Does design demand a designer?

I think anyone with the correct circuitry in their brain will conclude that design obviously demands a designer. However it is emphasized in evolutionary thinking that the look of design in biology requires no designer. Materialistic evolutionists have thus convinced themselves that design is but an illusion – theistic evolutionists who throw God into the equation believe no differently if they insist that the evolutionary process is how He created.

I have been accused of being an imbecile simply because I believe that God was the creator (engineer) of the many complex biological systems we see today almost instantaneously and not through small increments as by the evolutionary process. My accusers are convinced that only an uneducated person would believe thus – for they say that an eye says nothing about a designer who understood something about the physics of sight, or the designer of an ear knew anything about the physics of sound. And worst of all, that the brain was the result of unguided processes and says nothing about a designer who knew anything about computer circuitry!

They are convinced you know that only prideful fools ignore the plethora of “assumed” evidence for evolution. I am not annoyed though that they feel this way about creationists such as myself because they have their reasons for believing what they do just as I in what I do. I am aware of the many claims made for evolution but it is not ignorance of this evidence but my faith in God that compels me to reject the evolutionary process.

My point is that as true followers of Christ we know that the whole of this creation was created in a short span of time and not over eons. We must understand how Christians have gotten away from the position that God created in days and not in long periods of time and still consider themselves to be believers. It is not really difficult to understand intellectually why believers in Christ could consistently accept evolution however there is no Spiritual reason for Jesus himself affirmed the historical account of the creation of man and woman in Genesis 1 and 2 in Matthew 19:3–6.

What some Christians do not realize is that evolution and the Bible do not mix and those who do so are as in this quote of an associate professor in the School of Science and Technology Studies at the University of New South Wales, Australia states:

“People seem to think that Christianity and evolution do or can go together. But I suggest this is only possible for the intellectually schizophrenic. Biological theory does not require or allow any sort of divine guidance for the evolutionary process.” David Oldroyd, The Weekend Review, March 20*21, 1993, p.5.

The “intellectually schizophrenic” referred to is perhaps in that by adding only God when convenient and not as the sole designer and sustainer of all of creation how do we know that there is a God who only stands outside and guides the evolutionary process if that were the case? The only way you would know that such a being exists is through what has been revealed in the Scriptures.

By accepting that God created using the evolutionary process, believers reject the revelation about how God created. Since what God has done has been written, it is not God that they believe but their own concoctions of what He may have done. By doing this they only become futile in their rationale of the creative capabilities and purpose of God for they stand not on His revelation but man’s fallible theories. For in the evolutionary process God plays an invisible role if any role at all and His omniscient and omnipotent design capabilities are not revealed in His creation in any sense.

The scriptures clearly state that the creative capabilities of God are clearly shown in His creation as stated in Romans 1:20:

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

So we are without ‘excuse’ not in believing that God created as He has revealed to us in the Scriptures if we believe anything else.

Lucaspa : When you say "designer", you mean an intelligent entity. However, what overthrew the Argument from Design was the discovery of an algorithmic process -- natural selection -- that yields design.

Yes, biological organisms are designed -- designed by natural selection.

That’s nonsense. Natural selection designs nothing, it uses only what is already present. The idea that design can arise by chance and from matter alone without guidance is preposterous and very much a fairytale.

What theistic evolutionists do is say that natural selection is the secondary cause by which God designed. God doesn't reach out with His hand and hold the planets in orbit directly. Instead, He uses gravity as His secondary cause. Likewise, theistic evolutionists say that God uses natural selection as His secondary cause to get design. Darwin said this explicitly in Origin:

Theistic implies “God”. Evolution requires not God, so theistic evolution is an oxymoron. So where is the Creator God in evolution – no where, so why continue to insist that God used evolution when evolution requires not God, and the natural sciences know nothing of evolution?

As you say, you are saying that God directly manufactured the entities you mention. Darwin was saying that God did not directly manufacture.

And I quote, “ In the beginning God created,” where resides the word evolve? Darwin was out to remove God conveniently from the natural sciences just as you are doing – which comes of no surprise to me.

The theological problem with having this position of direct manufacture is that it puts God in a very bad light. You concentrate only on the "good" designs but ignore the bad ones. This is illustrated by a joke:

It seems your resort of humanistic reasoning and evolutionary nonsense have done nothing more than equate God to being nothing more than an ogre god and then turn around and say that it is creationists who are doing so? Be aware brother that you do so at your own risk. The joke however is on you, for I hear Satan laughing His behind off once more. But then I suppose you are immune to His lies as you made so clear to me since after all it can’t be a lie since many Christians believe in it – and yet so do the atheists.

Do you envision God like the civil engineer? But if you declare that God directly manufactured the human body, then you are stuck with that position. It was the bad designs that convinced Christians to give up the Argument from Design and accept evolution. Evolution got God off of a really bad hook that intelligent design put Him on.

Not the slightest bit. He is much more than a mere engineer, He is God the Creator. Any comparison of God to human capabilities will always fail, as any analogy pales in comparison to the omniscient creative capabilities of the almighty Creator. It wasn’t that they made a wise choice, but they have been won over by the lies of Satan, baited and hooked as you can say. Instead of fighting evolution to the bitter end they have instead surrendered and become themselves indistinguishable in their beliefs from the enemy.

This is the issue. ARE you "true followers of Christ"? How can you ignore God's Creation so thoroughly and claim to be following God?

The issue is such that it is beyond your understanding brother, for you continue to struggle in your rationale of your brand of faith using merely your own erroneous interpretations of God for you have not submitted yourself to Him in totality. You are the one claiming to understand how God created, it is not me for I accept what He says on faith for I see the word “create”, and it means create – to bring from nothing, whereas you see the word “create” and say evolved on its own. Now who is ignoring God? I see His creation and I say how wonderful our Creator, while you say how wonderful His creation. Now who are you really worshipping?

It's bad enough to misrepresent science, but when you misrepresent scripture ... Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have you not read that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female". This is not affirming the historical account of creation in Genesis 1 (forgetting, of course, the contradiction with Genesis 2) but talks about the theological message of Genesis 1. Is Jesus discussing history in these verses? NO! He is discussing whether "it is lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause". Jesus is using Genesis 1 as it was intended: as a theological document.

Who is better at misrepresenting science then evolutionists. They are highly adept at distorting true science to discredit God as creator for they mention nothing of Him. Lo and behold, you read once more your Bible in the light of modern ideologies and not in the light of the Holy Spirit. I’ve said so often and thus once more Satan knows very well how to destroy Christianity in this modern day as he has done in the past, and you have failed to see this again – and that is to attack the foundations as scripture tells us:

If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? Psalm 11:3

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But then you deny Satan’s presence so what does it matter – that is what is expected from those who compromise the truth of God for they are you know but his mere puppet. For the past 200 years, there has been an ongoing and relentless attack on the first eleven chapters of Genesis, why? Because it is history from the perspective of God which encompasses geology, biology, astronomy, anthropology, and the universe which is all foundational to the whole of Christianity and to all Christian doctrine. And if you believe it not be than you are simply fooling yourself and the truth of God resides not in you.

And oh yes another misuse of scripture – only a moral story - it is evident your theological reasoning are only that – rants devoid of spirituality.

Now, if you go down to Matthew 19:7-8 and you find Jesus explicitly saying that the Torah is NOT literal and that it has errors. That MOSES was the author, not God, and Moses got it wrong at times.

Ah yes, the erroneous error of the Matthew verse. I was wondering when you were going to bring that up. If you think so then you have little understanding of scripture, for as usual you continue to read your Bible as a book of morale tales and nothing more. Of course if you were to read your Bible correctly it says nothing of biblical errors as the law which Jesus refers to is found in Deut 24:1-4.

Jesus said thus on the basis that in Moses’ time and His, marriage often fell short of God’s intentions. God instituted marriage to be for life, and yet men were doing what was in their nature – rebellion of God’s purpose and so Moses gave such laws only because of their hardened hearts. Because human nature made divorce inevitable, Moses simply put into place laws which helped its victims. Such laws were to provide protection for the vulnerability of the women of their time who were left to live alone. Moses’ laws made men think twice about divorcing their wives by making them write a formal letter of dismissal. Jesus reference to it being not so from the beginning follow in the divine purpose of God from the beginning when he made them male and female - notice there is no indication of evolve here.

And yet these words of Jesus explain best:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mt 5:17

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And so there is no relevance to the Torah being with errors as you claim, only the historicity of the time as it plainly says.

Oh, evolution ALLOWS divine guidance. In fact, I can quote two of the most ardent atheists alive -- Dawkins and Dennett -- acknowledging two different ways that evolution can have divine guidance and not get "caught" by science.

And yet I am not aware that they have recently converted to Christianity. As you can invoke the supernatural only when convenient and when at wits end for they know that they are paddling up the river of impossibility as life from no life is and will never be possible – and yet it only confirms what scripture says when human reasoning reaches a dead end and becomes futile – men will acknowledge God sooner or later, whether it be while they are living or after their death they will acknowledge Him:

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Romans 14:11

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Misrepresentation of evolution. Evolution (and science) acknowledge the possibility of God has sustainer of all creation. As noted above, Darwin thought God was the designer, but the question is HOW God designed. Evolution simply says that the position that God separately manufactured each and every species is wrong. So it's not God that is in trouble, but the theory of creationists (mortal and fallible humans).

Evolution is and will always be a misrepresentation of our almighty God. Is it not the theory of evolution that changes more than any theory in science? Who then needs to worry of what will be falsified? Evolution says creationism is wrong because there is no role for God in evolution, it is man’s rebellion from acknowledging God as the almighty creator. So which logic is more futile in matters of faith, believing in what the Word of God says or man’s reconciliation of what man thinks is right to fit with what the scripture does not say?

Not at all. All that is rejected is ONE INTERPRETATION of revelation. But interpretations are made by humans. So we are not rejecting revelation, but simply the the erroneous intepretation of creationists. We do, of course, have a real problem with fallible humans who claim that their interpretation is the same as God.

Covering your eyes to the truth of God will not make it go away, neither does interpreting scripture apart from what it does not say.

God wrote TWO BOOKS. What God wrote in Creation came directly from God. The Bible teaches theology. Creation teaches us how God created.

I am only aware of one book the other is your concoction.

One tragedy of creationism is that, in their vain attempt to make Gensis 1 history, creationism ignores all the theological messages of the two creation stories. IOW, creationism ignores the message God intended in Genesis.

A very sad note indeed that Christians continue to say I am a believer, when they believe not in what God says by the authority of His word. You fail to realize once more that the Bible is the inspired word of God, while nature has been cursed by God, so which are you going to believe, His inspired Word or something that is cursed?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16

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Where in the verse does it say creation?

No one is denying that God created. What is at issue is HOW God created. God's Creation clearly shows that God created by evolution.

And yet you say God did not create, He evolved, so you at the least are in denial of His godhood as He has revealed to us and thus not far from denying Him.

Double post. Please ignore.