Does God’s unconditional Love detract from His Glory?

[bling]

I thought up until recently most Christians believed God’s Love to be unconditional toward everyone, but by being on this board, found people who believed God does not Love some people and so I have had to rethink this conclusion.

1. Would unconditional Love for everyone detract or add to God’s glory?
   
   
2. Would God having unconditional Love be ultimately glorious?
   
   
3. Was the glory of the prodigal son’s father seen in his unconditional Love for his sons and would his love been different if the son had not returned?
   
   
4. Another parallel issue comes with the belief: “God is doing everything and everything He does is to gain glory (really a selfish motivation for God)”, which is selfish and not “Loving”? This is not to say everything God does is not glorious, but glory is not the motivation.
   
   
5. If God does not Love some people how can God be omnibenevolent?
   
   
6. When did Christ ever express conditional Love for anyone?
   
   
7. God can hate people but by Deity’s definition of hate; it is not the opposite of Love and as we are to hate and Love our family at the same time God can hate and Love at the same time, so no lack of Love there?
   
   
8. Jesus Loved the rich young ruler who walked away from Him and now I am told that is because the rich man was part of the “elect” and he would change later, so if the rich young ruler was not part of the “elect” would Jesus not care anything about him or even hate him?
   
   
9. I realize some will say: “If God Love is unconditional toward everyone than everyone would be saved”, but that is another issue with Love (in Forgiveness) being a transaction requiring the acceptance of the Love (Matt. 18 is a lengthy subject). So let’s stick to my questions.
   

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well his love is unconditional in that anyone no matter their ethnicity, age, sex, etc can accept his love. But it is conditional in that only those who believe and continue to believe will experience his love throughout eternity.

IOW, God in his love provided a way for all people to be saved, but only those who believe will be so.

I read once from AW Tozer that God does not surrender one attribute to operate in another. So he does not stop loving in order to be holy. He is both holy and loving at all times. This is why Jesus saved the woman caught in adultery yet told her to sin no more.

If that made any sense

 

[razzelflabben]

I thought up until recently most Christians believed God’s Love to be unconditional toward everyone, but by being on this board, found people who believed God does not Love some people and so I have had to rethink this conclusion.

let me first say that without question if we understand God's love it is without doubt unconditional. I've been in deep study of Biblical Love for about 10 years or more now and I have no doubt God loves everyone with an unconditional Love. The problem is that most people don't understand Love or what it means. (capital L for Biblical Love) So to answer your questions....

1. Would unconditional Love for everyone detract or add to God’s glory?

Unconditional Love is the crowning jewel so to speak for His glory. In fact, scripture tells us that He is Love. If Love has conditions it is not Love at all.

2. Would God having unconditional Love be ultimately glorious?

Without doubt. I just finished an email about this very issue. Unconditional Love is what everyone is seeking, we see that in scripture and in everyday life. It is the one thing that is consistent throughout all the diversity in the world. So when we find unconditional Love it is a very glorious thing indeed.

3. Was the glory of the prodigal son’s father seen in his unconditional Love for his sons and would his love been different if the son had not returned?

This seems to be where many people get confused about unconditional love. We currently have a son who is "running" from us. In fact, he hasn't spoken to me personally in almost 2 years. It doesn't stop me from loving him nor would it ever stop me from welcoming him home. We miss him and Love him unconditionally. Likewise this question gets into the whole discussion about hell. But hell is a consequence not a punishment for. It's like saying if you run out in front of a moving car you will be hit and killed. The child running into the street in front of the car does nothing to remove the Father's Love. The grief the Father knows is evidence enough of the Love that is unconditional.

1. Another parallel issue comes with the belief: “God is doing everything and everything He does is to gain glory (really a selfish motivation for God)”, which is selfish and not “Loving”? This is not to say everything God does is not glorious, but glory is not the motivation.

According to scripture everything God does is to restore glory to us not Himself. I'm not sure where this idea above comes from maybe if I understood where it is coming from I would be able to answer it better.

1. If God does not Love some people how can God be omnibenevolent?

Again, God Loves everyone but this question seems to flirt with another common misunderstanding of Biblical Love. The opposite of Biblical Love is NOT hate but pride. We can talk more about this if you want but just because God hates some as in "Jacob I Love, Esau I hate" does not mean that Esau was not Loved with an unconditional Love because Love and hate can coexist at least as used in scripture. Hate is a strong emotion, worldly love also is a strong emotion but Biblical Love is so much more than an emotion that there is no contest on this one once we begin to grasp what Love really is.

1. When did Christ ever express conditional Love for anyone?

When didn't He? I'm really not sure I understand the question.

1. God can hate people but by Deity’s definition of hate; it is not the opposite of Love and as we are to hate and Love our family at the same time God can hate and Love at the same time, so no lack of Love there?

Amen...see above....

1. Jesus Loved the rich young ruler who walked away from Him and now I am told that is because the rich man was part of the “elect” and he would change later, so if the rich young ruler was not part of the “elect” would Jesus not care anything about him or even hate him?

People who claim that God's Love is conditional have no understanding of what LOVE is or who God is or both. This argument shows a lack of understanding of what scripture says about the "Elect" as well. But maybe that is a different discussion altogether (what elect means)

1. I realize some will say: “If God Love is unconditional toward everyone than everyone would be saved”, but that is another issue with Love (in Forgiveness) being a transaction requiring the acceptance of the Love (Matt. 18 is a lengthy subject). So let’s stick to my questions.

Amen...I obviously love this subject matter, thanks for posting the questions.

 

[afishamongmany]

Hi Bling,
As John tells us in I John 4:16, "God is love.". That means that, what God is defines what love is.
Most people, including many Christians, try to to define what God is to conform to their idea of what love should be. There from arises much misunderstanding and disagreement.
The definition of 'unconditional' is also not as simple as some would have it.
Go well, go wisely,
><>

 

[razzelflabben]

Well his love is unconditional in that anyone no matter their ethnicity, age, sex, etc can accept his love. But it is conditional in that only those who believe and continue to believe will experience his love throughout eternity.

accepting a Love that is given is NOT the same thing as giving Love in the first place.

IOW, God in his love provided a way for all people to be saved, but only those who believe will be so.

that is about accepting the unconditional Love that is given, not about whether or not the Love given is unconditional. IOW's I can Love my son and he can reject that Love but I don't remove it just because he rejects it, if I did it would be conditional love. By giving that Love whether or not he accepts it it is unconditional Love. The benefits of that Love require acceptance but the Love itself does not.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I can see that explanation of it, but to me his love has different levels if you will. Because to say God has unconditional love for all people regardless of believing or not almost makes it sound as though he will save them in unbelief. I know I am not explaining this the way I want to, but I will do my best.

God's love is unconditional in that he sets no conditions on giving it. He gave it freely to all people. It is conditional in another aspect that only those who believe in His Son will experience the full measure of his love as expressed in salvation.

All people on the planet right now experience God's love in one measure. The sunlight, food, drink, clothing, etc. God makes the sun shine on the just and unjust alike.

But God's love that results in salvation only goes to those who believe.

 

[razzelflabben]

I can see that explanation of it, but to me his love has different levels if you will. Because to say God has unconditional love for all people regardless of believing or not almost makes it sound as though he will save them in unbelief. I know I am not explaining this the way I want to, but I will do my best.

God's love is unconditional in that he sets no conditions on giving it. He gave it freely to all people. It is conditional in another aspect that only those who believe in His Son will experience the full measure of his love as expressed in salvation.

All people on the planet right now experience God's love in one measure. The sunlight, food, drink, clothing, etc. God makes the sun shine on the just and unjust alike.

But God's love that results in salvation only goes to those who believe.

and salvation is for all who are brave enough to believe....I am pretty sure I get what you are saying and I agree to a point. IOW's the point you are making is solid but the way you are making it is lacking.

Let's put it another way. You talk about how saying God's Love is unconditional makes it sound like all people regardless of believe are saved...fair enough. But when we say that God's Love is conditional it sounds like I have to be "perfect" or "worthy" or "elect" in order to benefit from His Love. Neither of which is true. What is true is that God's Love is unconditional, immeasurable, unfathomable but to enjoy the benefits of that Love we need to accept it through belief.

 

[CrystalDragon]

I thought up until recently most Christians believed God’s Love to be unconditional toward everyone, but by being on this board, found people who believed God does not Love some people and so I have had to rethink this conclusion.

1. Would unconditional Love for everyone detract or add to God’s glory?
   
   
2. Would God having unconditional Love be ultimately glorious?
   
   
3. Was the glory of the prodigal son’s father seen in his unconditional Love for his sons and would his love been different if the son had not returned?
   
   
4. Another parallel issue comes with the belief: “God is doing everything and everything He does is to gain glory (really a selfish motivation for God)”, which is selfish and not “Loving”? This is not to say everything God does is not glorious, but glory is not the motivation.
   
   
5. If God does not Love some people how can God be omnibenevolent?
   
   
6. When did Christ ever express conditional Love for anyone?
   
   
7. God can hate people but by Deity’s definition of hate; it is not the opposite of Love and as we are to hate and Love our family at the same time God can hate and Love at the same time, so no lack of Love there?
   
   
8. Jesus Loved the rich young ruler who walked away from Him and now I am told that is because the rich man was part of the “elect” and he would change later, so if the rich young ruler was not part of the “elect” would Jesus not care anything about him or even hate him?
   
   
9. I realize some will say: “If God Love is unconditional toward everyone than everyone would be saved”, but that is another issue with Love (in Forgiveness) being a transaction requiring the acceptance of the Love (Matt. 18 is a lengthy subject). So let’s stick to my questions.

The existence of hell shows that God's love isn't unconditional. There's apparently limits.

 

[razzelflabben]

The existence of hell shows that God's love isn't unconditional. There's apparently limits.

how so? Hell is the consequence of sin not the punishment for it...thus those who go to hell do so on their own pride and defiance. Equally true is that God does not wish for any to go to hell thus again a demonstration of God's unconditional Love. So again I ask how so?

 

[CrystalDragon]

how so? Hell is the consequence of sin not the punishment for it...thus those who go to hell do so on their own pride and defiance. Equally true is that God does not wish for any to go to hell thus again a demonstration of God's unconditional Love. So again I ask how so?

Eternal torture is the opposite of love or goodness. No one would choose to go to hell if there was another option. Having an option for the bad people like a prison would be fair punishment. Having eternal torture as the only option aside from heaven—a torture that God created and knows what will happen and who will go there and apparently it's according to his will—is malevolent and a cruel "choice".

 

[razzelflabben]

Eternal torture is the opposite of love or goodness. No one would choose to go to hell if there was another option. Having an option for the bad people like a prison would be fair punishment. Having eternal torture as the only option aside from heaven—a torture that God created and knows what will happen and who will go there and apparently it's according to his will—is malevolent and a cruel "choice".

now wait a moment..."hell" is eternal separation from God. Every person who chooses not to follow God is choosing to face the consequences of his own sin, which is death.

Maybe we need to talk about why death (the separation from God) is the consequence of sin?

As to torture being the opposite of Love you are wrong, the opposite of Biblical Love is pride which includes but is not limited to justice.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Eternal torture is the opposite of love or goodness. No one would choose to go to hell if there was another option.

There is another option...

His name is Jesus

 

[bling]

The existence of hell shows that God's love isn't unconditional. There's apparently limits.

The existence of “hell” is not there to help those that go there. God does not want anyone to go to hell, but heaven where God is and hell were God is not are the only two places left after earth.

Those that go to hell are those who have repeatedly refused God’s help (charity/Love) to the point they would never accept such a Love. These people do not like unconditional/unselfish/undeserved type love, they do not want to be Loved like that nor do they want that type Love for themselves. Heaven is one huge Love feast, but the Love there is only Godly type Love, so those going to hell would not like heaven, but that is the only other place to go.

God reaches a point where He cannot do anything more for those going to hell, but they can then be used to help those which can still decide to accept God’s charity and that is what happens. Hell can help those still deciding about humbly accepting God’s charity to do it quickly partly out of fear of hell.

 

[CrystalDragon]

There is another option...

His name is Jesus

I don't think you get what I'm saying here.

People can't force themselves to "believe in Jesus". Some people have their brains wired to be less inclined to believe in religion. So apparently if people don't believe, they go to hell? Why can't here be another option for not believing?

The existence of “hell” is not there to help those that go there. God does not want anyone to go to hell, but heaven where God is and hell were God is not are the only two places left after earth.

If God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, why create it?

Those that go to hell are those who have repeatedly refused God’s help (charity/Love) to the point they would never accept such a Love. These people do not like unconditional/unselfish/undeserved type love, they do not want to be Loved like that nor do they want that type Love for themselves. Heaven is one huge Love feast, but the Love there is only Godly type Love, so those going to hell would not like heaven, but that is the only other place to go.

But apparently people go to hell for just not believing. Torture for just not believing? Especially when God doesn't show himself as in the Old and New Testaments? Don't you find that cruel?

And how do we know God is love? Hell is the opposite oflove, let alone "perfect love". God said his name was jealous and that he's wrathful, he commanded genocide, approved of slavery, and said he'd make disobedient followers eat the flesh of their sons and daughters. How is that anything resembling love of any kind?

God reaches a point where He cannot do anything more for those going to hell, but they can then be used to help those which can still decide to accept God’s charity and that is what happens. Hell can help those still deciding about humbly accepting God’s charity to do it quickly partly out of fear of hell.

Saying God "can't do anything more for them" implies limits on God's power. People can come up with plenty of other afterlife options that don't involve eternal torture. Heck, the Old Testament had no hell, just Sheol which was like a Greek underworld where everyone went when they died. Why would God only come up with the choices of "eternal peace in heaven" vs. "eternal torture in hell"? Why was there no mention of either in the Old Testament where it seems the afterlife was completely different?

 

[razzelflabben]

I don't think you get what I'm saying here.

People can't force themselves to "believe in Jesus". Some people have their brains wired to be less inclined to believe in religion. So apparently if people don't believe, they go to hell? Why can't here be another option for not believing?

belief unto salvation is a belief of the heart not the mind...think here a determination is the closest single word I can find to describe it. As such it is NOT out of the reach of anyone.

If God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, why create it?

scripture says it was created for Satan and his band of renegade angels but will be used for those people who reject Christ.

But apparently people go to hell for just not believing. Torture for just not believing? Especially when God doesn't show himself as in the Old and New Testaments? Don't you find that cruel?

Torture is an interesting word, it can have two meanings, one is that that which is torturous, for example, I broke my arm and the pain was torture...the other meaning is that pain inflicted on someone by another person. when most people have a problem with hell they intend the second meaning, that in which God is inflicting pain on the unbeliever. Scripture however paints a different picture one in which the unbeliever chooses torture for himself. The question then becomes are you talking about your version of hell or scripture's?

And how do we know God is love? Hell is the opposite oflove, let alone "perfect love". God said his name was jealous and that he's wrathful, he commanded genocide, approved of slavery, and said he'd make disobedient followers eat the flesh of their sons and daughters. How is that anything resembling love of any kind?

actually the opposite of Love is pride of which God demonstrated Himself to not be prideful. As to the other things that would take a lot of time to unravel what you believe. I will say this, if you study scripture you will find the reasons for each of the things you are struggling with from God's perspective not man's.

Saying God "can't do anything more for them" implies limits on God's power. People can come up with plenty of other afterlife options that don't involve eternal torture. Heck, the Old Testament had no hell, just Sheol which was like a Greek underworld where everyone went when they died. Why would God only come up with the choices of "eternal peace in heaven" vs. "eternal torture in hell"? Why was there no mention of either in the Old Testament where it seems the afterlife was completely different?

Actually, Sheol is said to be cast into hell which is where the idea comes from....as to God's power, well, He in His wisdom gave man power over his own decisions and I have yet to find one person who wants to relinquish that right.

One more thing here, you hit the nail on the head when you talked about "People can come up with plenty of other afterlife options" see, people do come up with other options but all are made up in man's head. IOW's imitations, mirages, illusions and not truth. As to Scripture being truth, I've personally seen enough evidence to convince me but it's an individual thing which goes back to the whole idea of man having the power to decide for himself.

 

[bling]

If God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, why create it?

Hell helps some of those that do not go to hell fulfill their earthly objective.

But apparently people go to hell for just not believing. Torture for just not believing? Especially when God doesn't show himself as in the Old and New Testaments? Don't you find that cruel?

The Bible does not talk about those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel massage, other than to suggest they will be judged by God fairly/justly on what they do know.

And how do we know God is love? Hell is the opposite oflove, let alone "perfect love". God said his name was jealous and that he's wrathful, he commanded genocide, approved of slavery, and said he'd make disobedient followers eat the flesh of their sons and daughters. How is that anything resembling love of any kind?

There are a lot of specific individual questions in this paragraph which take lots of words to address. Hell shows how much God is willing to sacrifice (allowing people whom He Loves to go there) to help those still able to seek his help accept His help (charity).

Saying God "can't do anything more for them" implies limits on God's power. People can come up with plenty of other afterlife options that don't involve eternal torture. Heck, the Old Testament had no hell, just Sheol which was like a Greek underworld where everyone went when they died. Why would God only come up with the choices of "eternal peace in heaven" vs. "eternal torture in hell"? Why was there no mention of either in the Old Testament where it seems the afterlife was completely different?

I did not say what “hell” is, that is another topic heavily discussed on this board already look under controversial Christian believes.

There are things that are totally impossible to do, like: God cannot make a person who has always existed (another Jesus). In this topic: God cannot force a free will agent to make an autonomous free will choice to humbly accept His help (charity) and still be the agents free will choice.