He was a man like any other man. He continually called himself the son of man, and attributed everything to his Father. The mighty works and miracles he did by relying on the power of the Holy Spirit.

He had to be a man in order to die on the cross in behalf of sinners.

Philippians 2 -

There is a difference between "predetermined" and "automatic".

If after your salvation you did not exhibit some changes then it would be thought by others that you were not saved. Or else a babe in Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:1.

The salvation hidden in your heart is supposed to be seen on the outside in your speech and actions.
As stated in 1 Peter 3: 3- 4, And Romans 12:2.

There is a predetermination from God's perspective, in the copy you have of the Bible. Psalm 139:16, "Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them."

Our Christian lives are predetermined through all that Christ Jesus already did for each of us.

Romans 8:29, "Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of God's dear Son."
Other scriptures of predestination are, Ephesians 1:5, 11.

 

[Cassidy]

This is just nonsense.

In the first place, you haven't demonstrated either through Scripture or reasoned argument that God does indeed choose to limit His own omniscience. So even if His power gives Him the ability to turn His knowledge on and off, there's no proof that He ever, in fact, does that.

Theoretically speaking, it might be possible for God to limit His abilities in such a way as you suggest. But that is not proof that He chooses to do so.

However, your argument is inherently illogical. You suggest that God can "choose to use His omniscience any way He wants." But if God chooses to limit His omniscience, then He wouldn't be omniscient anymore - so He wouldn't be "using" that omniscience (which He no longer has).

You cannot have it both ways. Either God knows everything or He doesn't. And even if His not-knowing is by His choice, He still wouldn't be omniscient anymore.

All you manage to do is create a logical paradox akin to asking if God can create a rock too heavy for Him to lift.

 

[Strong in Him]

So God's plan is for EVERBODY to go to Heaven. He wants ALL to come to repentence, but we have FREE WILL weather to follow God's Plan, and except jesus and go to Heaven or to reject Jesus, and go to Hell, but God's will, and plan is for ALL to come to repentence, but each of us has Free Will weather to accept God's plan or not.

Yes we have free will, but God already knows what we will choose.
I can't see how it could be any other way.

If God had not known that sin would enter the world, he would not have already provided a Saviour. Even in the Garden, the serpent was told that one day, a descendant of Eve's would crush his head, (Gen 3:15). And Peter calls Jesus "the Lamb who was chosen from the foundation of the world." (1 Peter 1:20). The cross was never plan 'B'; God provided a Saviour before we knew we needed one.

If we are able to do things, or if there should be some sin, or disaster, in our lives that God didn't know about, that would mean that he DOESN'T know all things; that we have the ability to take God by surprise, or outsmart him. And that if it goes wrong, God has to somehow "think on his feet" and try to come up with some way of rescuing the situation - which raises the question, "what happens if he can't?"

Jesus said, "My sheep listen to my voice. I KNOW THEM and they follow me" (John 10:27.) There is also a verse somehere which says "the Lord knows those who are his", and as someone else as said, it is God who writes our names in the book of life.

 

[Strong in Him]

Well I think this thread has gone about as far as it can. Obviously we are going to have to to agree to disagree on this point.

I believe that the Bible clearly shows that God can choose when, and how to use his omnicscience, and most of you do not.

No, it seems most of us don't agree with the way you have chosen to interpret those Scriptures. Which should suggest that it is maybe your interpretaion that is wrong.

How can someone do something, and God say "I choose not to know the outcome"? Either he does know, because he knows the future, or he doesn't.

How can, and why would, God choose not to know where his own actions will lead?
If someone drank lots of wine and then decided to drive home, not thinking that they could possibly have an accident and injure or kill someone, the judge in court would condemn them as being irresponsible.
If a father took a job at the other end of the country, without thinking about how his actions would affect his family, he would either find himself going on his own, without them, or he would be considered selfish for uprooting his family without their consent or foreknowledge. Either way, he could find himself facing a divorce because of his thoughtless actions. (Which would be entirely his own fault for doing something without thinking it through.)

Is God selfish, irresponsible and thoughtless? No, he is love. And as I said before, either he knows the future and knows all things, or he doesn't.

 

[ARBITER01]

This was your title,..

Does God already know if we are going to Heaven or Hell? My answer is no.

And this is what scripture says,..

Act 2:47 praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to them day by day those that were being saved.

That is predestination as well as prior knowledge from GOD. The decision rests with HIM.

 

[imperfectchristian]

(here is a post I made back in September on this subject)

I don’t think bad decision making equates to loss of salvation, otherwise who can be saved?
I also don’t believe judgement always means eternal judgement. Even in Revelation, judgement came, “and they repented not”, over and over. It’s not that God is not willing to forgive, it is…how did Jesus put it…the tree is bad.
It doesn’t matter how much you dung and water a thorn patch in a sunny valley, its still a thorn patch. If a persons heart is total darkness, it doesn’t matter how much space you give them to repent, they are not going to do it.
I think the Calvinists are right in some respects. One being that I do not believe we have the ability to repent from sin and come to God. I do believe however we have the ability to recognize our need for God. Again…it might seem like a straw splitting distinction, but I think it is a necessary one.
It’s like standing on one side of a gulf and realizing and admitting there is absolutely no way to get to the other side. You do not possess the ability to get from one side to the other. So then we recognize our need for God and then the next step is faith. Faith that God will make a way…has made a way.
That is saving faith. It is faith in God’s ability and willingness to save us and everyone who is willing to trust Him to do it. Nothing I do adds to what I am believing God has done and will do on my behalf. I think this gift of salvation is open to everyone who will accept it, but not everyone will want to be saved and I think God knew that from the beginning of time.
So then, yes He died for the whole world in the sense that it is His will and even His good pleasure to save everyone, yet at the same time He actually ransomed only those who accept His gift of forgiveness and eternal life.
Jesus said there is only one sin that God will not forgive, and that is in my opinion the sin of choosing to separate ourselves totally from God. If we would rather live in darkness than be reconciled to God, God will honor the right He gave us to that decision even though it is not what He desires and even though it means eternal death for us.
Having said all that, I believe God knew the hearts of everyone from the beginning of time that would want to be reconciled to Him and so based on that foreknowledge He predestined us to be His adopted children through Jesus. I don’t see how it is possible that there is any other answer for it.
He didn’t choose Adam to fall or Judas to betray Him yet He knew from the beginning and the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world and the prophecies were fulfilled just as God promised that they would be. Because He willed them to be from the beginning having already seen the end.

 

[enoch son]

For the record, I don't believe in Predestination. But I do believe in God's foreknowledge. The two do not equal eachother.

how can this line up with the word when it say's
1. Romans 8;29
2. eph. 1;5
Does God share your view.

 

[psalms 91]

This was your title,..

And this is what scripture says,..

That is predestination as well as prior knowledge from GOD. The decision rests with HIM.

Predestination is based on the foreknowledge of God concerning the choices we will freely make

 

[ANM29]

Predestination is based on the foreknowledge of God concerning the choices we will freely make

Who says this is the SUM of what predestination means? God does not. For some reason you all just do not give God the credit he deserves for having any plan or part in his own creation.

You are saying he created us and then left us all to our own wills to determine everything that happens on earth and he sits back with his hands folded saying, "I made them and now they are own their own and I can't intervene in the affairs of the men I created".

Seriously? wow!

You all give God no hand in anything except 'creating' us and leaving us to our own demise. What a shame, that is not true.

What a shame if you all really believe this is God. That is not God, that is the God you have been taught by men to believe.

I am really praying for a serious awakening and revelation of God like never before for many of you.

The traditions of man and doctrines of man has truly created God to be a serious monster with no mercy for his own creation who had no fault in their own sin initially.

That is not God.

 

[psalms 91]

Who says this is the SUM of what predestination means? God does not. For some reason you all just do not give God the credit he deserves for having any plan or part in his own creation.

You are saying he created us and then left us all to our own wills to determine everything that happens on earth and he sits back with his hands folded saying, "I made them and now they are own their own and I can't intervene in the affairs of the men I created".

Seriously? wow!

You all give God no hand in anything except 'creating' us and leaving us to our own demise. What a shame, that is not true.

What a shame if you all really believe this is God. That is not God, that is the God you have been taught by men to believe.

I am really praying for a serious awakening and revelation of God like never before for many of you.

The traditions of man and doctrines of man has truly created God to be a serious monster with no mercy for his own creation who had no fault in their own sin initially.

That is not God.

Nor do I portray Him that way. He can shape and mold eventys and even work around us but to say we are predestined without free will is to say that God didnt create man to freely worship Him and not given a choice. The only way that predestination can firt into free will is by Gods foreknowledge, like it or not. Can God work around our choices, of course, but we still have free will to choose.

 

[ANM29]

Nor do I portray Him that way. He can shape and mold eventys and even work around us but to say we are predestined without free will is to say that God didnt create man to freely worship Him and not given a choice. The only way that predestination can firt into free will is by Gods foreknowledge, like it or not. Can God work around our choices, of course, but we still have free will to choose.

Yes, I do believe in choices. He has given us the ability to choose a lot of things. But, the problem for me is when it comes down to the final countdown of everything. I do not believe in free-will to decide your own eternal fate, that is where we do not agree. I also do not believe in free will to be as FREE as it is explained or believed to be either.

God has not left man to decide his own eternal destiny, that has already been determined.

Just as God did not leave man to decide whether or not he would be born, where he would be born, his color, culture, etc..He did not leave man to decide the outcome of his own final end.

There is a bigger picture that unfortunately many of you can not see.

 

[Preecher]

Yes, God knows EVERYTHING.

Matthew 10:30 (KJV)
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

John 21:17 (KJV)
17 And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes, I do believe in choices. He has given us the ability to choose a lot of things. But, the problem for me is when it comes down to the final countdown of everything. I do not believe in free-will to decide your own eternal fate, that is where we do not agree. I also do not believe in free will to be as FREE as it is explained or believed to be either.

God has not left man to decide his own eternal destiny, that has already been determined.

Just as God did not leave man to decide whether or not he would be born, where he would be born, his color, culture, etc..He did not leave man to decide the outcome of his own final end.

There is a bigger picture that unfortunately many of you can not see.

In a nutshell our choice is to worship and obey God here on earth or not. But if we do not obeuy Him here then He is not going to take us up there, He already went through that. Of course this is simplified but it really boils down to that. We do have a choice about eternal life, it ios laid out for us and is called Jesus, either we serve Him or we serve the other one, it is our choice

 

[ANM29]

In a nutshell our choice is to worship and obey God here on earth or not. But if we do not obeuy Him here then He is not going to take us up there, He already went through that. Of course this is simplified but it really boils down to that. We do have a choice about eternal life, it ios laid out for us and is called Jesus, either we serve Him or we serve the other one, it is our choice

Ok..

 

[ARBITER01]

Predestination is based on the foreknowledge of God concerning the choices we will freely make

As well as HIS decisions to do anything for us. My justification is not just based on what Jesus did, but on GOD's choice to help me choose HIM. Without GOD deciding to help me out of the pit I was destined for, I would have went to it. I give all the credit to GOD on my rebirth.

 

[Strong in Him]

You are saying he created us and then left us all to our own wills to determine everything that happens on earth and he sits back with his hands folded saying, "I made them and now they are own their own and I can't intervene in the affairs of the men I created".

There seem to be two extremes here. This one, which I don't think anyone is saying, and the other which suggests that all our moves are dictated and prearranged by God - if we break an arm, it's because God's written and prearranged plan says that we will break an arm.
Obviously the first, what you have said above, is not correct. Scripture is full of God's actions and words to us, and he came to earth in Jesus - he can't get more involved than that. I don't think the second is correct either. God did not force Adam either to eat or not to eat from the tree; he had a choice. Scripture often says that IF people do something, obey God, follow him they will be blessed and have eternal life, but not otherwise. We have choices. If we choose to do something silly, we will suffer the consequences, which might be a broken arm.

I have always understood predestiantion to mean that God gives us free will, but already knows the choice that we will freely make.

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

Who says this is the SUM of what predestination means? God does not. For some reason you all just do not give God the credit he deserves for having any plan or part in his own creation.

You are saying he created us and then left us all to our own wills to determine everything that happens on earth and he sits back with his hands folded saying, "I made them and now they are own their own and I can't intervene in the affairs of the men I created".

Seriously? wow!

You all give God no hand in anything except 'creating' us and leaving us to our own demise. What a shame, that is not true.

What a shame if you all really believe this is God. That is not God, that is the God you have been taught by men to believe.

I am really praying for a serious awakening and revelation of God like never before for many of you.

The traditions of man and doctrines of man has truly created God to be a serious monster with no mercy for his own creation who had no fault in their own sin initially.

That is not God.

Sis, I think you took this a bit too far. You painted alot of people with a broad brush. I for one don't totally think that way. Please. While it is true, we ALL need an awakening. But don't take things to the extreme.

 

[Simon_Templar]

The parable goes that the farmer went out and sowed some seeds and while he slept the enemy came and sowed tares amongst the wheat. Jesus then interpreted that parable by saying that the wheat were God's children that the farmer was God and the enemy was the evil one. That the field was the world and that harvest was the end of the world.

Now why would Christ tell us that we were sown as wheat? God knew who was His since before the foundations of the world.....doesn't sound much like we have free will to me. Especially since this 'free will' thing isn't even in the bible.

Free will is in the bible... every place the bible says "choose" it is free will. Otherwise there could be no choice.
In fact, the bible makes no sense at all without free will.

Can God override someone's ability to choose, can he override their will.. sure, that is completely within the scope of his ability, and it appears that he did exactly that with Pharoh at the time of Moses.

However, there is no real evidence scripturally that God operates that way normally.
Further, God does not need to override our wills in order to have his plans come to pass. He is fully capable of accounting for whatever we choose to do and making it serve his purposes and plans.

As to the parable... of course wheat is planted as wheat... what else would it be planted as? You are making the assumption that the planting of the wheat refers to your creation/birth, rather than your conversion. That is found no where in the parable, in fact it goes against the implications of the other parables.

In the parable of the sower, which deals with the same imagery, the seed which is planted represents the word of God and when it grows up as wheat, it represents the word of God bearing fruit within the people to whom it was preached. This parable clearly, and strongly implies that people can receive the word and, make a start in the faith and still fail to bear fruit (ie come to fulfillment of salvation).

Wheat in the new testament is often symbolic of the Church specifically, not just individual believers. This is the case in the parable you reference. It refers to false believers and deceivers being planted in the Church to make trouble.

 

[ANM29]

Sis, I think you took this a bit too far. You painted alot of people with a broad brush. I for one don't totally think that way. Please. While it is true, we ALL need an awakening. But don't take things to the extreme.

If that was not for you, then it was not for you to take personally DOJ. Of course I am not speaking for EVERYBODY, only those to whom it applies.

Anyway, I am done with this subject for today anyway. I want to focus on other things right now.

I can only say if the shoe fits wear it, if not, then the shoe is not for you.