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Featured Does God allow His grace to be resisted by humans or is it irresistible?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Sep 11, 2018.

  1. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe God is fully Sovereign. Frankly, I don't see an option to this, because if God isn't fully Sovereign, He can't bring about the end that He promised. In fact, none of a less-than-sovereign god's promises could be trusted.

    Yet, I also believe God has, by His sovereign choice, allowed His grace to be resistible, because as He shared, through His Son to the woman at the well, He wants "those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth."

    As I read the Scriptures, God will have the full number He has ordained (demonstrating His Sovereignty over all); but which of us will be among that number is something He has left to us.

    Do you believe:

    (1) God has willfully chosen to allow His grace to be resistible by humans? OR
    (2) God only truly extends His grace to those He previously chose?
    (3) God makes a resistible grace available to all and an irresistible grace to a subset within that all, so both can come, but the one subset will for sure?

    What Scriptures do you use to support your view?
     
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  2. Love &Forgiveness

    Love &Forgiveness Member

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    Salvation Plan

    God wants everyone to be saved.

    1 Timothy 2:3-6 NLT
    This is good and pleases God our Savior, [4] who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. [5] For, There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. [6] He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time.

    Jesus died to save everyone.

    John 3:16-17 NLT
    “For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. [17] God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

    But not everyone comes to Jesus.

    John 3:18-21 NLT
    “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. [19] And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. [20] All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. [21] But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants. ”

    This basically sums it up but there is more to say about this.

    None of us freely chooses Jesus.

    Romans 3:10-18 NLT
    As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one. [11] No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. [12] All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” [13] “Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.” [14] “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” [15] “They rush to commit murder. [16] Destruction and misery always follow them. [17] They don’t know where to find peace.” [18] “They have no fear of God at all.”

    Romans 3:23 NLT
    For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.

    We are convicted by the Holy Spirit to respond in Faith.

    John 6:44-51 NLT
    For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. [45] As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. [46] (Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.) [47] “I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life. [48] Yes, I am the bread of life! [49] Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness, but they all died. [50] Anyone who eats the bread from heaven, however, will never die. [51] I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; and this bread, which I will offer so the world may live, is my flesh.”

    We have the opportunity to respond in Faith because Jesus seek us, not that we seek Him.

    1 John 4:9-10 NLT
    God showed how much he loved us by sending his one and only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him. [10] This is real love—not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins.

    Salvation is a gift, not something we do.

    Ephesians 2:8-10 NLT
    God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. [9] Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. [10] For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

    We are saved by trusting Jesus to Save and Change us. We take on His Righteousness.

    Romans 3:21-22 NLT
    But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. [22] We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

    Jesus grows our Faith, we don't.

    Luke 13:18-21 NLT
    Then Jesus said, “What is the Kingdom of God like? How can I illustrate it? [19] It is like a tiny mustard seed that a man planted in a garden; it grows and becomes a tree, and the birds make nests in its branches.” [20] He also asked, “What else is the Kingdom of God like? [21] It is like the yeast a woman used in making bread. Even though she put only a little yeast in three measures of flour, it permeated every part of the dough.”

    It is through Faith that we are Saved and Changed.

    Romans 1:17 NLT
    This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”

    To summarize, nobody seeks God. We all are powerless to sin. Jesus comes into the world to save us. Jesus seeks us and convicts us of our sins. If we are not satisfied living in sin we turn to Jesus. If we are satisfied living in sin we don't turn to Jesus. Jesus knocks on the door of our hearts and we have the opportunity or gift to respond to Salvation. But what is Salvation? It is repenting of our sins, and turning to God through Faith in Jesus.

    Matthew 4:17 NLT
    From then on Jesus began to preach, “Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near. ”

    Matthew 5:3-10 NLT
    “God blesses those who are poor and realize their need for him, for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs. [4] God blesses those who mourn, for they will be comforted. [5] God blesses those who are humble, for they will inherit the whole earth. [6] God blesses those who hunger and thirst for justice, for they will be satisfied. [7] God blesses those who are merciful, for they will be shown mercy. [8] God blesses those whose hearts are pure, for they will see God. [9] God blesses those who work for peace, for they will be called the children of God. [10] God blesses those who are persecuted for doing right, for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.

    Acts 2:38 NLT
    Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 20:21 NLT
    I have had one message for Jews and Greeks alike—the necessity of repenting from sin and turning to God, and of having faith in our Lord Jesus.
     
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  3. Emli

    Emli Growing daughter of God Supporter

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    I believe that God's grace is both resistable and irresistable. I believe that grace becomes irresistable to us once we see that God is fully sovereign, completely good, holy and righteous and we are not, because He has opened our eyes, but our sins and our pride will keep us blind if we choose them, making it possible for us to resist Him.

    I believe that once we come to a point of conviction that we cannot do or be anything without Him, God's grace becomes irresistable to us, because we feel Him so strongly and we know that we need Him. But up until that point, we can resist it, and I believe that most of us do. We can grieve the Spirit if we choose sin, and He is the Spirit of Grace. Ephesians 4:30, Hebrews 10:29 The flesh is at constant war against the Spirit, and if we choose to walk in the flesh, we are resisting God and by extension God's grace, because we do not want to change.
    Paul's thorn in the flesh was there to buffet him so that he would be made weak, because God's grace is made perfect in weakness. 2 Corinthians 12:9. It is still our choice whether to submit to God or to keep sinning, and whether to keep walking with God or to leave the faith, which many do. God knows who are His, who will accept His grace and who will keep running the race until the end, and He has chosen each one of us who will and He won't let us be tempted beyond what we can handle in Him, or let us fall away. John 10:27-28, Matthew 24:13, Ephesians 1:4-5, 1 Corinthians 10:13. But God's grace is only irresistable to someone who knows that they need it, someone who sees their own sins, and who accepts Jesus as their Savior. Luke 18:9-14

    I therefore believe that God has pre-ordained those who He foreknew would hear His call and accept His grace, and that He has planned our lives and the work we will do for Him from the foundation of the world. God has offered His grace to everyone, John 3:16, and we don't know who are chosen until they become saved, only He knows. Many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22:11-14 I believe that this parable represents the ones who have been called, but have not accepted God's grace, but kept living in sin. (Because accepting God's grace means to put on His righteousness Revelation 19:8, Ephesians 4:24, Isaiah 61:10 etc)

    I think that may have come out a little incoherent. I'm at work, sorry.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  4. Love &Forgiveness

    Love &Forgiveness Member

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    Emli, can i lose my Salvation?
     
  5. Love &Forgiveness

    Love &Forgiveness Member

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    In my own life I can see that in my unsaved condition I somehow knew Jesus but wasn't following Him as my Lord and Savior. I never would have choose to follow Him. Then I was convicted of my sins. I cried out "I lived an awful life Jesus, please save me if you can". My conviction went on until I confessed my sins and asked for forgiveness and until i accepted Jesus's Forgiveness. What i realize is that I never would have looked for Jesus. I thought that I was going to Heaven because I grew up Catholic and was baptized and was confirmed, but I know now none of that does anything for Salvation. Salvation is Jesus knocking at the door of our heart, and we are given a Way out of our mess. We just realize that we are powerless to Save and Change ourselves, that means that we want to be Saved and Changed from who we are, so we turn to God through Faith in Jesus. Salvation is initiated by Jesus and accomplished by Jesus. We can't Save and Change ourselves. When we do change it is through the Power of Jesus. Our part is to put all of our Trust and Hope in Jesus, Jesus's part is to work in us. When we turn to Jesus, He holds on to us, we are too weak to hold on. Jesus initiates and completes our Salvation. We love and trust Him because Jesus Loves and shows us that He is Trustworthy. We don't do anything on our part but want to be Saved and Changed when Jesus knocks at our heart. Jesus gives us the Gift of Salvation. All we do is respond yes or no then Jesus takes over from there.
     
  6. Love &Forgiveness

    Love &Forgiveness Member

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    Love doesn't demand it own way. We have a choice, not because we want to, but because Jesus' Loves us.
     
  7. Richard T

    Richard T Well-Known Member

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    Galatians 2:21 (KJV)
    21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
    From this scripture it seems possible to frustrate the grace of God. Paul would not frustrate the grace but others less spiritual can. The word in Greek is: atheteō
    Vine's Words:
    Disannul, Disannulling, Nought, Reject, Void
     
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  8. Uber Genius

    Uber Genius "Super Genius"

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    We have a conundrum here. On the one hand we have passages suggesting God gets his will done, on the other we have passages suggesting that humans and angels can freely rebel and have. The question is are we on the horns of a dilemma, or is there a third option that allows us to affirm both free agency and sovereignty?

    On one hand we have thousands of passages that require that we have free will and rationality in order to fulfill those commands. Commands to study, to gain wisdom, to do certain actions obediently, or to not do other actions. These passages are just theatre misrepresenting man as having freedom when he does not on Calvinism.

    As William Lane Craig points out, "Calvinistic doctrine of providence which says that God’s sovereignty is so great over the affairs of humankind that God unilaterally determines everything that happens in the world. On this view human freedom, though affirmed, really reduces to a kind of voluntarism – human beings do voluntarily what God has predestined or predetermined them to do. But they don’t really have the power to do otherwise, and they don’t really make up their minds themselves. It is not as though it is up to them what happens since everything is predetermined by God."

    Arminianism (as represented currently though not originally),
    "God looks into the future so to speak, sees what is going to happen, and therefore foreordains that it will happen. His foreordination is based upon his foreknowledge of what is going to take place. On this view, God’s sovereignty is emasculated. It becomes a kind of fifth wheel that really bears no weight whatsoever because the future is what is going to happen."

    Finally, there is a third view which posits God has a hypothetical knowledge that is different between his free knowledge and his natural knowledge. This is called middle-knowledge. God can intuit what the outcome of specific worlds will be by intuiting what free agents would do in each world and choosing the world that most closely accomplishes his will.

    Now everything that God wanted to happen would happen sovereignly in this view. Further, agents would be free, and responsible for their own actions, alleviating God for the responsibility of sin (which he has on Calvinism).

    William Lane Craig describes the historical development of molinism here:

    https://www.reasonablefaith.org/pod...-of-creation/the-doctrine-of-creation-part-14
     
  9. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Sometimes I just assume that the translators were honest. Frustrate is a far cry from disannulling, voiding, or rejecting.

    Bibleworks shares the word meaning as follows:
    114 avqete,w atheteo {ath-et-eh'-o}
    Meaning: 1) to do away with, to set aside, disregard 2) to thwart the efficacy of anything, nullify, make void, frustrate 3) to reject, to refuse, to slight
    Origin: from a compound of 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 5087; TDNT - 8:158,1176; v
    Usage: AV - despise 8, reject 4, bring to nothing 1, frustrate 1, disannul 1, cast off 1; 16
     
  10. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am confused. It seems like you said three different things in successive posts. One sounds calvinist, one sounds free choice (becuase a loving God would never force), and then the last sounds like you are questioning if you could be saved and lose it? Do you believe the more calvinist or the more choice one or both?
     
  11. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It seems as though, from how you wrote it, that you believe that grace is resistible to the extent that someone cannot see their true condition and the Truth about God, so are you speaking of the prevenient irresistible grace to "see" being what you considered irresistible?
     
  12. Richard T

    Richard T Well-Known Member

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    If I can assume grace is unmerited favor. There are so many blessings that God has for his people, yet often we harden our heart, have the wrong ground to grow, fail to sow the word, fail to believe in His promises. All of this means we may wander like Israel until we get and accept the grace. God is waiting, and some believers collect precious jewels while others nothing but wood, hay and stubble. Does this take away from God's sovereignty? To me not at all. He can adjust and still make everything true to prophecy. God also can create events in lives to get you on the path. Paul was struck down with blindness, God got his attention pretty quick. This seems to suggest that there is a subset of events that God is going to make happen, no matter what. In many things though, God leaves us to chart our own course. I do not think it is just 30, 60 or 100 fold. The gamut likely runs from 0 to a hundred fold. If we fail individually, God will raise up others to make the difference. Many are called but few are chosen.

    As to unbelievers, they completely ignore God's grace, As Romans describes, they reject God and their foolish heart is darkened. Some might change their mind at a later date but many will be lost. Nothing that unbelievers do will stop God's general will for everyone. Their sins might cause reactions from God, there are plenty of those judgements in the bible. God will still accomplish what he intends to though. I don't know if this answers the question directly, but at the macro level God gets it done. At the micro level, there are plenty of adjustments that can take place.
     
  13. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't understand how God's sovereignty is emasculated because he has foreknowledge or how He would be more potent when human cooperation (congruism) is required for His plan to come to fruition?
     
  14. Love &Forgiveness

    Love &Forgiveness Member

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    I believe God is Sovereign. He chooses who will be Saved and who wouldn't. I believe that God knew before the beginning of time who would be Saved and who wouldn't be Saved. I believe that God doesn't force anyone to be Saved. I believe that God wants all to be saved.

    Salvation is:
    God's Choice. He wants all to be Saved.
    Planned before time began.
    Everyone is given the opportunity to be Saved.

    How do these fit together?

    God is Sovereign that He allows us to live in sin or live in Him. We all get what we want. Love doesn't demand its own Way. The Prodigal Son.

    God planned Salvation before time began. Everything works for the Good of those who love God. People ask why bad things happen. I ask would anyone look up if they had a perfect life? The Israelite called out to God because they were enslaved. They cried out to God because they were blocked by the Red Sea and the Egyptian Army. They cried out for food and water in the wilderness because they had need. They looked to God when they started losing the battles they fought. Jesus learned obedience through the things He suffered, so do we. When times were good for the Israelite they forgot God. God also uses evil people to accomplish His Will. ALL things work for the Good of those who love Jesus, the good and the bad. Paul was given a thorn in his side which he called Grace.

    The Holy Spirit is at work in the world to convict people of their sins. Some people are softened and some people are hardened. In Revelation we see that God sends plagues and natural disasters and people still refuse to repent of their sins. This is the story of the Egyptians. God sent plagues and natural disasters to show the Egyptians that what they worshiped wasn't going to Save them, God was. God destroyed their idols, but they still refused to repent. They were baptized into death in the Red Sea. They hide from God rather than repent and turn to God. God is knocking at our hearts. Jesus seeks for His lost sheep.

    You need to bad to see the good. That can be seen in two ways. Light contracts dark, and discipline can create positive change.
     
  15. Emli

    Emli Growing daughter of God Supporter

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    I don't believe that it's that simple, or that grace is that easy to define. Is it grace when God opens our eyes?

    In the same way that conviction comes before repentance, repentance also comes before grace (God's free gift of salvation and the transformation and everything else that comes with it). God would never, ever force us to come to Him, but once He convicts us and opens our eyes, calling us to Himself, we may come running to Him willingly with open eyes, a choice based on truth. The truth either about God and/or of our own sinfulness. Would God force our eyes to be opened? In a sense He did that to Paul, but it was to save him. Was that grace, or conviction? I believe that it was conviction at first, then Paul accepted Jesus and received grace. Could Paul have rejected God? According to God's nature, yes, but not according to God's plan. When Jesus talked to the Pharisees, they refused to open their eyes or believe, despite seeing that Jesus was God, so they never received grace, but they did receive evidence that Jesus was who He said He is. Is evidence grace? All unrepentant sinners will receive evidence of God's existence one day, but they will not receive grace.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  16. Emli

    Emli Growing daughter of God Supporter

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    Yes, I believe you can. I have seen it happen to two people, but it takes a lot. If you turn from God, He will call you back and He will chastise you when you don't listen (as a good Father), but if you keep resisting Him, rejecting Him, He will eventually let you go. Because He isn't going to force you to be in a relationship with Him or to come to Heaven. In the same way, if you wilfully live in sin, not caring what God thinks, rebelling without a guilty consience, and persist in it despite rebuke, He will eventually turn you over to a reprobate mind. But as I said, it takes a lot. I have seen both happen, and they both lived disastrous, unrepentant lives without guilt, both resisting every time God called them back. One of them blasphemed God and Jesus and everything that is holy and even committed the unforgivable sin many, many times.

    A repentant child of God cannot lose their salvation, no matter how much they stumble, because God keeps them safe and cleans them up. I know I couldn't lose my salvation. Technically I could, but not realistically, because when I have stumbled and fallen, God has brought me back to Him. The difference is that I choose to rely on Him and I choose to let Him work in me and I choose to have faith, not resisting Him. I couldn't possibly resist Him, and especially not after having seen what happened to those two people.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  17. Emli

    Emli Growing daughter of God Supporter

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    Salvation is all His work in us, but it is still our choice whether to obey or not. My faith is given to me by God and He enables me to choose Him, and to live according to His will, by the new nature, by the Holy Spirit and with the truth that He has taught me, and that is all grace. But if I reject that, then I would be resisting grace.

    It is irresistable to me not to live for God though. My eyes are so wide open. I told a colleague yesterday I could never give up my faith. I could never not believe, never not keep seeking God, never not live for Him and live by the faith that He has given me. I have seen too much, know too much, and during the times that I have gone back into sin, and I have sinned a lot and I have resisted the Holy Spirit temporarily, I have cried out to God to save me every day, every hour, regretting every wrong choice. Because I missed Him, but mostly because the Bible is true, and I wouldn't ever be able to even consider not living for the Gospel. That would be no life at all, no sense of living, just a life wasting away.

    God has many times warned me to turn around, because I was on the broad road or about to enter it, and the warning in itself wasn't irresistable, but seeing Jesus on the narrow road was. God, and everything that He is, is irresistable to someone who is truly born-again. But not to those who aren't.

    There was a time last year when I was very afraid, and stubborn, and I was running away from God and my calling like Jonah. God then told me in the Spirit that He will never let me fall away, and He will also not let anything stop the plans that He has for me, then He said "Come back home!" everyday for months as He was chastising me and also overcoming my fears for me. That knowledge in itself made me trust Him, because I want His will to be done, and if that includes me, I'm choosing Him. That was irresistable to me, and He pulled me out of the whale that had swallowed me. It took me months to come back, but God kept calling and I kept running to Him. It takes very little from God to get me to repent, all due to the work of the Holy Spirit in me, which is what should happen to every born-again Christian. But not everyone listens. Many people stays in darkness for a long time, before coming back to God, and many people die in their sins, unsaved. What is the difference? Of course being chosen ultimately changes the outcome. But does God let go, or does man let go, when someone turns away from God? What is it that ultimately stops someone from running the race and persevering to the end? (Without bringing circumstances, pride, sin, satan etc into the discussion) The will of God (though He wants no one to perish) or the will of man?
     
  18. Love &Forgiveness

    Love &Forgiveness Member

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    This is when people return to their old way of living.

    2 Peter 2:17-22 NLT
    These people are as useless as dried-up springs or as mist blown away by the wind. They are doomed to blackest darkness. [18] They brag about themselves with empty, foolish boasting. With an appeal to twisted sexual desires, they lure back into sin those who have barely escaped from a lifestyle of deception. [19] They promise freedom, but they themselves are slaves of sin and corruption. For you are a slave to whatever controls you. [20] And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. [21] It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. [22] They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”

    This is discipline to turn back to God.

    1 Corinthians 5:1-5 NLT
    I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother. [2] You are so proud of yourselves, but you should be mourning in sorrow and shame. And you should remove this man from your fellowship. [3] Even though I am not with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit. And as though I were there, I have already passed judgment on this man [4] in the name of the Lord Jesus. You must call a meeting of the church. I will be present with you in spirit, and so will the power of our Lord Jesus. [5] Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns.

    Does the Message take root?

    Matthew 13:18-23 NLT
    “Now listen to the explanation of the parable about the farmer planting seeds: [19] The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts. [20] The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy. [21] But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word. [22] The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God’s word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced. [23] The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!”

    Suffering purifies us and produces Fruit in us.

    1 Peter 1:3-7 NLT
    All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation, [4] and we have a priceless inheritance—an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay. [5] And through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see. [6] So be truly glad. There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you must endure many trials for a little while. [7] These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold— though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.

    Either Filled with Good or evil.

    Luke 11:20-32 NLT
    But if I am casting out demons by the power of God, then the Kingdom of God has arrived among you. [21] For when a strong man is fully armed and guards his palace, his possessions are safe— [22] until someone even stronger attacks and overpowers him, strips him of his weapons, and carries off his belongings. [23] “Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me. [24] “When an evil spirit leaves a person, it goes into the desert, searching for rest. But when it finds none, it says, ‘I will return to the person I came from.’ [25] So it returns and finds that its former home is all swept and in order. [26] Then the spirit finds seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they all enter the person and live there. And so that person is worse off than before.” [27] As he was speaking, a woman in the crowd called out, “God bless your mother—the womb from which you came, and the breasts that nursed you!” [28] Jesus replied, “But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice.” [29] As the crowd pressed in on Jesus, he said, “This evil generation keeps asking me to show them a miraculous sign. But the only sign I will give them is the sign of Jonah. [30] What happened to him was a sign to the people of Nineveh that God had sent him. What happens to the Son of Man will be a sign to these people that he was sent by God. [31] “The queen of Sheba will stand up against this generation on judgment day and condemn it, for she came from a distant land to hear the wisdom of Solomon. Now someone greater than Solomon is here—but you refuse to listen. [32] The people of Nineveh will also stand up against this generation on judgment day and condemn it, for they repented of their sins at the preaching of Jonah. Now someone greater than Jonah is here—but you refuse to repent.

    Matthew 12:38-50 NLT
    One day some teachers of religious law and Pharisees came to Jesus and said, “Teacher, we want you to show us a miraculous sign to prove your authority.” [39] But Jesus replied, “Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign; but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah. [40] For as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. [41] “The people of Nineveh will stand up against this generation on judgment day and condemn it, for they repented of their sins at the preaching of Jonah. Now someone greater than Jonah is here—but you refuse to repent. [42] The queen of Sheba will also stand up against this generation on judgment day and condemn it, for she came from a distant land to hear the wisdom of Solomon. Now someone greater than Solomon is here—but you refuse to listen. [43] “When an evil spirit leaves a person, it goes into the desert, seeking rest but finding none. [44] Then it says, ‘I will return to the person I came from.’ So it returns and finds its former home empty, swept, and in order. [45] Then the spirit finds seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they all enter the person and live there. And so that person is worse off than before. That will be the experience of this evil generation.” [46] As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. [47] Someone told Jesus, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, and they want to speak to you.” [48] Jesus asked, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” [49] Then he pointed to his disciples and said, “Look, these are my mother and brothers. [50] Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!”
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  19. Emli

    Emli Growing daughter of God Supporter

    +3,050
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    You have used those passages correctly, but it is much more complicated than that. What is your point, in your own words?
     
  20. Love &Forgiveness

    Love &Forgiveness Member

    300
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    My point is that Salvation is done from start to finish by Faith, not by our good works. Good works are the result of Faith.

    Romans 1:17 NLT
    This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life."

    Salvation is accomplished by Jesus, not us. It is a gift, not earned. Their is nothing we can do to earn it. It is a gift.

    Once we receive the Holy Spirit we are sealed for Eternity. If I could lose my Salvation I would have already look it. Jesus is holding my Salvation in His Hands, I am not.

    We can look at the 12 disciples. They followed Jesus for over three years before they believed and Judas never turned to Jesus.

    I see two believers in the Bible. Ones that wants Jesus for who He is and ones that want Jesus for what He can do for them.

    Many people followed Jesus because of the miracles He did, but when He told them that He was the True Prize they stopped following Him. Many people praised Him during His triumphant entry to Jerusalem, but then turned their backs on Him later in the week.

    People that truly repent and turn to God through Faith in Jesus alone are truly Saved forever. They have already passed from death to life.

    People that are using Jesus for their own purposes aren't Saved. Judas and most of the Jews only cared about money, power, and the praise of others, not about praising and worshipping Jesus. They say they are following God, but their actions prove that they aren't.
     
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