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Featured Does Dispensationalism Require the Antichrist?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by FaithfulPilgrim, Dec 27, 2016.

  1. FaithfulPilgrim

    FaithfulPilgrim Eternally Seeking

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    The Antichrist and his indentity seems to be a recurring debate with Christianity, particularly with dispensationalism.

    Lately, I've been convinced that John's use of the word Antichrist does not refer (at least not necessarily) to a single individual, though I won't rule that out as a possibilty, but a group of people who deny the truth.

    I've always leaned towards dispensationalism (the progressive kind, anyway) because I agree with it's view of Israel and the Church, but I don't see a compelling reason to take the Millennium as a literal thousand years, as the only place that it occurs (AFAIK), is in Revelation, which is a highly symbolic book. Now I'm questioning the dispensationalist view of the Antichrist.

    So does dispensationalism require the belief that an individual will rise up, take over the world and persecute Christians?
     
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  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What difference does it make? Dispensationalism is not a requirement in the bible. It is just someone's approach to
    in examining the history of man - past, present, future - catergorizing blocks of history into separate distinct dispensations.

    I personally am not a dispensationalist. Dispensationalism is a side show, to eschatology. It is like arguing over what some theologian wrote. What counts is what is written in the bible. I would suggest just forgetting about dispensationalism. It is a waste of time talking about it.
     
  3. ver 2-10

    ver 2-10 Member

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    It's the Vatican and Church that are the antichrist. But
    Douggg has argued that it's Israel in another thread, which may be a half truth with those 12 stars, but when the dragon swipes his tail at the stars then 1/3 falls down to earth, suggesting imo that it's no longer Israel, but another country.
     
  4. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    One of the most common errors made in the study of the prophetic scriptures, is to roll several or all of the various "bad guys" discussed in the end time prophecies of the Bible into a single conglomerate. This conglomerate is normally plunked down in Rome and called "the Antichrist." This is not a product of dispensationalism, nor does it even correspond with the teachings of the classical dispensationalists of the nineteenth century.

    The scriptures indeed teach, and very plainly teach, that the Roman empire will indeed be revived, and that a single and very evil may will gain absolute control over that empire. But the scriptures also very clearly treat of no less than four other evil end time leaders. These are the end time rulers of Judah (which is now called Israel), Egypt, Russia, and a revival of ancient Assyria.

    The dispensational teachers of the nineteenth century almost all discussed aeach of these evil individuals in some detail. But somehow, most of what they taught us has now been forgotten

    So no, dispensationalism does not require a belief in an evil person that will rule the entire world and will persecute Christians. But it does require simply believing all that the scriptures explicitly say is coming on this earth.
     
  5. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    The Anti-Christ is a "catch-all" which Christendom started using to bring all the Names of this person under one umbrella, nothing more and nothing less. If you want a list of the names he is known by, most anyone can provide them, but when speaking of 10 or so names, it can get confusing, hence we use the name Anti-Christ for conformity's sake.

    1. Little Horn
    2. The Beast
    3. The Man of Sin
    4. The Man of Lawlessness
    5. The Assyrian
    6. The Foolish Shepard
    7. The son of Perdition
    8. The King of Fierce Countenance
    9. The prince who is to come
    10. Anti-Christ { A conglomerate name so to speak}

    We know 100 percent this is a MAN by reading the scriptures. Satan is bound a 1000 years, BUT....The Beast (Anti-Christ) and the False Prophet (MAN) awaits the Devil in Hell in Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them (After the 1000 Years) was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    He is of Assyrian heritage, he is born in Greece, and comes to power in the European Union or some 10 Nation Confederation which arises in the remnants of the old Roman Empire. The 10 Horns and the Little Horn ARISE out of the Fourth Beasts HEAD.....But when they are alive, Daniel tells the story how that Little Horn Beast will be killed and thrown straightaway into hell, and how the Ancient One (Jesus) will SIT or be on the Throne when he is killed. So we go from the Fourth Beast (Rome) to the End Time Period. In between there is no BEAST, because Israel has to be in the land, and a Conquered nation, or there can be no BEAST.....That is what a Beast is. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome were Beasts because they conquered/enslaved Israel. So this man will be the sole BEAST Himself, he will conquer Israel, and attempt to wipe them out, but of course Jesus shows up on The Mt. of Olives and defeats them all. AMEN

    He is alive today.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2016
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Antichrist is universally used for the person, those different stages of his career, is used mostly out of error. The person is the Antichrist for only the time that the person is in the position as the King of Israel (illegitimate)

    Well, The bible says he is from the people who destroyed the temple and city of Jerusalem. Romans. And if a person were to look at Isaiah 14, it is not until after he is cast out of the grave, i.e. brought back to life that he is referred to as the Assyrian. Isaiah 14:19-20. Isaiah 14:25 is the reference to the Assyrian. The Assyrian and King of Babylon is referring, imo, to the beast, an unclean spirit currently in the bottomless pit - Nimrod - which will be allowed to come out and possess the person.

    Egypt and Assyria were referred to as beasts? Where? Where in bible prophecy is either referred to as beasts?
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2016
  7. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Actually, the various names you have cited are used in the scriptures in regard to three distinct individuals. There are also two other end time individuals you failed to mention, which are the king of the south and Gog.

    Until the five distinct individuals mentioned in the various end time prophecies are recognized, along with the areas they each will rule, it will never be possible to even begin to understand end time prophecy.
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Two persons, when Jesus returns, the beast and the false prophet who are cast into the lake of fire.

    One person:
    the little horn
    the prince who shall come
    the Antichrist
    the revealed man of sin
    the beast
    The willful king

    Second person
    :
    the false prophet

    There is the former Ancient person in the bottomless pit as a disembodied spirit, and Satan the rebellious angel. That's four persons total. Gog the leader of Gog/Magog could be considered a fifth. Probably not your five though.
     
  9. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    As you know, I disagree with you here, imho, the Anti-Christ is never going to be accepted by Israel as their King/Messiah, and no scriptures anywhere suggest this. If so cite them please.
    Which means he will arise out of the Fourth Beast or be Euro Centric. In Daniel 7:7 they speak about the dreadful beast with iron teeth then these 2 verses stand out..........Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

    So we understand that these 10 Horns and one Little Horn arise OUT OF THE FOURTH BEASTS [HEAD], which was Rome, BUT....We also see that the 10 Horns and the Little Horn that arise out of the Fourth Beast Arise at the END TIME, because when he is defeated, he is cast into hell alive (verse 11) and the Ancient of Days (Jesus/God) will sit on the throne or be the Ruler of mankind. We see Jesus with White/Wool hair in many places and his garments are White as Snow. So the Anti-Christ and his 10 Kings Arise from the Fourth Beast (Roman Empire) and its not even debatable. Remember, we had Roman Emperors who were not born in Rome and many who were born in Gaul, two was a Carthage and Celtic mix, two were born in Syria, two were Gaulish and Greek and many more were from other places other than Rome.

    Carus - probably Gaulish and Greek (born at Narbo)

    Carinus and Numerian - probably Gaulish and Greek

    Antoninus Pius - Gaulish (born in Latium)

    Marcus Aurelius - Gaulish and Spanish

    Commodus - Gaulish and Spanish (born in Rome)

    Septimius Severus - Carthaginian and Celtic

    Caracalla - Carthaginian, Celtic, and Syrian

    Elagabalus - Syrian

    Severus Alexander - Syrian

    So being born in Greece has nothing to do with whether a person is a "Citizen of Rome" it all about who their loyalties abide with. Like I said, he will be born in Greece (Daniel chapter 8) and he will be the Ruler over the Revived Roman Empire. The ole line "he is from the people that destroyed the Temple" is irrelevant. That only means he is from the Fourth Beast. And the Little Horn arises out of the Old Vestiges of the Fourth Beast.

    No man is brought back to life, sorry but that sounds outlandish. The BEAST is a BEAST because he conquers Israel, he is a LONE BEAST at the End Times because all the other Countries/BEASTS were Empires ran by successive Kings, this Little Horn King will be a ONE MAN SHOW. The Assyrian means he will be of Turkish descent. But Daniel 8 shows him to be Born in Greece.

    You must never actually read my posts, LOL, because I have posted about this dozens of times. We have a SEVEN HEADED BEAST in Rev. 13 and 17. What is a Beast ? A Nation that has conquered, enslaved or ruled Israel, SEE, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome in Daniel 7. Now we have a Seven Headed Beast in Rev. 13 that mentions the Leopard (Greece) the Bear (Persia) and the Lion (Babylon) as being a part of this Seven Headed Beast. So we know who these 7 Heads represent, they are Empires that Conquered or Enslaved Israel throughout History. Daniel told of four of these Beasts and a FIFTH that would arise out of the Fourth in the End Times, so 5 of the Heads are known. We have to use History and common sense to find the other two. Common sense tells us if the happened after Daniel they would have be prophesied about. So the other two had to have happened before Babylon was a Kingdom. THIS IS NOT VERY HARD.......Egypt, and Assyria were the other two BEASTS/Empires that Conquered Israel.......... NOW SKIP FORWARD to Rev. 17. the Angel is explaining the 7 Kings, Five have Fallen, ONE IS, and one is YET TO COME.

    Five have Fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece) ONE IS (Rome was a BEAST/POWER when John wrote Revelation, over Israel) and one is YET TO COME (Anti-Christ and his 10 Kings/Nations).

    Its common sense, Israel has been conquered in history SIX TIMES, and will be conquered again which will make SEVEN TIMES, and we have a Sven Headed Beast !!
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I find this fascinating right here.

    Can you think of any other term in scripture that has clear, unequivocal, explicit teaching on what it "is", that Christendom has removed entirely from that teaching and applied a meaning nowhere taught to be applied to it in scripture, and even built an entire theological industry upon the misapplication?

    I can't think of any other examples of this.
     
  11. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    We could all this man "Concrete" the NAME is not important as long as we know who we are referring to. Names and meanings change continually over time. Look at the word "GAY" it means happy, in today's lexicon, it is seen as someone who is a homosexual by most people under 40.

    He is the Anti-Christ, because everything he stands for is ANTI JESUS CHRIST.
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So why not pick "concrete"? Why not pick a name that does not ALREADY HAVE AN EXPLICIT BIBLICAL DEFINITION?

    Why pick a term with an apostolic, established BIBLICAL definition, then completely toss out that definition as nonsense, and apply a totally different definition to it that is NOT taught in scripture?

    Again, I know of no other examples of this.

    However, Scriptural, Apostolic definitions of Biblical terms do not "change over time".
    Human arrogance is the only thing responsible for that.
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    My point to you is that you are rationalizing. The bible itself does not say that Egypt nor Assyria are beasts. Do you not see the difference? You are rationalizing they are beasts - but the bible does not call them beasts.
     
  14. victorinus

    victorinus catholic

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    agree
     
  15. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Well the Beast is ANTI-CHRISTIAN so it changes no meaning at all. He stands against everything Jesus stands for. In other words the BEAST is Anti-Jesus/Christ, the Little Horn is Anti-Christ/Jesus, the Man of Sin is Anti-Christ/Jesus etc. etc. It changes no meaning at all.

    I choose to accentuate the positive, I understand where he is born, where he comes to power, that he is alive today, and that he will be destroyed by Jesus in the end. Words are not going to bother me, I just learn and move on.
     
  16. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    I am solving the riddle that is Revelation, by studying, and being open to the Holy Spirit. God placed the book of Revelation in "CODE FORM" on purpose, he even told Daniel that much of his book wouldn't be understood until the End Times. We have the incredible gift of looking at everything in hindsight. We can see things they had no clue about. Like Israel being reborn, and most of the U.N. hating Israel, we can get on a computer and study various things in a moments notice, and bring all of these things together. We can read centuries of different peoples opinions and place them all in context to what we now know.

    We have to figure out the riddle of the Woman (Israel) in Rev. chapter 12, likewise we have to figure out the Seven Headed Beast by using all the clues we have in the same manner. I mean once you finally get it, its like, that was simple !! I mean, the Beasts in Daniel were Beasts because they Conquered Israel, the Beast in Rev. 13 has Seven Heads and the BEASTS of Daniel are incorporated into this Beast with Seven Heads so we just need to LISTEN to the Angel in Rev. 17 when he says he will EXPLAIN the Mystery of the Woman and the Beast. There was Seven Kings, 5 have fallen etc. etc.

    The Angel is explaining the SEVEN HEADED BEAST, by Using SEVEN KINGS....If 5 have Fallen, and ONE IS (Rome) then 5 had to have Fallen before Rome came to power. Then looking back, we can see who the 5 were, they can ONLY BE....Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece.

    It is a DEEP RIDDLE, but once we get it, it is rather easy to look back and say, wow, that makes perfect sense I should have got that long ago....EXCEPT The Holy Spirit reveals all things in ITS PROPER TIME.
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What i am criticizing your rationale for is that the babylonian empire, the medo-persian empire, the greek empire, the un-named fourth beast empire - were in the text of the bible in Daniel 7 described as beasts - i.e. lion,bear, leopard, un-named.

    But the Egypt and Assyrian empires were not described as any beasts in the bible.

    You are electing to call the Egypt and Assyrian empires as beasts in the way you are interpreting Revelation 17,12, 13 the heads on the beast - as the heads being beasts themselves.... instead of kings as what is in the text of Revelation 17.

    Furthermore, the three beasts in Daniel 7 - the bear, the lion, the leopard - are not heads on the beast in Revelation 13 - but parts of the beast's body. However in your rationale, you are electing to call 3 of the heads, as being a bear, leopard, lion empires, as well.

    Don't you see how conflicting that is? Don't you think in the text of Revelation it would had said it had 7 heads - a head of a bear, a lion, a leopard. You got it all mixed up. The heads are 7 kings - the heads are kings because they have crowns in Revelation 12.
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Well ok, but antichrist is a SPECIFIC heresy that came from within the Church and effected many. Nowhere in John's teaching does He apply the term to a single end time global despot.

    I prefer to stick to the infallible, apostolic, biblical definition of the term, and reject your fallible man made definition that has no root in any scripture.

    Interesting.
    Setting aside your man made, scripture rejecting definition for Anti-Christ for a moment,
    Can you show me the scripture that teaches these three individuals are the same person?

    St John claimed antichrist was alive in the first century, St Paul claimed the Man of Sin was alive in the first century.

    Good thing you've come along to show how and why they could have been so wrong about that.
    That is positive!

    I would hate to have to be forced to rely on the scriptural, apostolic testimony alone when its so clear to me now that you know so much more about the topic than they did.
     
  19. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't take much thought to get this, imho. Why were they called Beasts in Daniel ? Because they Conquered/Ruled Israel, that is the "COMMON THREAD" in all four of the Beasts, and the fourth was dreadful with Iron teeth. The woman in Rev. 17 is riding A BEAST...Its called a BEAST. I just do not get why you can not see that this is a Beast, and we understand the BEASTS all Conquer Israel. It has 7 Heads. In verse #7 it says I will explain the Woman and the BEAST then it starts talking about the SEVEN KINGS.....How can you not see the Kings are the Beasts Heads ? Seven Mountains are SEVEN RULERS that she sits on. And she was SITTING on a BEAST with SEVEN HEADS.

    God transferred the imagery from BEAST HEADS to KINGS because the Last King will be the Beast Himself not an Empire so to speak. Then to give us a clue, a very SIMPLE CLUE, imho, John stated there were FIVE KINGS who had fallen and ONE IS (Rome) and one is YET TO COME (Anti-Christ) we know that Rome was the one who IS Ruling at the time, there's is just no question about that, and we know the Anti-Christ will be the LAST BEAST (Head)....The FIVE BEFORE THEM are just not that hard to figure out. There is only five Countries who conquered Israel in the Bible before Rome. Daniel lived after Egypt and Assyria conquered Israel, as did Nebuchadnezzar, it was not important to Nebuchadnezzar what happened between Israel and Egypt, hence his dreams did not have them in it. They STILL CONQUERED/ENSLAVED Israel, hence they were BEASTS.

    The text in Revelation was meant to be vague. The THREE BEASTS being a Part of the Seven Headed Beast is a dead giveaway, especially since the SEVEN KINGS are spoken of in Rev. 17 as her SITTING ON THEM, which means they represent the SEVEN HEADED BEASTS HEADS that she also SIT ON.
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The woman rides a beast singular. It is not beasts (plural) heads. It is 7 heads on the beast (singular)
     
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