Does (Chalcedonian) Orthodoxy suffer from imperial consciousness?

[archer75]

Forgive me, I didn't mean to challenge what you have experienced, as I don't doubt that it is a true phenomenon. I just meant that such things appear to be more popular on the internet than off of it, or so it seems to an outsider like me. But certainly every kook on the internet is also probably a kook in real life.

I'm actually normal, I just play this kooky character on the internet for fun.

 

[Lukaris]

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

Blade Runner.

 

[straykat]

I think Orthodox (and Eastern Catholics tbh) have a healthy appreciation for hardship. Maybe even see God more from it. And if not, God seems to make sure of it anyhow. What imperial powers are we even referring to? They're all gone. The church of Greece and Byzantium suffered centuries of Ottoman rule. Russia and the Slavic world suffered a century of Bolshevik rule. There are no other imperial powers worth mentioning.

Consider that the Ecumenical Patriarch resides in Turkey, where it might as well still be Ottoman. Erdogan has built a whopping 9000 mosques in the last 10 years. I'm pretty sure they still follow Islamic law that heavily taxes Christians, forbids them from preaching the gospel, and forbids the construction of churches without approval - and I'm pretty sure they have never once given into any approval whatsoever. And probably little approval to even renovate the decrepit churches that are there. And before that, they committed genocide on Armenians. And no one still cares.

Should I even mention Palestine? I'd probably get banned and couldn't stop myself from airing out my disgust for Zionism. How about Syria? How pathetic is it that the Orthodox best chance of survival is some Alawite Muslim who's villainized by the whole world and whose own time is probably up.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But what do you mean by conservative? Those who follow the definition of what it means to be Orthodox, or those who believe Father Seraphim Rose and Father Theodore Zisis are Gospel?

those who know Orthodoxy, and find it in Fr Seraphim Rose, Fr Theodore Zisis, Fr Alexander Schmemann, etc are the conservatives. those who make a guru out of any man, at the expense of others, are the liberals.

 

[Lukaris]

If it were not for Sts. John of Damascus, Maximos the Confessor, & Gregory Palamas I think the situation in the Church would not be good. Though they are considered our most important saints after the Apostles, they were against a system that has repeatedly shown itself to be cruel & corrupt.

The strange thing now is that at least the old system tried to be faithful while I think the system now may end up being seized by sell outs.

 

[dzheremi]

Erdogan has built a whopping 9000 mosques in the last 10 years.

Ugh. He just sucks so much. Turkey's never been great for Christians (to put it extremely mildly), but there's not even any secular reason to support that Wahhabi puppet or to continue to believe in the lie that Turkey represents some sort of moderate 'best face' of the Muslim world. (I imagine that would be better said of a place like Jordan, but that's another discussion.)

How about Syria? How pathetic is it that the Orthodox best chance of survival is some Alawite Muslim who's villainized by the whole world and whose own time is probably up.

Hey! God is not an Alawite Muslim.

 

[straykat]

Hey! God is not an Alawite Muslim.

Forgive me. You're right. It seems even in my post there, I subconsciously leaned on a secular power myself...and not even a Christian one! :\

 

[ArmyMatt]

If it were not for Sts. John of Damascus, Maximos the Confessor, & Gregory Palamas I think the situation in the Church would not be good. Though they are considered our most important saints after the Apostles, they were against a system that has repeatedly shown itself to be cruel & corrupt.

The strange thing now is that at least the old system tried to be faithful while I think the system now may end up being seized by sell outs.

don't forget Sts John Chrysostom and Basil the Great. I think you could add them to your list.

 

[TheLostCoin]

don't forget Sts John Chrysostom and Basil the Great. I think you could add them to your list.

And Saint Athanasius...

 

[TheLostCoin]

Blade Runner.

Call me a slave to the system, but I enjoyed that movie, and I thought that whole scene was beautiful and sad.

I really enjoy Dystopian media, especially when there is a very explicitly clear parallel to stories of the Bible or Christianity in general.

In Blade Runner, it's the War in Heaven, with the Fallen Angels revolting against their "Father" / Inventor.

 

[Lukaris]

Call me a slave to the system, but I enjoyed that movie, and I thought that whole scene was beautiful and sad.

I really enjoy Dystopian media, especially when there is a very explicitly clear parallel to stories of the Bible or Christianity in general.

In Blade Runner, it's the War in Heaven, with the Fallen Angels revolting against their "Father" / Inventor.

I still like it & interesting insight.

 

[prodromos]

Ugh. He just sucks so much. Turkey's never been great for Christians (to put it extremely mildly), but there's not even any secular reason to support that Wahhabi puppet or to continue to believe in the lie that Turkey represents some sort of moderate 'best face' of the Muslim world. (I imagine that would be better said of a place like Jordan, but that's another discussion.)

Hey! God is not an Alawite Muslim.

 

[Not David]

I have to admit that an Orthodox political authority would be great but evangelizing the heterodox would be better.

 

[Varangian Christian]

I have to admit that an Orthodox political authority would be great but evangelizing the heterodox would be better.

 

[Not David]

I feel "Conservative" in Orthodoxy should be divided into different subcategories.
(Yes, it is an old thread but I excuse myself by saying I have not slept)

 

[archer75]

I feel "Conservative" in Orthodoxy should be divided into different subcategories.
(Yes, it is an old thread but I excuse myself by saying I have not slept)

"Conservative" generally doesn't mean much and maybe should be abandoned as a term...more or less as you suggested.

 

[dzheremi]

Dividing into 'conservative' and 'liberal' wings is the desiccation of any church/communion. Just look at the modern RCC, if you can stand to. (That's not me attempting to pick on them or make fun; I was there myself for years, after all.)

There might not be any good single term(s) to use to describe Orthodoxy, as the entire discourse in western societies is so politicized and ridiculous (e.g., if you say "traditional", then it invites people to look for their "modern" parishes/people, which do exist but probably aren't a very good exemplar of more 'standard' Orthodox theology, eccelsiology, or whatever).

My question would be: isn't that a good thing? To be essentially above any such division that can be described in such low, secular terms probably makes Orthodoxy more attractive to people who are looking for exactly this -- and I personally know many to whom this applies. (And yes, I have talked to them about the faith, even though they are atheists and you guys don't think I'm Orthodox anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

 

[Not David]

Dividing into 'conservative' and 'liberal' wings is the desiccation of any church/communion. Just look at the modern RCC, if you can stand to. (That's not me attempting to pick on them or make fun; I was there myself for years, after all.)

There might not be any good single term(s) to use to describe Orthodoxy, as the entire discourse in western societies is so politicized and ridiculous (e.g., if you say "traditional", then it invites people to look for their "modern" parishes/people, which do exist but probably aren't a very good exemplar of more 'standard' Orthodox theology, eccelsiology, or whatever).

My question would be: isn't that a good thing? To be essentially above any such division that can be described in such low, secular terms probably makes Orthodoxy more attractive to people who are looking for exactly this -- and I personally know many to whom this applies. (And yes, I have talked to them about the faith, even though they are atheists and you guys don't think I'm Orthodox anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

Unfortunately, we live in a Western Hemisphere and we see how some Orthodox people are being influenced by Protestantism in its liberal and progressive form so it is inevitable that that will happen.

 

[dzheremi]

Is it really inevitable, though? I admit that I do not know how things work out in EO parishes, but in my little parish (6 families + whatever visitors we may have) there was frequent disagreement along political lines between the Egyptians and the Ethiopians (one of the Ethiopians voted for Obama...), but it was kept to the agape meal after the liturgy.

 

[Not David]

Is it really inevitable, though? I admit that I do not know how things work out in EO parishes, but in my little parish (6 families + whatever visitors we may have) there was frequent disagreement along political lines between the Egyptians and the Ethiopians (one of the Ethiopians voted for Obama...), but it was kept to the agape meal after the liturgy.

I thought we were talking about "religious conservative/liberal".