Does Christianity only work for people who can experience regret?

[Hestha]

Psychologically speaking, I have read and heard that sociopaths can't feel remorse or regret for the bad things they have done. If sociopaths don't feel any regret or remorse, how does this work with Christianity which require the sinner to repent and that means to change his sinful ways? How can one change if one does not know how to feel? How can one change if one does not recognize right and wrong? What happens if a person - a young child - has an underdeveloped moral conscience? Do these types of people still have to repent to God, and how would they do so when they do not feel any sorrow or regret?

If I do something wrong and I do not know that it is wrong before someone tells me that it is wrong and I recognize that it is wrong because it is socially unacceptable (that is moral development), then do I listen to what that person regards as "wrong" or what I feel is "right"? How do I know what is right, if I do not experience any regret or sorrow? Is it possible that you KNOW is wrong or unethical but you do it anyway for the sake of someone you love? I am thinking about the story of Rapunzel and how Rapunzel's parents steal the rapunzel plant from the witch. They obviously know that stealing is bad, and when they get caught red-handed by the witch, they have to pay the price by sending their daughter to live in a tower guarded by the witch. However, the father steals the plant in the first place, because his wife somehow has a craving for the rapunzel plant, as the story goes. Then again, the wife may be sinned, as well, because if her craving indicates that she cannot wait. If she suppresses her desire to eat the rapunzel the plant, then she would have prevented her husband from getting in trouble with the witch, wouldn't she? But anyway, I am thinking of doing bad things or making mistakes with good intentions.

Also, if you do feel sorry and repent, how can that make you feel any better? You will still have memories of the times when you have done wrong against others, and you just want to erase those memories from your brain and not look back at them.

 

[renewed21]

good question Hestha

 

[1watchman]

I believe a sociopath has long since given him/her self over to satanic ways, so is bound to serve the fabrications and self-serving ways which precludes God, or the good of mankind (see Rom. 1:28-32).

 

[Aravis85]

I don't know. This is an incredibly difficult problem, because its resolution ultimately turns on what the doctors tell us about the experiences of sociopaths and psychopaths and that information is full of uncertainty about (1) what, exactly, it is that such people are lacking and (2) what causes the lack.

On the first point, if they lack certain emotions (regret, guilt etc), but have the intellectual capacity to understand right and wrong and make value judgments about how they act, it seems to me that they are clearly capable of repentance and of answering God's call. That doesn't have to be a process of tearful emotion, though it can be for those who have been labouring under a burden of guilt and unhappiness because of their sin. It is possible to perfectly dryly recognise that your life lacks the qualities that make a human life flourish and to turn to God for His help.

But if, as seems agreed, psychopaths and sociopaths also lack the capacity for empathy with others, then they seem to be lacking one of the basic intellectual faculties necessary to apply standards of right and wrong or indeed to act lovingly (which, again, doesn't demand a lot of emotion but does demand an intelligent understanding of the other, which has to include empathy). I don't know how such a person can repent, unless their capacity for empathy can be restored. So it all turns on what causes a person to lack this faculty, and whether it is curable or not.

I believe there is supposed to be some genetic basis for psychopathy but social and environmental factors play a role in the development of both conditions. It follows that one cause of this gap is itself the inheritance of sin - both the sins of those who may have created an atmosphere of neglect and violence around the person who grew up to become a sociopath, as well as their own acts and failures. If that's true, it must be possible for God to rescue such people though the precise process is very obscure to me - it's a frightening image of how literally true it is that the wages of sin are death.

 

[ebia]

Psychologically speaking, I have read and heard that sociopaths can't feel remorse or regret for the bad things they have done. If sociopaths don't feel any regret or remorse, how does this work with Christianity which require the sinner to repent and that means to change his sinful ways? How can one change if one does not know how to feel? How can one change if one does not recognize right and wrong? What happens if a person - a young child - has an underdeveloped moral conscience? Do these types of people still have to repent to God, and how would they do so when they do not feel any sorrow or regret?

If I do something wrong and I do not know that it is wrong before someone tells me that it is wrong and I recognize that it is wrong because it is socially unacceptable (that is moral development), then do I listen to what that person regards as "wrong" or what I feel is "right"? How do I know what is right, if I do not experience any regret or sorrow? Is it possible that you KNOW is wrong or unethical but you do it anyway for the sake of someone you love? I am thinking about the story of Rapunzel and how Rapunzel's parents steal the rapunzel plant from the witch. They obviously know that stealing is bad, and when they get caught red-handed by the witch, they have to pay the price by sending their daughter to live in a tower guarded by the witch. However, the father steals the plant in the first place, because his wife somehow has a craving for the rapunzel plant, as the story goes. Then again, the wife may be sinned, as well, because if her craving indicates that she cannot wait. If she suppresses her desire to eat the rapunzel the plant, then she would have prevented her husband from getting in trouble with the witch, wouldn't she? But anyway, I am thinking of doing bad things or making mistakes with good intentions.

Also, if you do feel sorry and repent, how can that make you feel any better? You will still have memories of the times when you have done wrong against others, and you just want to erase those memories from your brain and not look back at them.

Repentance isn't actually a feeling like regret, but a change in behaviour. Giving up your agenda and taking up Jesus' way of doing things.

 

[Hestha]

Repentance isn't actually a feeling like regret, but a change in behaviour. Giving up your agenda and taking up Jesus' way of doing things.

OK. So, if your initial agenda is to "put yourself on the throne so people can worship you instead of God" and you actually accomplish this by burning down all the churches and becoming a popular star, an idol, for your fellow humans, and you suddenly realize that you have been misbehaving in front of God by acting like one and trying to dethrone him so you change your agenda of defeating God to pursue an agenda of taking up Jesus' way of doing things, then does that mean you have repented? What about the other people who are still worshiping you? Are you going to try to direct their worship of you to God above by making Christian-oriented songs with an evangelistic theme to them?

 

[Aravis85]

OK. So, if your initial agenda is to "put yourself on the throne so people can worship you instead of God" and you actually accomplish this by burning down all the churches and becoming a popular star, an idol, for your fellow humans, and you suddenly realize that you have been misbehaving in front of God by acting like one and trying to dethrone him so you change your agenda of defeating God to pursue an agenda of taking up Jesus' way of doing things, then does that mean you have repented? What about the other people who are still worshiping you? Are you going to try to direct their worship of you to God above by making Christian-oriented songs with an evangelistic theme to them?

An unlikely situation for any person to find themselves in but, sure, I would guess the fruit of repentance in such a case would, at minimum, require telling the truth to people to whom you have lied and apologising for misleading them. I think it might be a bit impertinent to then evangelise them - since you would just have informed them of how untrustworthy you have been in the past and it's unreasonable to expect them to believe you about Christ when you have talked so much nonsense about yourself - but I guess there might be circumstances in which you ought to turn to evangelism. But the question you're asking is pretty far divorced from the reality of any ordinary person's life - even any ordinary sociopath.

The toughest real-life examples of the 'qualifying for repentance' problem I know of involve people like Myra Hindley and Ted Bundy, who both claimed to have repented, and become Christians. It's difficult to know whether to believe them, when there were obvious prudential reasons for faking it in both cases (in Hindley's case, for the sake of release and in Bundy's case for the sake of attention). I would say, tentatively, that the insensitive attitude of both towards the families of their victims would suggest that they hadn't entirely turned their lives over to God and hadn't fully repented, but I guess the deeper problem is that we don't want to believe in their capacity for repentance anyway. Some part of the human mind desires vengeance, not mercy, and would regret the extension of God's saving love to people who had done such terrible things. I think that part of the mind is a product of the fallen creation, to be put to death in Christ, but it's hard work to kill it off entirely in this life. I suspect this instinct may be where the desire to see sinners express passionate guilt and regret comes from - an 'eye for an eye' model of justice that demands that those who have inflicted suffering also demonstrate that they are experiencing it. But the fruit of repentance, in its Christian sense, isn't (necessarily) suffering, it's change.

 

[ebia]

OK. So, if your initial agenda is to "put yourself on the throne so people can worship you instead of God" and you actually accomplish this by burning down all the churches and becoming a popular star, an idol, for your fellow humans, and you suddenly realize that you have been misbehaving in front of God by acting like one and trying to dethrone him so you change your agenda of defeating God to pursue an agenda of taking up Jesus' way of doing things, then does that mean you have repented?

Yes

What about the other people who are still worshiping you?

Obviously if you've taken up Jesus' agenda you'd be trying to redirect them somehow.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Psychologically speaking, I have read and heard that sociopaths can't feel remorse or regret for the bad things they have done. If sociopaths don't feel any regret or remorse, how does this work with Christianity which require the sinner to repent and that means to change his sinful ways? How can one change if one does not know how to feel? How can one change if one does not recognize right and wrong? What happens if a person - a young child - has an underdeveloped moral conscience? Do these types of people still have to repent to God, and how would they do so when they do not feel any sorrow or regret?

If I do something wrong and I do not know that it is wrong before someone tells me that it is wrong and I recognize that it is wrong because it is socially unacceptable (that is moral development), then do I listen to what that person regards as "wrong" or what I feel is "right"? How do I know what is right, if I do not experience any regret or sorrow? Is it possible that you KNOW is wrong or unethical but you do it anyway for the sake of someone you love? I am thinking about the story of Rapunzel and how Rapunzel's parents steal the rapunzel plant from the witch. They obviously know that stealing is bad, and when they get caught red-handed by the witch, they have to pay the price by sending their daughter to live in a tower guarded by the witch. However, the father steals the plant in the first place, because his wife somehow has a craving for the rapunzel plant, as the story goes. Then again, the wife may be sinned, as well, because if her craving indicates that she cannot wait. If she suppresses her desire to eat the rapunzel the plant, then she would have prevented her husband from getting in trouble with the witch, wouldn't she? But anyway, I am thinking of doing bad things or making mistakes with good intentions.

Also, if you do feel sorry and repent, how can that make you feel any better? You will still have memories of the times when you have done wrong against others, and you just want to erase those memories from your brain and not look back at them.

I don't think Christian faith necessarily requires that one feel regret for sins, although I'm sure that helps. Probably what is most important is that the person in question, whether sociopath or not, be able to learn to discern right from wrong and be able to value that distinction.

 

[bling]

There are always going to be people that die before they have the mental capacity to do one of the following: sin, feel they have hurt others (sinned), feel burdened by their transgressions, seek help, and turn to their benevolent creator. These people are all part of this world and present wonderful opportunities for true Christians to show unconditional Love. Unconditional Love does not require a change or even the possibility of a change in the person.

Just as demon possessed people could be healed by Jesus true Christians can heal people today, but it does not have to happen for the true Christian to show others Godly type Love.

People that die before reaching the mental capacity to fulfill their earthly objective can still go to heaven with only an instinctive type love to be cared for by those with a Godly type Love.

 

[Nanopants]

In my case it was simple. I was your typical atheist/agnostic: not exactly blameless but I wasn't exactly struggling with guilt or shame. That was around the time that the movies The Passion of the Christ and The Gospel of John had been released and were catching a lot of media attention. A friend had invited me to watch with him, and it was the crucifixion that broke my heart. For me it was about the narrative and what Christ was willing to do to save others, it had nothing to do with my own guilt, and all I knew at that point was that I wanted to know more about the faith.

 

[Hestha]

In my case it was simple. I was your typical atheist/agnostic: not exactly blameless but I wasn't exactly struggling with guilt or shame. That was around the time that the movies The Passion of the Christ and The Gospel of John had been released and were catching a lot of media attention. A friend had invited me to watch with him, and it was the crucifixion that broke my heart. For me it was about the narrative and what Christ was willing to do to save others, it had nothing to do with my own guilt, and all I knew at that point was that I wanted to know more about the faith.

And that's how you became a Christian. But why did you actually become a Christian? Why not choose some other religion? Why not The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

 

[Nanopants]

And that's how you became a Christian. But why did you actually become a Christian? Why not choose some other religion? Why not The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Because there is no merit to the flying spaghetti monster, whereas Christ's willful march to His own death was the greatest expression of goodness that I've ever come across.

I found it to be moving, enough for me to try prayer, asking God to show me the truth no matter how much it hurt me. That prayer was incontrovertibly answered, and that's how I was able to call myself a Christian.

 

[Hestha]

Because there is no merit to the flying spaghetti monster, whereas Christ's willful march to His own death was the greatest expression of goodness that I've ever come across.

I found it to be moving, enough for me to try prayer, asking God to show me the truth no matter how much it hurt me. That prayer was incontrovertibly answered, and that's how I was able to call myself a Christian.

So, you just magically knew how to pray without anybody teaching you or showing you how to pray? Did you observe other people praying or something? I just find your description very difficult to believe. You tell me that some miraculous event happened in your life and -poof- you became a Christian?

 

[Nanopants]

So, you just magically knew how to pray without anybody teaching you or showing you how to pray? Did you observe other people praying or something? I just find your description very difficult to believe. You tell me that some miraculous event happened in your life and -poof- you became a Christian?

If God is real, and God is the God of Christianity, then He should be able to answer prayer shouldn't He? I knew that I was going to have to see it for myself, so I decided to give it a try. Evidence was provided in my case.