Does Bible say the earth is flat?

Sanoy

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2017
3,169
1,421
America
✟118,024.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In Isaiah 40:22 If you look at the earth from space, which is the vantage point of the analogy, it's a circle. From that vantage point the circle of the earth is the visible portion either on a flat or spherical planet. Just look at the moon...the part you can see is in a circle.

I don't think it's possible to derive their cosmology from that verse.
 
Last edited:
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

dysert

Member
Feb 29, 2012
6,233
2,238
USA
✟112,984.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In Isaiah 40:22 If you look at the earth from space, which is the vantage point of the analogy, it's a circle. From that vantage point the circle of the earth is the visible portion either on a flat or spherical planet. Just look at the moon...the part you can see is in a circle.

I don't think it's possible to derive their cosmology from that verse.
So, not only are they wrong when they say, "Yes, the Bible says the earth is flat," they're basing that entire paradigm on one misinterpreted verse??
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Modern or ancient, every culture operates within a certain cosmology or understanding of the universe. This cosmology sets the context of how a people understand their world and their place in it. With very few exceptions our modern day cosmology is shaped by the scientific discoveries of the past 500 years. Some of these discoveries have greatly upset religious understandings and it sometimes takes centuries to reconcile the differences. However, since we live in a culture that has been greatly shaped by the bible and Christian beliefs, it is worthwhile to ask about biblical cosmology.

The biblical understanding of the universe is much the same as that of the surrounding cultures in the ancient Middle East at the time when it was written. Unfortunately, nowhere does the bible attempt to present a comprehensive cosmology, so we are forced to rely upon individual passages and to attempt to understand them in the light of their culture and their history. To begin with, biblical cosmology can be characterized as a three-tiered universe. This strange phrase needs some explanation to make the concept clearer.

First, the surface of the earth is circular and flat except for geographical features like hills and valleys. This of course was the belief of the Sumerians. To these people it was theoretically possible to go high enough to see the entire earth, or to envision a tree tall enough that it could be seen from everywhere on the earth's surface, or even to build a tower to reach the sky. The sky was thought of as a solid bowl, called the firmament, that was upended over the circular earth to enclose a volume in the shape of a hemisphere. I should add that there are some bible verses that speak of the four corners of the earth. This was the view of the Babylonians. This would make the firmament look more like a tent than a bowl. The lights of the sky (sun, moon, planets and stars) were inside the firmament and were very much smaller than we presently understand. In fact they were very much smaller than the earth itself. The mechanism by which these celestial objects moved about is not really explained. The noncanonical Book of Enoch (mentioned in the bible as authoritive and part of the canon of Ethiopian Christians) speaks of gates in the east and west for the sun and the moon to enter and leave. Enoch also suggests that their movements are caused by winds.

What I have just described is the middle tier of the three. Above the firmament are waters. This region is described as heaven, the abode of God and the angels. There were also gates in the firmament to permit water to enter as rain. Below the earth are also waters. This region is described as sheol or hell. There were also gates in the earth to permit water to spring up from below. This three level universe is variously described as either hung on nothing or supported by pillars. Storehouses are also envisioned in heaven for the snow and hail.

How should a of Christian today react to this biblical cosmology? The vast majority of what might be described as 'mainline' Christians are actually quite comfortable with this seeming dichotomy. They recognize that the bible is the product of a relatively unsophisticated people with an entirely pre-scientific understanding of nature, who used poetic or metaphorical language to convey their spiritual understandings. On the other hand there is the minority point of view of those Christians who regard the bible to be inerrant and to be understood literally. This group has been forced into extreme apologetic efforts in order to reconcile the bible with modern scientific understandings.

Speaking personally, I find these apologetic attempts to be rather inventive and very strained. I believe that if the scripture writers and early target audience were to read these apologetics, they would find them extremely puzzling and entirely foreign. This is not to say that they were not intelligent people or not keen observers of nature but rather that that they lacked the intellectual basis to form scientific hypotheses and even the instrumentation to gather accurate data --- all that came about some 2,000 years later.

Isaiah 11:12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Psalm 104:5 "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."(NIV)

Psalm 93:1"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved." (NIV)

Psalm 96:10 "Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." (NIV)

Ecclesiastes 1:5 "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises." (NIV)

Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." (NIV)

Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (NIV)

Job 26:11 The pillars of the heavens quake, aghast at his rebuke. (NIV)

Job 38:22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail," (NIV)

Amos 9:6 The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens and has founded His VAULTED DOME over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the face of the earth, The LORD is His name. (NASB)

The biblical flat earth cosmology persisted into New Testament times. However by the mid second century Christianity had largely lost its Jewish roots and understandings and had become a gentile Greek speaking movement. Of course the Greeks knew that the earth was a sphere thanks to Eratosthenes who actually was able to calculate the circumference around 240 BC. This knowledge gradually percolated into Jewish and Christian thought especially after Ptolemy introduced his cosmology in the mid second century. The earth became the center of the universe with the moon and then the sun and then the planets, with complicated epicycles, and then the “fixed” stars all in orbit around it. This was the cosmology accepted by Christianity until the revolution of Copernicus, Kepler. Galileo and Newton. This was resisted by Christianity largely on the basis that the earth was not the center of God’s creation. In a relatively short time even this scientific insight was not only accepted but accepted to the extent that the biblical cosmology of a flat earth was rejected. The flat earth was not only rejected but ridiculous arguments were even invented to suggest that the bible was not even suggesting a flat earth at all. Such, all too often, is the way some Christians react to new understandings and insights.

Even having said all this, the belief in a flat earth persisted for a very long time, even in educated circles, as is evidenced in this comment by Ferdinand Magellan, the first person to circumnavigate the globe: “The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.” It took time but the modern cosmology took root in society at large, so much so that some Christians even return to the bible and attempt to reinterpret it in such a way as to “prove” that it was speaking of a spherical earth orbiting the sun all along.

*****

Any theory that makes any sort of pretense to be scientific must also make predictions that if shown to be false would invalidate the theory. For example when I in Canada observe the night sky i see the stars moving in a circle around the pole star (aka Polaris or the North Star). For us this rotation is clockwise. However people in southern countries cannot even see the pole star but they do observe a counterclockwise rotation. If our world is flat then the stars will move over it all in the same direction at every point on the surface because wherever you are on the surface you are always looking at the same stars. Australians not only observe the stars rotating in an opposite direction to Canadians, but, moreover, they see entirely different stars, hence the flat earth theory is invalidated.
 
Upvote 0

Sanoy

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2017
3,169
1,421
America
✟118,024.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So, not only are they wrong when they say, "Yes, the Bible says the earth is flat," they're basing that entire paradigm on one misinterpreted verse??

There is one other verse that is said to show that they believed the earth is flat. That is Job 26:10. "He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness."

It is thought that the circle that is inscribed here is the circle of land (earth)floating on the waters (space/celestial sea). What I think this verse is referring to is the plane of the ecliptic. This is the zodiacal band. Over the course of a year the apparent path of the sun inscribes a circle on the face of the waters (Space/Celestial sea). Now the later half of this verse is translated "until the day and night come to an end" in the KJV. This I believe refers to the promise of Genesis 8:22 that the celestial motions, including day and night, will not cease as long as the earth remains. (side note the plane of the ecliptic also inscribes a line that shapes the entire mass distribution of the universe)

I think a lot of the other side-verses that get thrown around, like we have already seen, are just a confusion of culturally symbolic language like the world tree motif, and cosmic directions like the North as well as taking certain language literally like, "reached to the heavens" which is a common expressive phrase to mean that it was tall. In the case of the tower of Babel it meant both because the ziggurats were symbols of the cosmic tree motif. They reached the heavens like the ziggurat Etemenanki (The foundation of heaven and earth) and the underworld like the ziggurat Simmiltu which Nergal descended through in the myth of Nergal and Ereshkigal. They reached them ritually, not in a linear distance. That time period is just filled with symbolic language that we can't assume is meant to be literal.
 
Last edited:
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
(side note the plane of the ecliptic also inscribes a line that shapes the entire mass distribution of the universe)

True only of our galaxy not the entire universe.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

FrankDux

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2016
413
256
62
USA
✟14,876.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Sure doesn't, and anybody claiming that " ancient " people thought the earth was flat are completely clueless

There is nothing in Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian, or any other texts that refers to the Earth as flat

In fact, the " four regions " are they are known, refer to the directions and the land seen in the boundary of the horizon

If you don't grasp the title " King of the four regions " you obviously have NEVER actually studied Mesopotamian history, because that is literally one of the first things you'd learn

Truthfully, I don't understand why people have to be intellectual posers and argue they know anything about Mesopotamian cosmology or astronomy / mathematics, because I know none of them study those topics
 
Upvote 0

W2L

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2016
20,081
10,988
USA
✟213,573.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Truthfully, I don't understand why people have to be intellectual posers
Thats the internet for you. Im not impressed with peoples credentials or arguments. Im impressed with love and meekness instead. Show me that and you have my attention. :)
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Thats the internet for you. Im not impressed with peoples credentials or arguments. Im impressed with love and meekness instead. Show me that and you have my attention. :)

I would be perfect if I could just get over my excessive humility.:preach:
 
Upvote 0

Sanoy

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2017
3,169
1,421
America
✟118,024.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
True only of our galaxy not the entire universe.
As far as I know it's the whole universe.

Lawrence Krauss.

"But when you look at CMB map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun. Is this Copernicus coming back to haunt us? That's crazy. We're looking out at the whole universe. There's no way there should be a correlation of structure with our motion of the earth around the sun — the plane of the earth around the sun — the ecliptic. That would say we are truly the center of the universe."

(although not within the realm of the topic I think it pertinent to mention that Krauss, iirc, rejects that we are in the center of the Universe. I merely quote his reference to show that the CMB alignment to the ecliptic relates to the entire Universe rather than just the solar system)
 
Last edited:
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FrankDux

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2016
413
256
62
USA
✟14,876.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Thats the internet for you. Im not impressed with peoples credentials or arguments. Im impressed with love and meekness instead. Show me that and you have my attention. :)

Well, I wish you best in being impressed by that, I hope it happens for you
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

Dither

Active Member
May 10, 2017
38
20
59
Gold Coast
✟18,511.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Thank you once again Jack for posting that excellent summation. Yes I still believe in the firmament and that the sun and moon and stars are positioned in them. The stars are lights (possibly sonoluminescence) and everything is a lot closer than we are led to believe.

Please everyone keep researching, the bible is Geocentric, Gods word is infailable, the firmanent never disappeared with the deluge as Creation Ministries would have you believe, its still there, that's why its mentioned in the psalms.

Please Please Please Research.
 
Upvote 0

66/40

Active Member
Mar 6, 2016
103
79
I banned this website
✟4,939.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
People vainly attempt to pull out misinformation from the Bible all the time. Likewise, give me five minutes with the dictionary and I'll prove to you that I can pull out the hidden secret sauce recipe of domino's pizza!

The earth is round people.
Does the Bible teach that the earth is flat?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Greg Merrill

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2017
3,536
4,621
71
Las Vegas
✟342,224.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It mentions the circle of the Earth and in another place that your sins cast as far as the East is from the West. You can walk or travel East on Earth forever but you can only travel North so far before you're headed South again. That says globe to me ..
Some have said that a circle can still be flat. But I like your "East and West" added to that to come up with the globe I also believe. Isaiah 40:22 is the circle passage by the way.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

Greg Merrill

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2017
3,536
4,621
71
Las Vegas
✟342,224.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Does the Bible say the earth is circling the Sun?
I doubt it. Until Galileo observed 4 moons circling Jupiter, everyone believed everything in space was circling the earth. If the Bible had said otherwise they would not have been believing this.
 
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Some have said that a circle can still be flat.

Not "can still be flat" but "is always flat". A circle is a plane figure --- ie. it is not three dimensional. A sphere or globe or ball is a three dimensional object that from a distance can look like a circle.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

Greg Merrill

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2017
3,536
4,621
71
Las Vegas
✟342,224.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Not "can still be flat" but "is always flat". A circle is a plane figure --- ie. it is not three dimensional. A sphere or globe or ball is a three dimensional object that from a distance can look like a circle.
Semantics. The world may look flat, but if one keeps heading to the horizon...the horizon will continue to be beyond their reach... and if they keep on going they will eventually "circle" the earth. This could only be done if the earth was a globe. God gave man the intelligence to be able to figure this and what His Word means. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums