Does God allow His grace to be resisted by humans or is it irresistible?

[Love &Forgiveness]

No, He won't, because you would be living in sin and rebellion, and you would be disconnected from God and probably deceived by an evil spirit pretending to be Jesus (there are many). The Father would then chastise you back to repentance and the Holy Spirit would teach you how to truly live for Jesus Christ from the Bible. Because Jesus isn't all you need, and He never said so either.

John 5:39-40 NKJV
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. [40] But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

No, He won't, because you would be living in sin and rebellion, and you would be disconnected from God and probably deceived by an evil spirit pretending to be Jesus (there are many). The Father would then chastise you back to repentance and the Holy Spirit would teach you how to truly live for Jesus Christ from the Bible. Because Jesus isn't all you need, and He never said so either.

John 5:39-40 NLT
"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! [40] Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.

 

[Emli]

John 5:39-40 NLT
"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! [40] Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.

You are taking that verse completely out of context, misinterpreting it, and building a false doctrine around it. That is how most false doctrines are created, kind of like what the devil did in the wilderness. Matthew 4:1-11. It does not mean that we should not read Scripture, it means that we shouldn't just read Scripture. Also, it's about the Old Testament, about how the Jews believed that they would receive eternal life from following the Law, but weren't seeking God (which you would know had you studied the Bible). See 2 Corinthians 3:4-6. The New Testament explains the Old Testament, and how it points to Jesus. If anything, that verse proves that we have to read the Bible, because Jesus Himself said that Scripture leads to Him. Just because we are saved by grace, that doesn't mean that we can live in rebellion and not study what God's will is.

 

[RDKirk]

Emli, can i lose my Salvation?

Not like inadvertently "losing" your car keys.

I believe that, ultimately, grace is resistible even by those who know God.

But the Holy Spirit does not give up easily or turn away quickly. He fights.

So salvation is not "lost," salvation is thrown away.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

You are taking that verse completely out of context, misinterpreting it, and building a false doctrine around it. That is how most false doctrines are created, kind of like what the devil did in the wilderness. Matthew 4:1-11. It does not mean that we should not read Scripture, it means that we shouldn't just read Scripture. Also, it's about the Old Testament, about how the Jews believed that they would receive eternal life from following the Law, but weren't seeking God (which you would know had you studied the Bible). See 2 Corinthians 3:4-6. The New Testament explains the Old Testament, and how it points to Jesus. If anything, that verse proves that we have to read the Bible, because Jesus Himself said that Scripture leads to Him. Just because we are saved by grace, that doesn't mean that we can live in rebellion and not study what God's will is.

After i was Saved I studied the Scriptures. I listened to the Bible I am sure well over a hundred times. I bought Bibles and Study Material. I spent thousands of dollars on Bibles and study material. I still buy some but I am not counting on the Bible to save me, I am counting on Jesus to Save me alone without adding anything else to Jesus.

After three years of doing this Jesus opened my eyes to the fact that the whole Bible is about Him. All we need is Jesus!

The Apostles wrote the New Testament in the Spirit, the same Spirit we have living in us. You don't need to be afraid. Just trust Jesus. Put all your trust in Jesus and He will never leave you or abandon you. Jesus will hold on to you. He will carry you through to the end. He will change you, you can't change yourself.

As for the Scripture you told me to look at. The next verse explains it all. The New Covenant is not the written Law which none of us can obey, but of the Spirit which is written on our hearts and minds. The Spirit gives Life, not our understanding of Scripture.

2 Corinthians 3:6 NLT
He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.

 

[Emli]

After i was Saved I studied the Scriptures. I listened to the Bible I am sure well over a hundred times. I bought Bibles and Study Material. I spent thousands of dollars on Bibles and study material. I still buy some but I am not counting on the Bible to save me, I am counting on Jesus to Save me alone without adding anything else to Jesus.

After three years of doing this Jesus opened my eyes to the fact that the whole Bible is about Him. All we need is Jesus!

The Apostles wrote the New Testament in the Spirit, the same Spirit we have living in us. You don't need to be afraid. Just trust Jesus. Put all your trust in Jesus and He will never leave you or abandon you. Jesus will hold on to you. He will carry you through to the end. He will change you, you can't change yourself.

As for the Scripture you told me to look at. The next verse explains it all. The New Covenant is not the written Law which none of us can obey, but of the Spirit which is written on our hearts and minds. The Spirit gives Life, not our understanding of Scripture.

2 Corinthians 3:6 NLT
He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.

Would you tell a new believer not to read the Bible and say "all you need is Jesus"?

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

Would you tell a new believer not to read the Bible and say "all you need is Jesus"?

I would tell a new believer or longtime believers to depend and trust and obey Jesus alone, not religion. In the Old Testament the prophetes leading up to Jesus have one message, we need Jesus. God said that they kept falling away from Him. He told them that He didn't want their sacrifices, He wants us to repent and depend on Him. He already provided the Sacrifice, Himself. All we need is Jesus! Nothing else. Jesus will teach us and provide everything we need. We only need to trust and depend and obey Him. He might lead us to the Bible, He might lead us to a person, He could use anyone or anything because everything was made by Him, for Him, for the Good of those who call on the Name of Jesus. I point everyone to Jesus. Salvation is in Jesus alone! Nobody else can Save. Only Jesus can Save!

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

Would you tell a new believer not to read the Bible and say "all you need is Jesus"?

We can look at Scripture to answer that question. This is what Paul said:

Acts 20:21 NLT
I have had one message for Jews and Greeks alike-the necessity of repenting from sin and turning to God, and of having faith in our Lord Jesus.

This is what Peter said:

Acts 2:38 NLT
Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This is what Jesus says:

Matthew 4:17 NLT
From then on Jesus began to preach, "Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near."

Notice they didn't add anything else. Faith alone!

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

Would you tell a new believer not to read the Bible and say "all you need is Jesus"?

The whole Bible tells us the same. Put all your Faith, trust, depend on, Jesus to Save you. He is the Messiah! He is our Savior. The criminal on the cross repented and turned to Jesus and Jesus told Him that he would be in Heaven with Him that very day, not after he read the Scriptures.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

Would you tell a new believer not to read the Bible and say "all you need is Jesus"?

Emli, you never have to worry again. Just trust and depend on Jesus. He will never let you down. He will never let you go. Jesus Loves you more than you can ever imagine. Jesus is Trustworthy. Nothing can ever come between you and Jesus's Love for you. Nothing can separate you from Jesus. Not demons, not angels, not sin, not the Earth, not the sky, not evil people, not time, not your flaws and sin, not your inability to clean up your life, not even if you stop reading the Bible. You are chosen. You are Loved. Just be who Jesus made you to be, loving. Just love Him and love others. Love does no wrong. Just live in Love. Live in Jesus.

 

[Emli]

I would tell a new believer or longtime believers to depend and trust and obey Jesus alone, not religion. In the Old Testament the prophetes leading up to Jesus have one message, we need Jesus. God said that they kept falling away from Him. He told them that He didn't want their sacrifices, He wants us to repent and depend on Him. He already provided the Sacrifice, Himself. All we need is Jesus! Nothing else. Jesus will teach us and provide everything we need. We only need to trust and depend and obey Him. He might lead us to the Bible, He might lead us to a person, He could use anyone or anything because everything was made by Him, for Him, for the Good of those who call on the Name of Jesus. I point everyone to Jesus. Salvation is in Jesus alone! Nobody else can Save. Only Jesus can Save!

If you would say this, that would make you a false prophet. False prophets always points us away from truth and the real God. Jesus will ALWAYS lead us to Scripture. He could also lead us to a person who belongs to Him, or to a church and then to Scripture. He would never, ever tell us to not read the Bible.
After I got saved, I asked Jesus "what do I do now?". He said "Love!" and then He told me "And read the Bible!" That's how I knew that it was the real Jesus Christ, the real Holy Spirit that I had received. The Bible is His Word.
The Bible is not the same as religion, and following the Bible is not the same as following a religion.

I said earlier that you shouldn't worry about your salvation, but you should. You may not be following the real Jesus Christ, because your words show the opposite of it. There are many false ones. The devil pretends to be God and he lies and points us away from Scripture, from truth and true faith, from the narrow road and say that we can find salvation without obeying God. Jesus is the only Way to Heaven. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, but we can only know that Way by living according to His teachings, as given to us in His Word. Ignore that, and you cannot know Him.

Luke 6: 46. "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47. As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. 48. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."

You are in very real danger of judgment if your faith is not based on the teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

If you would say this, that would make you a false prophet. False prophets always points us away from truth and the real God. Jesus will ALWAYS lead us to Scripture. He could also lead us to a person who belongs to Him, or to a church and then to Scripture. He would never, ever tell us to not read the Bible.
After I got saved, I asked Jesus "what do I do now?". He said "Love!" and then He told me "And read the Bible!" That's how I knew that it was the real Jesus Christ, the real Holy Spirit that I had received. The Bible is His Word.
The Bible is not the same as religion, and following the Bible is not the same as following a religion.

I said earlier that you shouldn't worry about your salvation, but you should. You may not be following the real Jesus Christ, because your words show the opposite of it. There are many false ones. The devil pretends to be God and he lies and points us away from Scripture, from truth and true faith, from the narrow road and say that we can find salvation without obeying God. Jesus is the only Way to Heaven. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, but we can only know that Way by living according to His teachings, as given to us in His Word. Ignore that, and you cannot know Him.

Luke 6: 46. "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47. As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. 48. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."

You are in very real danger of judgment if your faith is not based on the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I never said don't read the Bible. I said you don't need it. You just need Jesus.

Jesus changes us, we can't change ourselves. Trying to keep the Law is not living in Faith. Faith is trusting and depending on Jesus to Save and Change us, not that we can Save and Change ourselves.

If you are depending on your ability to live a good life by reading and following Scriptures, you have fallen out of Grace. You are living like the Jews. They thought they were Saving themselves. They were self-rightous. The tax collector that admitted His fault and dependance on God went home justified, not the Pharisees who know the Law.

 

[Emli]

I never said don't read the Bible. I said you don't need it. You just need Jesus.

Jesus changes us, we can't change ourselves. Trying to keep the Law is not living in Faith. Faith is trusting and depending on Jesus to Save and Change us, not that we can Save and Change ourselves.

If you are depending on your ability to live a good life by reading and following Scriptures, you have fallen out of Grace. You are living like the Jews. They thought they were Saving themselves. They were self-rightous. The tax collector that admitted His fault and dependance on God went home justified, not the Pharisees who know the Law.

You seem to arguing against random things that I haven't said, or anyone else in this thread, going back and forth between saying we should read the Bible and that we shouldn't, taking verses out of context. I would suggest going to God and studying Scripture for yourself for a few months, letting Him sort out the confusion and teach you sound doctrine. Because what you are saying is very confused and it isn't Biblical. Let the Holy Spirit teach you from the Bible and let go of the false doctrines.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

You seem to arguing against random things that I haven't said, or anyone else in this thread, going back and forth between saying we should read the Bible and that we shouldn't, taking verses out of context. I would suggest going to God and studying Scripture for yourself for a few months, letting Him sort out the confusion and teach you sound doctrine. Because what you are saying is very confused and it isn't Biblical. Let the Holy Spirit teach you from the Bible and let go of the false doctrines.

I am sorry if it seems like I am arguing with you. I don't want to argue with you or anyone else. I am just trying to share what I believe, but apparently I am not doing a very good job at it. What i believe is that by repenting, which to me is not wanting to live in my sins anymore and wanting to live in Love, and turning to Jesus, who is God, to Save and Change me, I am Saved. From that point I am Saved. I believe that Salvation is not dependant on my ability to Save or Change myself, but on Jesus's ability to Save and Change me. I believe once I commit my life to Jesus, He Saves me through His Power, not mine. I believe that Jesus Loves me more than I can understand and that He is not going to let me go. I believe Jesus is Forgiving and wants all people to put their Faith in Him so He can Save them. I believe that I am Saved by Jesus's Grace, not my own effort, which includes working out my own Salvation through Bible study, prayer, good works, etc. I believe that the Bible is the Word of God and it is useful to teach, rebuke, and buildup the Church of Christ, but not necessary for Salvation. I believe God can and does use all things to bring people to Salvation. I believe Salvation and Sanctification are essentially the same thing, but for practical purposes some see them as separate things.

 

[Emli]

I am sorry if it seems like I am arguing with you. I don't want to argue with you or anyone else. I am just trying to share what I believe, but apparently I am not doing a very good job at it. What i believe is that by repenting, which to me is not wanting to live in my sins anymore and wanting to live in Love, and turning to Jesus, who is God, to Save and Change me, I am Saved. From that point I am Saved. I believe that Salvation is not dependant on my ability to Save or Change myself, but on Jesus's ability to Save and Change me. I believe once I commit my life to Jesus, He Saves me through His Power, not mine. I believe that Jesus Loves me more than I can understand and that He is not going to let me go. I believe Jesus is Forgiving and wants all people to put their Faith in Him so He can Save them. I believe that I am Saved by Jesus's Grace, not my own effort, which includes working out my own Salvation through Bible study, prayer, good works, etc. I believe that the Bible is the Word of God and it is useful to teach, rebuke, and buildup the Church of Christ, but not necessary for Salvation. I believe God can and does use all things to bring people to Salvation. I believe Salvation and Sanctification are essentially the same thing, but for practical purposes some see them as separate things.

God sanctifies us by working in us, by teaching us and by conforming us to the image of Christ, through our actions. It is not by our own effort, by it is our own actions, our choice to surrender. It is not the Holy Spirit taking over and controlling us like puppets, but rather Jesus revealing Himself to us, in the Spirit and from His Word, and us doing what He has taught us. If I say that we cannot be saved without reading the Bible, that is not a work-based salvation. It is definitely a requirement for salvation that we get to know Jesus from Scripture, because He has said that if we don't live by His teachings, we cannot be His followers. God can use all things to point us to Him, but we cannot be saved without Scripture. We can give our lives to Jesus without having read the Bible, as long as we have heard the Gospel, but we cannot stay saved unless we co-operate with Him by reading His Word. Jesus said that we are sanctified by the Word. It is what He requires of us after we are saved, so we can mature in Him. We don't earn our salvation thay way, we cannot earn it in any way, but it is what He has commanded us to do. We enter into a covenant with Him when we are saved. He paid our debt, and He gives us a new nature, but we agree to let Him be our Lord, to repent of our sins and live by His commandments. The Holy Spirit enables us to do all of it, we cannot even understand the Bible unless He opens our eyes, so it is not by our own effort, but we still have to be the ones devoting our lives to Him and obeying Him, then becoming like Him. If we don't, that is proof that the Holy Spirit is not working in us. If we do, that is proof that He is. How could you obey Jesus and follow His commandments unless you read the Bible? When we are born-again, we are translated into God's Kingdom, as new creations. Our lives are new from that moment, and we now belong to Jesus. He becomes our Shepherd and we His sheep, He becomes our Lord and Master and we His disciples. He teaches and He leads us, and we follow and obey His voice. There is no salvation unless this happens. And we need the Bible for all of this to happen. Never, ever say we don't or encourage someone to not read it amd simply "trust in Jesus", because they will end up misled and possibly unsaved. Many, many Christians are lazy and don't take studying Scripture seriously, and they show very little fruit and very little knowledge of who God is. And in the last days, many will fall away because they listen to false doctrines. If we diligently study Scripture, that won't happen, but if we refuse, God will let us end up confused and without direction in life, and we may end up falling away unless we repent. We have to take our salvation seriously and believe what the Bible teaches. You have twisted Scripture and spoken against it so many times in this conversation, I know that you need to go study the Bible until God has renewed your mind, and you will be stumbling until you do. If you read the entire New Testament, a few times, and ask God to open your eyes to what true faith really is, He will. Ask Him about everything that you don't understand, or what you don't agree with, and keep asking, keep studying! You are going to have some strongholds torn down, and it won't always feel good, but it's God's will be done, not ours.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

God sanctifies us by working in us, by teaching us and by conforming us to the image of Christ, through our actions. It is not by our own effort, by it is our own actions, our choice to surrender. It is not the Holy Spirit taking over and controlling us like puppets, but rather Jesus revealing Himself to us, in the Spirit and from His Word, and us doing what He has taught us. If I say that we cannot be saved without reading the Bible, that is not a work-based salvation. It is definitely a requirement for salvation that we get to know Jesus from Scripture, because He has said that if we don't live by His teachings, we cannot be His followers. God can use all things to point us to Him, but we cannot be saved without Scripture. We can give our lives to Jesus without having read the Bible, as long as we have heard the Gospel, but we cannot stay saved unless we co-operate with Him by reading His Word. Jesus said that we are sanctified by the Word. It is what He requires of us after we are saved, so we can mature in Him. We don't earn our salvation thay way, we cannot earn it in any way, but it is what He has commanded us to do. We enter into a covenant with Him when we are saved. He paid our debt, and He gives us a new nature, but we agree to let Him be our Lord, to repent of our sins and live by His commandments. The Holy Spirit enables us to do all of it, we cannot even understand the Bible unless He opens our eyes, so it is not by our own effort, but we still have to be the ones devoting our lives to Him and obeying Him, then becoming like Him. If we don't, that is proof that the Holy Spirit is not working in us. If we do, that is proof that He is. How could you obey Jesus and follow His commandments unless you read the Bible? When we are born-again, we are translated into God's Kingdom, as new creations. Our lives are new from that moment, and we now belong to Jesus. He becomes our Shepherd and we His sheep, He becomes our Lord and Master and we His disciples. He teaches and He leads us, and we follow and obey His voice. There is no salvation unless this happens. And we need the Bible for all of this to happen. Never, ever say we don't or encourage someone to not read it amd simply "trust in Jesus", because they will end up misled and possibly unsaved. Many, many Christians are lazy and don't take studying Scripture seriously, and they show very little fruit and very little knowledge of who God is. And in the last days, many will fall away because they listen to false doctrines. If we diligently study Scripture, that won't happen, but if we refuse, God will let us end up confused and without direction in life, and we may end up falling away unless we repent. We have to take our salvation seriously and believe what the Bible teaches. You have twisted Scripture and spoken against it so many times in this conversation, I know that you need to go study the Bible until God has renewed your mind, and you will be stumbling until you do. If you read the entire New Testament, a few times, and ask God to open your eyes to what true faith really is, He will. Ask Him about everything that you don't understand, or what you don't agree with, and keep asking, keep studying! You are going to have some strongholds torn down, and it won't always feel good, but it's God's will be done, not ours.

This is the only response I can give.

Romans 2:12-29 NLT
When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. [13] For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight. [14] Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. [15] They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. [16] And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life. [17] You who call yourselves Jews are relying on God’s law, and you boast about your special relationship with him. [18] You know what he wants; you know what is right because you have been taught his law. [19] You are convinced that you are a guide for the blind and a light for people who are lost in darkness. [20] You think you can instruct the ignorant and teach children the ways of God. For you are certain that God’s law gives you complete knowledge and truth. [21] Well then, if you teach others, why don’t you teach yourself? You tell others not to steal, but do you steal? [22] You say it is wrong to commit adultery, but do you commit adultery? You condemn idolatry, but do you use items stolen from pagan temples? [23] You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it. [24] No wonder the Scriptures say, “The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you.” [25] The Jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey God’s law. But if you don’t obey God’s law, you are no better off than an uncircumcised Gentile. [26] And if the Gentiles obey God’s law, won’t God declare them to be his own people? [27] In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God’s law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God’s law but don’t obey it. [28] For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. [29] No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by the Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.

Romans 9:30-33 NLT
What does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God’s standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place. [31] But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded. [32] Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path. [33] God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said, “I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall. But anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”

Romans 10:1-13 NLT
Dear brothers and sisters, the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is for the people of Israel to be saved. [2] I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal. [3] For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. [4] For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God. [5] For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. [6] But faith’s way of getting right with God says, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will go up to heaven?’ (to bring Christ down to earth). [7] And don’t say, ‘Who will go down to the place of the dead?’ (to bring Christ back to life again).” [8] In fact, it says, “The message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart.” And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: [9] If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved. [11] As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” [12] Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. [13] For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”

Romans 11:22 NLT
Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I just prayed about it, and I can't give you an answer right now, because I need to pray and ask God about some things that I don't understand.

But may I ask what is the core of your question? I mean, what was the reason behind posting the OP?

I am deeply re-examining my own theology. I am strongly of the opinion that God does not force anyone to choose Him. "Irresistible", as I would define irresistible, is unable to choose against. But, that works against God wanting people who will worship Him in spirit and truth.

God overwhelmed me and woke me up when I didn't even think born again was a thing for today when it happened to me (due to mainline church teaching against being born again). It overwhelmed me just to know God. In that sense--like Paul--it is irresistible. But, even Paul teaches about a continued choice that has to be made. In that way, I see God's grace as something we cooperate with. It isn't that God isn't able to force us. He could; but He chooses not to. But, I see Him as more powerful, because He doesn't. I am one of those who believe that because lives outside of our time, He can see our entire life. He knows the choices we will make, even before we make them. He knows our end from our beginning. So I see predestined and free will as two sides of the same coin. He doesn't control our choices, though. And, yet, in a display of His incredible sovereignty, He can make what He promises come to fruition just by His supernatural intervention. Take Job for example. He allowed something to happen to Job and then He restored double to Job. He gave direction, but everyone still had choices. The friends were told that His anger was kindled against them and what they needed to do. They still had a choice; but, if one understands the power of God and God speaks clearly, you wouldn't want to be disobedient. Is that irresistible or is it just responding out of a sudden understanding of one's place relative to God--like the scales falling from your eyes or the clouds suddenly leaving so everything is crystal clear--even if just for a moment?

So for me, there are some things I know that I know that I know--that God has made crystal clear. There are others that I think I know; but I don't "know that I know that I know."

I believe in prevenient grace. I never would have come to God if it wasn't for circumstances and situations He arranged. And, because I didn't believe, when He woke me up while away at a business meeting and in the privacy of my hotel, I was so blown away, I gave Him my life. I consider those things to be necessary and prevenient grace. I was given an ultimatum from my then-wife. I could have chosen to walk away from Him. I just didn't want to. I wouldn't. So, the fact that I could have makes me think it isn't irresistible.

It is like I was supernaturally put on a train. But, I could choose to get off at any time, if I wanted to. Irresistible to me is being put on a train with no way to get off until i arrive at the final destination. But, if I can't get off, I don't have choice.

 

[Emli]

I am deeply re-examining my own theology. I am strongly of the opinion that God does not force anyone to choose Him. "Irresistible", as I would define irresistible, is unable to choose against. But, that works against God wanting people who will worship Him in spirit and truth.

God overwhelmed me and woke me up when I didn't even think born again was a thing for today when it happened to me (due to mainline church teaching against being born again). It overwhelmed me just to know God. In that sense--like Paul--it is irresistible. But, even Paul teaches about a continued choice that has to be made. In that way, I see God's grace as something we cooperate with. It isn't that God isn't able to force us. He could; but He chooses not to. But, I see Him as more powerful, because He doesn't. I am one of those who believe that because lives outside of our time, He can see our entire life. He knows the choices we will make, even before we make them. He knows our end from our beginning. So I see predestined and free will as two sides of the same coin. He doesn't control our choices, though. And, yet, in a display of His incredible sovereignty, He can make what He promises come to fruition just by His supernatural intervention. Take Job for example. He allowed something to happen to Job and then He restored double to Job. He gave direction, but everyone still had choices. The friends were told that His anger was kindled against them and what they needed to do. They still had a choice; but, if one understands the power of God and God speaks clearly, you wouldn't want to be disobedient. Is that irresistible or is it just responding out of a sudden understanding of one's place relative to God--like the scales falling from your eyes or the clouds suddenly leaving so everything is crystal clear--even if just for a moment?

So for me, there are some things I know that I know that I know--that God has made crystal clear. There are others that I think I know; but I don't "know that I know that I know."

I believe in prevenient grace. I never would have come to God if it wasn't for circumstances and situations He arranged. And, because I didn't believe, when He woke me up while away at a business meeting and in the privacy of my hotel, I was so blown away, I gave Him my life. I consider those things to be necessary and prevenient grace. I was given an ultimatum from my then-wife. I could have chosen to walk away from Him. I just didn't want to. I wouldn't. So, the fact that I could have makes me think it isn't irresistible.

It is like I was supernaturally put on a train. But, I could choose to get off at any time, if I wanted to. Irresistible to me is being put on a train with no way to get off until i arrive at the final destination. But, if I can't get off, I don't have choice.

I understand what you mean, and I completely agree with it. Thank you for sharing your testimony and your insights.

This is more of a ramble than a sure conviction, hopefully it will make sense:
I believe that, in a sense, God chooses those who will choose Him willingly. I don't believe that we were ever with God in Heaven before we were created in the womb like some believe (I don't know where that false doctrine even comes from, but it's not from the Bible) because that makes no sense at all, but that He knew us when He saw the future, before Creation, knowing who He would ultimately save. And that Jesus knew who our Father would call and who would become His before He died on the Cross. I also believe that each of us who are chosen, are created for a specific purpose for His Kingdom, and that nothing can stop God's plans. His plans for us may not be what we want (in the flesh or as new Christians), they are perfect for who He created us to become in Him eventually, which only He knows. Are you with me? I believe that though God has planned our lives before we were created, and the way that it happens is, as you say, we cooperate with God. We choose Him. Our lives are predestined, not predetermined. God works out everything according to His will, according to His purposes, it's not a plan that was set in motion if you understand what I mean. Just like with the life of Jesus, where God worked out everything according to prophecy, He works the same way in our lives. Prophecy is God's way of telling us not just what will happen in the future, but what He has planned on doing in the future, then He makes it happen. It's all logical to me, God being involved in every step we take, leading us towards what He has chosen for us, but not forcing us in any way. When we are saved, we agree to live by His will, and we pray "Your will be done, not ours!". When we do, we yield control over our lives to Him, willingly, and we agree to His plans for us without knowing them, because we choose to trust Him because of who He is.

We can control our own choices, but we cannot control God's will. Our choices affect us and those around us, but ultimately God is sovereign. He doesn't control us or force our actions, and He never will (though He may give us some gentle, and some not so gentle, pushes) but He controls our circumstances. He has to, or else He wouldn't be sovereign. He can put His foot down and stop us, chastise us, and ruin our plans that will otherwise ruin our lives. That makes me feel safe, knowing that He is in control. Have we, by surrendering to God, allowed Him to be irresistable to us? I know I have. I am eternally grateful that God is irresistable to me. When God saved me, I gave my life to Him immediately because of who He is, and though I've messed up and sinned and even tried to run from Him, I have never been able to let go fully, because He kept holding on to me, kept calling me, making sure that I would choose Him and come back. But that's also what I pray for everyday, something that He puts in my heart, but that I could choose to reject, but wouldn't.

As for preventient grace, I agree, God definitely works in us before we are saved. He did for two years for me, and He showed me how He even saved and directed my life a few times since I was a child. He is never far from any of us.

But I don't know what ultimately causes one person to resist His grace their entire lives, and another one to surrender to Him.

What do you think?

 

[Geralt]

you can't resist something you are not even aware is happening.

and that is the problem with 'grace', it really means different things to different people.

biblicaly when God acts 'graciously', it usually happens before people are aware of it. and all that is left for them is to give thanks and praise for God acting so graciously towards them.

Arminians think grace can be resisted, this is foolish as this presumes God is dangling his incoming gracious acts before men so that they can make a decision before God proceeds (or not) with his gracious actions. "Resisting grace" is a logical construct totally not supported in scripture.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What Scriptures do you use to support your view?

Did you ask Yahweh for His Understanding (His View) ?