Does communion have a role in salvation?

Soyeong

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Where does Jesus say "This is my body... but only metaphorically"?

John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

Is Jesus literally a door?

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.

Is Jesus literally a vine? Is he a vine door?
 
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Albion

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Not sure if I'd go that far--

If we are not acting in faith and drawing close to God when we have communion, then we are missing the whole point are just eating bread and drinking wine/grape juice.
We generally say that to commune in an unworthy manner brings a judgment upon the communicant, but not that the elements (body and blood) are rendered merely bread and wine/juice for that person while they nevertheless retain the Real Presence for the person communing next in line.
 
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Albion

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Is Jesus literally a door?

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.

Is Jesus literally a vine? Is he a vine door?

That approach doesn't really resolve the matter one way or the other, though.
 
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FireDragon76

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John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

Words have meaning. He definitely did not say "I am like a door".
 
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Soyeong

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Words have meaning. He definitely did not say "I am like a door".

Indeed, words have meaning, which is often a symbolic meaning. So when we eat his body, we are eating literally eating an an alpha, an omega, a vine, a door, and the light source of the world? When you take idioms literally, you really end up in a pickle.
 
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Albion

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Indeed, words have meaning, which is often a symbolic meaning. So when we eat his body, we are eating literally eating an an alpha, an omega, a vine, a door, and the light source of the world? When you take idioms literally, you really end up in a pickle.
That still doesn't make the words Jesus spoke at the Last Supper be purely symbolic as was claimed.
 
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Soyeong

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That still doesn't make the words Jesus spoke at the Last Supper be purely symbolic as was claimed.

But he didn't specify that he was speaking only metaphorically in those other situations, so while I grant that it is possible that he could have been speaking literally, I don't see a good reason to insist that he was. There are many other cases where the Bible does not use the word "like" when it is speaking metaphorically, so its absence does not imply that he was speaking literally. He straightforwardly was speaking metaphorically, especially when considering that the Passover meal is full symbolism that teaches about him.
 
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Albion

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But he didn't specify that he was speaking only metaphorically in those other situations, so while I grant that it is possible that he could have been speaking literally, I don't see a good reason to insist that he was. There are many other cases where the Bible does not use the word "like" when it is speaking metaphorically, so its absence does not imply that he was speaking literally. He straightforwardly was speaking metaphorically, especially when considering that the Passover meal is full symbolism that teaches about him.
Yes, I follow your thinking. I was saying only that the two (?) views remain and are irreconcilable. You are convinced one way; other people are convinced the opposite way.

But...we cannot conclude that the sacrament is only symbolic simply because the part of Jesus' words that seems to support that conclusion is cited. The other part in which Jesus appears to be speaking in a different sense must be considered also.

And there are other verses in which people are saying that it's body, flesh, blood, etc., never to my recollection anything like "It's symbolic only."
1 Cor. 10:16, for example.
 
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Tangible

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One common attempt to refute the Real Presence in the Sacrament of the Altar goes something like, “If Jesus is the bread and wine, he must also be the door, the vine, and light.”

First of all, Jesus never said “I am this bread” and “I am this wine” but “This is my body” and “This is my blood.” But, in John 6:51 Jesus did in fact say, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven,” so let's continue in this line of reasoning.

Let's look at Jesus' words.



Matthew 26:26-28 ESV

26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the [new] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Mark 14:22-24 ESV

22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” 23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, “This is my blood of the [new] covenant, which is poured out for many.”

Luke 22:17-20 ESV

17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. 18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 ESV

23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for [or broken for] you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.



So in these passages, the common element is this: “This is my body” and “This (cup) is - my blood of the (new) covenant.”

We understand perfectly well from the context that the antecedent of the first demonstrative “this” is the bread that Jesus broke, and the antecedent of the second demonstrative “this” is the wine in the cup Jesus was holding (took the cup) and may have poured out from a flask or jar.

Then these are the words at the center of the debate: “This is my body” and “This is my blood.”

The position of those who put forward this argument is that the words “This is” are figures of speech only, and to take them literally would necessitate understanding Jesus' “I am” statements in an equally literal fashion.



John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

John 10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep."

John 10:9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture."

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

John 10:36 "do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, "You are blaspheming", because I said, "I am the Son of God"?

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

John 15:1 ”I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser."

John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing."

There is a problem with the logic of that argument. The portions of the statements that are to be understood non-literally are not the subject and verb “I am” but the objects “door,” “light,” and “vine.”

We can demonstrate this by the fact that when Jesus made these statements he was claiming to be something, not to represent or be a symbol of something. He was not claiming to represent the Light of the World, but to be the Light of the World. He was not claiming to symbolize the True Vine, but to be the True Vine.

So, if we assume for a moment that your position is correct, then we must also assume that the non-literal portion of the statement “This is my body” is not the word “is” but the word “body.”

So if we represent this graphically, we have:

Literal > Non-Literal
I am >>> the door
I am >>> the vine
I am >>> the light
This is >> my body
This is >> my blood

Thus, if the words “body” and “blood” are non-literal, as are “door,” “light,” and “vine” then what are we to understand “body” and “blood” as actually referring to?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Not sure if I'd go that far--


We generally say that to commune in an unworthy manner brings a judgment upon the communicant, but not that the elements (body and blood) are rendered merely bread and wine/juice for that person while they nevertheless retain the Real Presence for the person communing next in line.
No, this is receptionism; where the worthiness of the recipient affects the efficacy and therefore the validity of the sacrament. There is no evidence in either the Scriptures or the ECFs to lead us to that assumption. The Eucharist is not what it is because of us; it is what it is despite us. We have no part in the efficacy or the real presence, it is all about what God does and provides for us.

Therefore, one who receives in an unworthy manner risks not only spiritual harm, but as Scripture tells us may be physical harm and even death (spiritual and physical).

Receptionism takes some of the credit for God's grace away from God and makes us cooperators in our salvation. Wrong.
 
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HatGuy

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Communion is given explicitly to believers for the forgiveness of sins and for the building up of our faith in Christ. It is part of the sanctification working in us by God, filling us with Christ, feeding and giving life to the new man in Christ. Those who are saved will hunger and thirst for the righteousness of Christ given in the Supper, and those who do not may find themselves drifting away from what is theirs in Christ.

In view of John 6, I would say that Our Lord is not prescribing a new law to be followed in order to be saved, but instead describing what those who are being saved will be focused on - participation in the body of Christ, participation in the life and death of Christ, continually receiving Christ into our lives and our bodies for the forgiveness of all of our sins.
Is there some reading I can do for this? I'm particularly interested in understanding how or why communion is part of sanctification. I'm also particularly interested in seeing how John 6 and other scriptures should be read in such a literal way.

Are you able to help perhaps?
 
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Albion

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Is there some reading I can do for this? I'm particularly interested in understanding how or why communion is part of sanctification. I'm also particularly interested in seeing how John 6 and other scriptures should be read in such a literal way.

Are you able to help perhaps?

I don't have a reading to recommend, but Communion is important because it is a sacrament. That said, what's so important about a sacrament? It is believed, for good scriptural reasons, that a sacrament (seven of them for Catholics, two for most other churches) forgives sins (or assures the person of the remission of his sins), and imparts Grace. All of that speaks for itself.

So how do we recognize a sacrament? in addition to the above characteristics, a sacrament must have been ordained by Christ himself, having done so using physical elements as the vehicle for the spiritual benefits mentioned. (There are reasons for that, but that's another discussion.)

Whether or not John 6 is speaking of Communion is an open question.
 
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HatGuy

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I don't have a reading to recommend, but Communion is important because it is a sacrament. That said, what's so important about a sacrament? It is believed, for good scriptural reasons, that a sacrament (seven of them for Catholics, two for most other churches) forgives sins (or assures the person of the remission of his sins), and imparts Grace. All of that speaks for itself.

So how do we recognize a sacrament? in addition to the above characteristics, a sacrament must have been ordained by Christ himself, having done so using physical elements as the vehicle for the spiritual benefits mentioned. (There are reasons for that, but that's another discussion.)

Whether or not John 6 is speaking of Communion is an open question.
Are you able to show scripturally where the sacrament of communion imparts grace?

Thanks!
 
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JoeP222w

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Communion is a remembrance of the Savior Jesus Christ, an ordinance instituted by Jesus Christ.

Communion does not grant extra grace, nor does it have any supernatural effect. In other words, participating in the Lord's Supper is not a requirement for salvation (as evidenced by the thief on the cross whom Jesus saved).
 
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HatGuy

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Communion is a remembrance of the Savior Jesus Christ, an ordinance instituted by Jesus Christ.

Communion does not grant extra grace, nor does it have any supernatural effect. In other words, participating in the Lord's Supper is not a requirement for salvation (as evidenced by the thief on the cross whom Jesus saved).
I'm not sure about all of this.

When people speak of it giving "extra grace", they generally don't mean grace for justification (salvation) but sanctification (growth in holiness).

Obviously, Catholics and EO have a different language and might go that far. But Protestants wouldn't

I'm interested in seeing how it provides growth in holiness, where that is in scripture, and why. John 6 is in the context of abiding in Christ, and is clearly a picture of the Lord's Supper. I doubt it is unrelated.
 
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HighCherub

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Catholics turned the tradition of Communion into a supernatural rite - it was one of many things they did to have leverage- if you were excommunicated for whatever reason or unbaptized, you couldn't participate because Jesus had better things to do than mingle with sinners.

:doh:
 
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Albion

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I'm not sure about all of this.

When people speak of it giving "extra grace", they generally don't mean grace for justification (salvation) but sanctification (growth in holiness).

Obviously, Catholics and EO have a different language and might go that far. But Protestants wouldn't

I'm interested in seeing how it provides growth in holiness, where that is in scripture, and why. John 6 is in the context of abiding in Christ, and is clearly a picture of the Lord's Supper. I doubt it is unrelated.
Hi. My view is essentially described as you did above with regard to Grace. As for the request you made earlier for proof texts, all the relevant verses imply this but are not point blank. That's with the exception of John 6 and, as I said before, I personally doubt that it refers to the sacrament. All Roman Catholic sources I checked, however, seem to make it be their 'proof' that the Lord's Supper (or Mass itself) imparts Grace.
 
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JoeP222w

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I'm not sure about all of this.

When people speak of it giving "extra grace", they generally don't mean grace for justification (salvation) but sanctification (growth in holiness).

Obviously, Catholics and EO have a different language and might go that far. But Protestants wouldn't

I'm interested in seeing how it provides growth in holiness, where that is in scripture, and why. John 6 is in the context of abiding in Christ, and is clearly a picture of the Lord's Supper. I doubt it is unrelated.

At the moment of conversion, the believer is given the full measure of grace. God does not give more grace throughout their life after becoming a believer, because he or she has already been given the full measure. Believers, as they are sanctified, become who they already are in Christ. If they we given additional grace after conversion, then how does one know if they have enough grace? God grace is sufficient and does not leave the believer in fear that they do not have enough grace.
 
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At the moment of conversion, the believer is given the full measure of grace. God does not give more grace throughout their life after becoming a believer, because he or she has already been given the full measure. Believers, as they are sanctified, become who they already are in Christ. If they we given additional grace after conversion, then how does one know if they have enough grace? God grace is sufficient and does not leave the believer in fear that they do not have enough grace.
Ok, but do you not grow in holiness?

And if so, how?
 
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