Does God allow His grace to be resisted by humans or is it irresistible?

[Emli]

My point is that Salvation is done from start to finish by Faith, not by our good works. Good works are the result of Faith.

Romans 1:17 NLT
This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life."

Salvation is accomplished by Jesus, not us. It is a gift, not earned. Their is nothing we can do to earn it. It is a gift.

Once we receive the Holy Spirit we are sealed for Eternity. If I could lose my Salvation I would have already look it. Jesus is holding my Salvation in His Hands, I am not.

We can look at the 12 disciples. They followed Jesus for over three years before they believed and Judas never turned to Jesus.

I see two believers in the Bible. Ones that wants Jesus for who He is and ones that want Jesus for what He can do for them.

Many people followed Jesus because of the miracles He did, but when He told them that He was the True Prize they stopped following Him. Many people praised Him during His triumphant entry to Jerusalem, but then turned their backs on Him later in the week.

People that truly repent and turn to God through Faith in Jesus alone are truly Saved forever. They have already passed from death to life.

People that are using Jesus for their own purposes aren't Saved. Judas and most of the Jews only cared about money, power, and the praise of others, not about praising and worshipping Jesus. They say they are following God, but their actions prove that they aren't.

I agree, it relies only on Jesus, and no one in this thread has mentioned good works as a means to salvation.

How do you take these verses into account?
Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 6:4-6, and especially Romans 11:18-22 (and there are many more)

And how do you explain those who show fruit of salvation for a while, but then go back into a life of sin and never repent again?

OSAS is a false doctrine that blinds people and deceives them into believing that their sins won't separate them from God. The Bible tells us that we are saved (a one time baptism of the Holy Spirit), then we are being saved (the continual process of sanctification) and then we will be saved if we continue until the end when Jesus comes back or until we die. Many people who believe that they are saved, because they once were, are no longer saved and they will be separated on Jesus' left, because they are workers of iniquity. They were partakers of the Holy Spirit, saved at one point, but did not continue in faith, and thus were grafted out. Every tree that doesn't show good fruit will be cut down. That is why we must all work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and keep seeking God, keep relying on Him and surrendering to Him, staying alert and awake for the rest of our lives. We don't want to end up like the virgins without oil.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

I agree, it relies only on Jesus, and no one in this thread has mentioned good works as a means to salvation.

How do you take these verses into account?
Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 6:4-6, and especially Romans 11:18-22 (and there are many more)

And how do you explain those who show fruit of salvation for a while, but then go back into a life of sin and never repent again?

OSAS is a false doctrine that blinds people and deceives them into believing that their sins won't separate them from God. The Bible tells us that we are saved (a one time baptism of the Holy Spirit), then we are being saved (the continual process of sanctification) and then we will be saved if we continue until the end when Jesus comes back or until we die. Many people who believe that they are saved, because they once were, are no longer saved and they will be separated on Jesus' left, because they are workers of iniquity. They were partakers of the Holy Spirit, saved at one point, but did not continue in faith, and thus were grafted out. Every tree that doesn't show good fruit will be cut down. That is why we must all work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and keep seeking God, keep relying on Him and surrendering to Him, staying alert and awake for the rest of our lives. We don't want to end up like the virgins without oil.

I don't have all the answers. I remember God taught me about this at one time but i can't recall it now. Another important thing to keep in mind is when the disciples asked for more Faith, Jesus told them even if you have very little Faith, you still have Faith and that Faith will grow. It is not about our Faith, it is about Jesus. Our Faith isn't the Power that overcomes, it is Jesus that overcomes.

Can someone receive the Holy Spirit and then reject Him? I am not sure. Saul received the Holy Spirit, but didn't follow in God's Ways and then God took His Spirit and gave him a evil Spirit. But we see something similar when Paul tell us that beleivers that are living in sin will be disciplined back into repentance. I think the people that run race till the end were the truly repentance people.

John says those that believe love others because God Loves them. And that they don't live in sin.

At this time I don't have a good answer for you. I know that I am saved. Their where times that if Jesus wasn't holding my Salvation I would have walked away from Him. So I believe Jesus is the Author and Perfector of my Salvation. Salvation is a Gift. If it was up to me to lose it, I would. I am not strong enough to maintain my Salvation, Jesus is .That is why I believe if someone truly want Love in their life instead of power, greed, hate, bitterness, etc, Jesus acceptes them and doesn't let go. Jesus satisfies me. Why would I want to go back to my old life? But maybe some do, like Lot's wife.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

I agree, it relies only on Jesus, and no one in this thread has mentioned good works as a means to salvation.

How do you take these verses into account?
Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 6:4-6, and especially Romans 11:18-22 (and there are many more)

And how do you explain those who show fruit of salvation for a while, but then go back into a life of sin and never repent again?

OSAS is a false doctrine that blinds people and deceives them into believing that their sins won't separate them from God. The Bible tells us that we are saved (a one time baptism of the Holy Spirit), then we are being saved (the continual process of sanctification) and then we will be saved if we continue until the end when Jesus comes back or until we die. Many people who believe that they are saved, because they once were, are no longer saved and they will be separated on Jesus' left, because they are workers of iniquity. They were partakers of the Holy Spirit, saved at one point, but did not continue in faith, and thus were grafted out. Every tree that doesn't show good fruit will be cut down. That is why we must all work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and keep seeking God, keep relying on Him and surrendering to Him, staying alert and awake for the rest of our lives. We don't want to end up like the virgins without oil.

I think that there are people that believe that they are saved, but really aren't. Eventually true believers will see them for who they are but they will continue to be deceived and will continue deceiving others. They never truly received the Holy Spirit, but said a prayer or are counting on their religion or good works too Save them.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

I agree, it relies only on Jesus, and no one in this thread has mentioned good works as a means to salvation.

How do you take these verses into account?
Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 6:4-6, and especially Romans 11:18-22 (and there are many more)

And how do you explain those who show fruit of salvation for a while, but then go back into a life of sin and never repent again?

OSAS is a false doctrine that blinds people and deceives them into believing that their sins won't separate them from God. The Bible tells us that we are saved (a one time baptism of the Holy Spirit), then we are being saved (the continual process of sanctification) and then we will be saved if we continue until the end when Jesus comes back or until we die. Many people who believe that they are saved, because they once were, are no longer saved and they will be separated on Jesus' left, because they are workers of iniquity. They were partakers of the Holy Spirit, saved at one point, but did not continue in faith, and thus were grafted out. Every tree that doesn't show good fruit will be cut down. That is why we must all work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and keep seeking God, keep relying on Him and surrendering to Him, staying alert and awake for the rest of our lives. We don't want to end up like the virgins without oil.

And since they are running with other people that are being deceived, they think true believers are not and they fight against them.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

I agree, it relies only on Jesus, and no one in this thread has mentioned good works as a means to salvation.

How do you take these verses into account?
Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 6:4-6, and especially Romans 11:18-22 (and there are many more)

And how do you explain those who show fruit of salvation for a while, but then go back into a life of sin and never repent again?

OSAS is a false doctrine that blinds people and deceives them into believing that their sins won't separate them from God. The Bible tells us that we are saved (a one time baptism of the Holy Spirit), then we are being saved (the continual process of sanctification) and then we will be saved if we continue until the end when Jesus comes back or until we die. Many people who believe that they are saved, because they once were, are no longer saved and they will be separated on Jesus' left, because they are workers of iniquity. They were partakers of the Holy Spirit, saved at one point, but did not continue in faith, and thus were grafted out. Every tree that doesn't show good fruit will be cut down. That is why we must all work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and keep seeking God, keep relying on Him and surrendering to Him, staying alert and awake for the rest of our lives. We don't want to end up like the virgins without oil.

I hear the terms one time saved and sanctification but I see them as the same thing. You aren't truly Saved unless you are being Sanctified. The whole meaning of being Saved is change from one state to another. So I don't believe that they are two separate things, but the same thing. The Fruit is the proof, not saying a prayer or religion or good works. John tells us those that love others are children of God.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

I agree, it relies only on Jesus, and no one in this thread has mentioned good works as a means to salvation.

How do you take these verses into account?
Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 6:4-6, and especially Romans 11:18-22 (and there are many more)

And how do you explain those who show fruit of salvation for a while, but then go back into a life of sin and never repent again?

OSAS is a false doctrine that blinds people and deceives them into believing that their sins won't separate them from God. The Bible tells us that we are saved (a one time baptism of the Holy Spirit), then we are being saved (the continual process of sanctification) and then we will be saved if we continue until the end when Jesus comes back or until we die. Many people who believe that they are saved, because they once were, are no longer saved and they will be separated on Jesus' left, because they are workers of iniquity. They were partakers of the Holy Spirit, saved at one point, but did not continue in faith, and thus were grafted out. Every tree that doesn't show good fruit will be cut down. That is why we must all work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and keep seeking God, keep relying on Him and surrendering to Him, staying alert and awake for the rest of our lives. We don't want to end up like the virgins without oil.

We also need to look at what does Jesus mean that some will produce 30, 60, and 90. That those forgiven much love much. That we all have an unpayable debt so we should forgive other the small debit owed us. Each believe had a different purpose to make a whole. How do these play together to seeing changes in others? If someone like Paul who was killing Christians becomes a Christian we see a huge change, but if we someone that people thought was a good person become true believer, we might not notice too much difference. What are your thoughts?

 

[Emli]

I don't have all the answers. I remember God taught me about this at one time but i can't recall it now. Another important thing to keep in mind is when the disciples asked for more Faith, Jesus told them even if you have very little Faith, you still have Faith and that Faith will grow. It is not about our Faith, it is about Jesus. Our Faith isn't the Power that overcomes, it is Jesus that overcomes.

Can someone receive the Holy Spirit and then reject Him? I am not sure. Saul received the Holy Spirit, but didn't follow in God's Ways and then God took His Spirit and gave him a evil Spirit. But we see something similar when Paul tell us that beleivers that are living in sin will be disciplined back into repentance. I think the people that run race till the end were the truly repentance people.

John says those that believe love others because God Loves them. And that they don't live in sin.

At this time I don't have a good answer for you. I know that I am saved. Their where times that if Jesus wasn't holding my Salvation I would have walked away from Him. So I believe Jesus is the Author and Perfector of my Salvation. Salvation is a Gift. If it was up to me to lose it, I would. I am not strong enough to maintain my Salvation, Jesus is .That is why I believe if someone truly want Love in their life instead of power, greed, hate, bitterness, etc, Jesus acceptes them and doesn't let go. Jesus satisfies me. Why would I want to go back to my old life? But maybe some do, like Lot's wife.

I'm at work, with my phone and random access to the Internet, so I'm answering all of your posts in one message, and I can't google a lot ot Bible verses, and I may have missed some things, but I hope it came out comprehensible.

I agree with what you're saying about yourself. I think that applies to everyone who has truly been born-again. If we show fruit of the Holy Spirit and repentance, and keep showing fruit (which are not works), then we are saved. And if we know Jesus, by not only talking to Him, but by becoming like Him, step by step, we know that we have been chosen and will come to Heaven.

But there are those who do receive the Holy Spirit, but then walk away from God. Because they didn't continue in faith, they didn't want to press forward. I have seen proof that it does happen, as I said. I have seen the light of God in a person, then suddenly, it was gone. No Holy Spirit. And they were completely different afterwards, dead inside, and it wasn't just sin or demonic oppression, there was nothing good inside. If they were truly chosen, of course they would come back when God calls them back. But from what I heard, most of those who come back have not let go of God completely, they just wandered, but never really stopped believing. They just doubted and wandered.

I don't have to worry about my salvation, and neither do you, but those who live in willful sin do need to worry. Even though they have tasted the Heavenly gifts, may have seen and done miracles, prophecied, cast out demons (which requires the Holy Spirit and faith) etc, or even call Jesus Lord (for which we also need the Holy Spirit) that isn't proof that they will be saved in the end. They never knew Jesus, because they never surrendered to Him, never worshipped God in Spirit and in truth, doing His commandments. We cannot be sure of our salvation unless we see continual changes inside.

Sanctification is not a one time event, but it is the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer, that happens continually after we are saved. We are justified when we are saved, and born-again with a new nature. But we still sin, so we must keep being sanctified, and we must keep having our minds renewed, keep being transformed by the Holy Spirit into the image of Christ. That is what I believe is sanctification. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Philippians 1:6 and it is by grace that this happens. And we are sanctified by the Word of God, which means that we need to keep studying Scripture and do what it says. So many people are double-minded, having some faith, but ignoring what God has commanded, and I believe that it is those who end up losing their salvation unless they repent and change.

 

[bling]

We also need to look at what does Jesus mean that some will produce 30, 60, and 90. That those forgiven much love much. That we all have an unpayable debt so we should forgive other the small debit owed us. Each believe had a different purpose to make a whole. How do these play together to seeing changes in others? If someone like Paul who was killing Christians becomes a Christian we see a huge change, but if we someone that people thought was a good person become true believer, we might not notice too much difference. What are your thoughts?

I was a "good person" who became a "baptized believer" and I felt little change and others I feel saw little change. Christianity for me was a fun comfortable and an easy life, until I volunteered to substitute teach for a Sunday School class at the state prison. To become a baptized believer in prison meant giving up everything including your weapons to your former gang and taking a beating (everyone was member of a gang for protection). After becoming a Christian they put their life on the line every day and night from other gangs wanting payback and for other Christians needing protection, while constantly being watch for any sign of lack in commitment (weakness). They were fanatical about Christianity and nothing like I was. Who was the "good" Christian? I presented an extremely poor example of Christianity to them at the time and had false doctrinal answers to their questions which came hard and fast.
There were six teachers (Spiritual Giants) for the prison program teaching 40 of the fanatical Christians and others each week who I learned much from over the next year.

 

[Bobber]

I believe God is fully Sovereign. Frankly, I don't see an option to this, because if God isn't fully Sovereign, He can't bring about the end that He promised. In fact, none of a less-than-sovereign god's promises could be trusted.

I think they main area where people lose all perspective when talking about the subject of God's sovereignty is they just can't seem to connect that how he exercises it is hinged to his character. We've heard people say at times that person's actions are outside their character. We know that to understand that a character has perimeters. God has a character. It is LOVE. It's something he never leaves and YES even God's judgement can be considered a part of LOVE. If he never ever judged there would be no justice and if there was never any justice there would be no LOVE.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

I'm at work, with my phone and random access to the Internet, so I'm answering all of your posts in one message, and I can't google a lot ot Bible verses, and I may have missed some things, but I hope it came out comprehensible.

I agree with what you're saying about yourself. I think that applies to everyone who has truly been born-again. If we show fruit of the Holy Spirit and repentance, and keep showing fruit (which are not works), then we are saved. And if we know Jesus, by not only talking to Him, but by becoming like Him, step by step, we know that we have been chosen and will come to Heaven.

But there are those who do receive the Holy Spirit, but then walk away from God. Because they didn't continue in faith, they didn't want to press forward. I have seen proof that it does happen, as I said. I have seen the light of God in a person, then suddenly, it was gone. No Holy Spirit. And they were completely different afterwards, dead inside, and it wasn't just sin or demonic oppression, there was nothing good inside. If they were truly chosen, of course they would come back when God calls them back. But from what I heard, most of those who come back have not let go of God completely, they just wandered, but never really stopped believing. They just doubted and wandered.

I don't have to worry about my salvation, and neither do you, but those who live in willful sin do need to worry. Even though they have tasted the Heavenly gifts, may have seen and done miracles, prophecied, cast out demons (which requires the Holy Spirit and faith) etc, or even call Jesus Lord (for which we also need the Holy Spirit) that isn't proof that they will be saved in the end. They never knew Jesus, because they never surrendered to Him, never worshipped God in Spirit and in truth, doing His commandments. We cannot be sure of our salvation unless we see continual changes inside.

Sanctification is not a one time event, but it is the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer, that happens continually after we are saved. We are justified when we are saved, and born-again with a new nature. But we still sin, so we must keep being sanctified, and we must keep having our minds renewed, keep being transformed by the Holy Spirit into the image of Christ. That is what I believe is sanctification. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Philippians 1:6 and it is by grace that this happens. And we are sanctified by the Word of God, which means that we need to keep studying Scripture and do what it says. So many people are double-minded, having some faith, but ignoring what God has commanded, and I believe that it is those who end up losing their salvation unless they repent and change.

I'm not sure what you saw because I had someone say the sinners prayer and I thought that I saw change, but then I think it never was really change.

In my own life I wanted to be married and never met the right women. I got to the point that I thought that I was running out of time to get married and have children. I wasn't happy with my life at all. I didn't like my family, my job, the girlfriend I had. Then I got to the point where I started dating this women who was in medical school to become a doctor. I thought if I married someone with money then I would be happy. She wasn't a nice person. If we got married she wanted me to stay home with the children we had and she wanted to work. I was okay with this arrangement. Then I started learning more about her and she wasn't being honest and she was into some pretty bad stuff. I remember before I started dating this women asking Jesus why He gave me such an awful life. At this point dating this women I was going to wilfully turn away from Jesus. I was going to crusify Jesus in my heart. I felt He wasn't doing anything for me. This was odd because I didn't realize that Jesus was real and I wasn't following Him as my Lord and Savior. Maybe to some point, but not realizing it. I would say it was like Jacob before he wrestled with God. After I was determined to turn away from Jesus and follow this women in her sins, something happened in my life. It was like I died and went to hell. I was being tortured by all my sins. I thought to myself how will i be able to endure this for eternity when I can't endure this for a day. I was thinking that I must have died in a car accident. I was all alone and no where else to turn so i started praying the rosery. I grew up Catholic. Then I cried out "I lived an awful life Jesus, please save me if you can". The torment went on for a month until I talked with this concular that directed me to a church. A pastor there has me confess my sins and then I knew I was forgiven. I was so on fire for Jesus! I wanted everyone to be saved. Nobody would listen though. Then God showed me the church I was in was false teachers. I went to many others but the same. Then I realized that Jesus wanted to teach me Himself. One night after a Christian concert I broke down crying and Jesus filled me with so much Love that it felt like it was overflowing me. Jesus was telling me that He bless us to bless others. I experienced many miracles and even did some for others, but that didn't change them. They still wouldn't believe. So three years later I keep think the way we evangelize is by loving others. I am not a fast learner. In that time I remember trying to wilfully turn away from Jesus but I couldn't. I also told Jesus that I was fine and didn't need to change, I wanted to just lock myself in my house and not come out, but He told me that He was going to change me for His Glory, not mine.

 

[Emli]

I'm not sure what you saw because I had someone say the sinners prayer and I thought that I saw change, but then I think it never was really change.

In my own life I wanted to be married and never met the right women. I got to the point that I thought that I was running out of time to get married and have children. I wasn't happy with my life at all. I didn't like my family, my job, the girlfriend I had. Then I got to the point where I started dating this women who was in medical school to become a doctor. I thought if I married someone with money then I would be happy. She wasn't a nice person. If we got married she wanted me to stay home with the children we had and she wanted to work. I was okay with this arrangement. Then I started learning more about her and she wasn't being honest and she was into some pretty bad stuff. I remember before I started dating this women asking Jesus why He gave me such an awful life. At this point dating this women I was going to wilfully turn away from Jesus. I was going to crusify Jesus in my heart. I felt He wasn't doing anything for me. This was odd because I didn't realize that Jesus was real and I wasn't following Him as my Lord and Savior. Maybe to some point, but not realizing it. I would say it was like Jacob before he wrestled with God. After I was determined to turn away from Jesus and follow this women in her sins, something happened in my life. It was like I died and went to hell. I was being tortured by all my sins. I thought to myself how will i be able to endure this for eternity when I can't endure this for a day. I was thinking that I must have died in a car accident. I was all alone and no where else to turn so i started praying the rosery. I grew up Catholic. Then I cried out "I lived an awful life Jesus, please save me if you can". The torment went on for a month until I talked with this concular that directed me to a church. A pastor there has me confess my sins and then I knew I was forgiven. I was so on fire for Jesus! I wanted everyone to be saved. Nobody would listen though. Then God showed me the church I was in was false teachers. I went to many others but the same. Then I realized that Jesus wanted to teach me Himself. One night after a Christian concert I broke down crying and Jesus filled me with so much Love that it felt like it was overflowing me. Jesus was telling me that He bless us to bless others. I experienced many miracles and even did some for others, but that didn't change them. They still wouldn't believe. So three years later I keep think the way we evangelize is by loving others. I am not a fast learner. In that time I remember trying to wilfully turn away from Jesus but I couldn't. I also told Jesus that I was fine and didn't need to change, I wanted to just lock myself in my house and not come out, but He told me that He was going to change me for His Glory, not mine.

Thank you for sharing your testimony. You were in a false church with false beliefs, and then Jesus saved you for real. Praise Him! What you are saying describes true salvation and His nature.

The two people I'm talking about had both been saved for many years, and had shown real fruit of salvation, but later lost it. Both of them were at one point kind, but then I can also say that they are without a doubt the two most terrible people I have ever met, and after I prayed about it I was told by the Lord that they had been saved, but were no longer saved. I had believed in OSAS up until that point, but now I'm taking the Gospel more seriously than I ever thought I would, and I'm committing my life to teach true doctrines and help others be sanctified in Christ, so they won't fall away. The two people I'm talking about were absolute monsters, no good inside them. Both of them tried to get me to invite the devil back into my life in different ways (ex-witch with a dark past, saved by Jesus in every way possible). But both had had their prayers answered by God in the past, both had seen His goodness, both had felt the Holy Spirit, both of them cast demons out of me. But they were rebellious and unrepentant, angry and cruel, selfish, manipulative liars, then they just didn't want to live like Jesus Christ taught us, and they persisted in willful sin, and I have been told by God that they are no longer saved and that they were never chosen. What I saw was people who were given over to reprobate minds. Their behavior was evil. I don't use these words lightly, but the way they both hurt me showed that they no longer belonged to Jesus. I have forgiven both of them, but I can't pray for them, the Holy Spirit stops me...

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

Thank you for sharing your testimony. You were in a false church with false beliefs, and then Jesus saved you for real. Praise Him! What you are saying describes true salvation and His nature.

The two people I'm talking about had both been saved for many years, and had shown real fruit of salvation, but later lost it. Both of them were at one point kind, but then I can also say that they are without a doubt the two most terrible people I have ever met, and after I prayed about it I was told by the Lord that they had been saved, but were no longer saved. I had believed in OSAS up until that point, but now I'm taking the Gospel more seriously than I ever thought I would, and I'm committing my life to teach true doctrines and help others be sanctified in Christ, so they won't fall away. The two people I'm talking about were absolute monsters, no good inside them. Both of them tried to get me to invite the devil back into my life in different ways (ex-witch with a dark past, saved by Jesus in every way possible). But both had had their prayers answered by God in the past, both had seen His goodness, both had felt the Holy Spirit, both of them cast demons out of me. But they were rebellious and unrepentant, angry and cruel, selfish, manipulative liars, then they just didn't want to live like Jesus Christ taught us, and they persisted in willful sin, and I have been told by God that they are no longer saved and that they were never chosen. What I saw was people who were given over to reprobate minds. Their behavior was evil. I don't use these words lightly, but the way they both hurt me showed that they no longer belonged to Jesus. I have forgiven both of them, but I can't pray for them, the Holy Spirit stops me...

I am sorry that happened to you! I would like to comfort you somehow. I have questioned that and have foundfou Scripture it does elude to losing Salvation. In the New Testament letters I have found this because of what I read. But it also tells us that the Holy Spirit seals us and we are now citizen of Heaven.

Ephesians 1:9-14 NLT
God has now revealed to us his mysterious will regarding Christ-which is to fulfill his own good plan. [10] And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ-everything in heaven and on earth. [11] Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan. [12] God's purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. [13] And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. [14] The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

Thank you for sharing your testimony. You were in a false church with false beliefs, and then Jesus saved you for real. Praise Him! What you are saying describes true salvation and His nature.

The two people I'm talking about had both been saved for many years, and had shown real fruit of salvation, but later lost it. Both of them were at one point kind, but then I can also say that they are without a doubt the two most terrible people I have ever met, and after I prayed about it I was told by the Lord that they had been saved, but were no longer saved. I had believed in OSAS up until that point, but now I'm taking the Gospel more seriously than I ever thought I would, and I'm committing my life to teach true doctrines and help others be sanctified in Christ, so they won't fall away. The two people I'm talking about were absolute monsters, no good inside them. Both of them tried to get me to invite the devil back into my life in different ways (ex-witch with a dark past, saved by Jesus in every way possible). But both had had their prayers answered by God in the past, both had seen His goodness, both had felt the Holy Spirit, both of them cast demons out of me. But they were rebellious and unrepentant, angry and cruel, selfish, manipulative liars, then they just didn't want to live like Jesus Christ taught us, and they persisted in willful sin, and I have been told by God that they are no longer saved and that they were never chosen. What I saw was people who were given over to reprobate minds. Their behavior was evil. I don't use these words lightly, but the way they both hurt me showed that they no longer belonged to Jesus. I have forgiven both of them, but I can't pray for them, the Holy Spirit stops me...

We can also look at the Israelites. They failed to trust in Jesus to give them rest when they were to enter into the promised land. They never had true Faith in God. They always wanted to go back and they never really worshipped God.

Acts 7:39-43 NLT
"But our ancestors refused to listen to Moses. They rejected him and wanted to return to Egypt. [40] They told Aaron, 'Make us some gods who can lead us, for we don't know what has become of this Moses, who brought us out of Egypt.' [41] So they made an idol shaped like a calf, and they sacrificed to it and celebrated over this thing they had made. [42] Then God turned away from them and abandoned them to serve the stars of heaven as their gods! In the book of the prophets it is written, 'Was it to me you were bringing sacrifices and offerings during those forty years in the wilderness, Israel? [43] No, you carried your pagan gods- the shrine of Molech, the star of your god Rephan, and the images you made to worship them. So I will send you into exile as far away as Babylon.'

I would say that Jesus didn't fail, but they never believed. Not sure because you said that they did.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

Thank you for sharing your testimony. You were in a false church with false beliefs, and then Jesus saved you for real. Praise Him! What you are saying describes true salvation and His nature.

The two people I'm talking about had both been saved for many years, and had shown real fruit of salvation, but later lost it. Both of them were at one point kind, but then I can also say that they are without a doubt the two most terrible people I have ever met, and after I prayed about it I was told by the Lord that they had been saved, but were no longer saved. I had believed in OSAS up until that point, but now I'm taking the Gospel more seriously than I ever thought I would, and I'm committing my life to teach true doctrines and help others be sanctified in Christ, so they won't fall away. The two people I'm talking about were absolute monsters, no good inside them. Both of them tried to get me to invite the devil back into my life in different ways (ex-witch with a dark past, saved by Jesus in every way possible). But both had had their prayers answered by God in the past, both had seen His goodness, both had felt the Holy Spirit, both of them cast demons out of me. But they were rebellious and unrepentant, angry and cruel, selfish, manipulative liars, then they just didn't want to live like Jesus Christ taught us, and they persisted in willful sin, and I have been told by God that they are no longer saved and that they were never chosen. What I saw was people who were given over to reprobate minds. Their behavior was evil. I don't use these words lightly, but the way they both hurt me showed that they no longer belonged to Jesus. I have forgiven both of them, but I can't pray for them, the Holy Spirit stops me...

I would also look at the Scriptures that tell us that when we believe Jesus gives us a new heart. He takes the heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. Jesus changes us so we do follow Him.

Maybe your friends were just following rules, not actually changed. Maybe they went from one cult to a Christian cult that says you need to work out your Salvation, but that mean resting in Jesus. Abiding in Jesus.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

Thank you for sharing your testimony. You were in a false church with false beliefs, and then Jesus saved you for real. Praise Him! What you are saying describes true salvation and His nature.

The two people I'm talking about had both been saved for many years, and had shown real fruit of salvation, but later lost it. Both of them were at one point kind, but then I can also say that they are without a doubt the two most terrible people I have ever met, and after I prayed about it I was told by the Lord that they had been saved, but were no longer saved. I had believed in OSAS up until that point, but now I'm taking the Gospel more seriously than I ever thought I would, and I'm committing my life to teach true doctrines and help others be sanctified in Christ, so they won't fall away. The two people I'm talking about were absolute monsters, no good inside them. Both of them tried to get me to invite the devil back into my life in different ways (ex-witch with a dark past, saved by Jesus in every way possible). But both had had their prayers answered by God in the past, both had seen His goodness, both had felt the Holy Spirit, both of them cast demons out of me. But they were rebellious and unrepentant, angry and cruel, selfish, manipulative liars, then they just didn't want to live like Jesus Christ taught us, and they persisted in willful sin, and I have been told by God that they are no longer saved and that they were never chosen. What I saw was people who were given over to reprobate minds. Their behavior was evil. I don't use these words lightly, but the way they both hurt me showed that they no longer belonged to Jesus. I have forgiven both of them, but I can't pray for them, the Holy Spirit stops me...

Another story I can share with you is after I was Saved I was so scared that I was going to lose my Salvation. I kept asking Jesus. He told me that I wouldn't and He even proved it to me. He put in a situation were I would have lost my Salvation if it was up to me to keep it, but it is not up to me, it is up to Jesus. If it was up to me I would be earning it. But Salvation is a gift. The overwhelming theme in the Bible is God's Love for us, not our love for Him. From the beginning to the end He tells us all we need to do is repent and turn to Him to be saved. It is a free gift for all. I wasn't satisfied with what the world has to offer so I turned from the world to Love. I want Love and Forgiveness. I think it is that simple. What we want is what we get. Those that are statisfied with the world's way, which the Bible says is most people, get that, those that want Jesus's Way can have that freely we just need to accept it.

So if we want to change from pride, selfishness, greed, hate, bitterness, unforgiveness, laziness, etc, and turn to humility, selflessness, generosity, Love, Goodness, Kindness we can by turning to Jesus to Save us. I think it is that simple. Just rest in Jesus. Abide in Jesus and stop trying to earn or buy Salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I believe God is fully Sovereign. Frankly, I don't see an option to this, because if God isn't fully Sovereign, He can't bring about the end that He promised. In fact, none of a less-than-sovereign god's promises could be trusted.

Yet, I also believe God has, by His sovereign choice, allowed His grace to be resistible, because as He shared, through His Son to the woman at the well, He wants "those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth."

As I read the Scriptures, God will have the full number He has ordained (demonstrating His Sovereignty over all); but which of us will be among that number is something He has left to us.

Do you believe:

(1) God has willfully chosen to allow His grace to be resistible by humans? OR
(2) God only truly extends His grace to those He previously chose?
(3) God makes a resistible grace available to all and an irresistible grace to a subset within that all, so both can come, but the one subset will for sure?

What Scriptures do you use to support your view?

I say God gives us the ability to overcome temptation and evil but we do have the ability to resist or rebel against it. I think John 15:1-10 is a very good example of this. Jesus warns His 11 faithful apostles that they must produce fruit and abide in Him. There’s no doubt these 11 men were in fact believers so if they could not turn away from God why would Jesus bother with telling them to abide in Him? It would be a completely pointless teaching.

 

[Emli]

I would also look at the Scriptures that tell us that when we believe Jesus gives us a new heart. He takes the heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. Jesus changes us so we do follow Him.

Maybe your friends were just following rules, not actually changed. Maybe they went from one cult to a Christian cult that says you need to work out your Salvation, but that mean resting in Jesus. Abiding in Jesus.

I don't know what really happened to them, only God knows. I do know that one of them was always doubting, but she did really believe at first, until she stopped wanting God altogether, because she wanted to live like the world. She was raised Christian. And the other one got saved many years ago and believed in Jesus, but never really gave his life to Him, instead he kept rebelling. But they definitely had saving faith at first, they just never matured and instead fell away. That will happen a lot in the last days. They both fell prey for false doctrines, and they both chose sin over God. There was faith, but no lasting repentance.

The word seal may not mean what we think it means, we humans tend to jump to conclusions without really asking God first. I just prayed and asked God what it meant a few hours ago, so I'm sure that He will reveal it to me eventually.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

I say God gives us the ability to overcome temptation and evil but we do have the ability to resist or rebel against it. I think John 15:1-10 is a very good example of this. Jesus warns His 11 faithful apostles that they must produce fruit and abide in Him. There’s no doubt these 11 men were in fact believers so if they could not turn away from God why would Jesus bother with telling them to abide in Him? It would be a completely pointless teaching.

I think it all comes down to this. The whole Bible tells us it is about Jesus. The fact is we don't need the Bible. The Holy Spirit convicts us and seals us. It is all Jesus work from start to finish.

John 5:39-40 NLT
"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! [40] Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Love doesn't demand it own way. We have a choice, not because we want to, but because Jesus' Loves us.

Yes and God desires our love which true love is a gift given freely. Not something that can be taken by force or preprogrammed.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

Yes and God desires our love which true love is a gift given freely. Not something that can be taken by force or preprogrammed.

You are right. We love Jesus because He Loves us, not the other way around. Love, Trust, Hope, Forgiveness are all gifts from God.