If the water pipes broke and the baptistry was bone dry, would my salvation have to wait until the plumber showed up?
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does baptism save???
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Please do not mistake being "washed in the baptistry of the church" for being washed in the blood of Christ.
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Not under Catholic teaching. You have something called "baptism by desire".
Under Catholic teaching, the only way that baptism ever makes a difference in someone's salvation is if they *refuse* to be baptized. That's a very unlikely situation for someone that has what we might call "true faith" so the issue rarely comes up.
-Chris
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If my past sins are forgiven when I am baptized in water, and it is possible for me to "lose my salvation" and go to hell after being baptized, then wouldn't my best chance of going to heaven be to drown in the baptistry?!! - before I had a chance to sin so as to be lost again? If I wanted to be absolutely sure of heaven, isn't that my best opportunity?
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What's kinda funny is that they used to baptise you right before you died because they thought like this...
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my NIV version doesnt have the verse...and it came after the KJV whos to say that the NIV just didnt take it out...
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Here are the footnotes from the NET bible as to why the verse is not in most modern versions:
A few later mss add <B>8:37</B> He said to him, If you believe with your whole heart, you may. He replied, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Verse 37 is omitted by Ì45 Ì74 Í A B C Y 33 81 181 614 1175 1409 2344 <I>Byz</I>. It is included, with minor variants, by 36 307 453 610 945 1678 1739 1891 it. It is almost certainly not a part of the original text of Acts. The variant is significant in showing how some in the early church viewed a confession of faith. The present translation follows the standard critical Greek texts in omitting the verse number, a procedure also followed by a number of other modern translations.
You'll have to go to www.bible.org to see what the cross-refs are. Bottom line is that this verse is not in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts. The KJV used a very late manuscript. In fact the last 6 verses of Revelation were not even in any of the manuscripts that Erasmus used to create the TR. He translated from Latin into Greek. Thus the last 6 verses of the King James version are a Translation of a Translation of a Translation from the original Greek (Greek - Latin - Greek - English) and do not match ANY manuscript ever found.
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
I just wanted to point out that this exact topic was adressed in Galatians:
Galatians 5:1-3
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
There was obviously nothing wrong with circumcision. The point Paul was making was that if you become circumcised thinking you are completing or adding to the perfect, complete work of Christ it will not benefit you at all because your faith is not in the work of Christ that completed the work necessary to reconcile God's elect to Himself. Our work are the outward, natural result of the faith that God has manifested in us by giving us a new nature.
God bless
Galatians 5:1-3
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
There was obviously nothing wrong with circumcision. The point Paul was making was that if you become circumcised thinking you are completing or adding to the perfect, complete work of Christ it will not benefit you at all because your faith is not in the work of Christ that completed the work necessary to reconcile God's elect to Himself. Our work are the outward, natural result of the faith that God has manifested in us by giving us a new nature.
God bless
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1CO 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
The bible says that to equate baptism with salvation is to empty the cross of Jesus of it's power.
1CO 2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
The bible says that Jesus Christ crucified is the only message of salvation.
The truth is: We can't handle works, we can only judge and boast as we work.
Many have come to Christianity by way of fellowship, love, study but many have missed the cross.
If you go to the cross of Jesus you will see a perfect life taken away. You will see a perfect life beaten, nail pierced, spit on, and finally stabbed and drained of blood.
Why? Because imperfect man cannot be with a Holy God. Imperfect man was created perfect, walked with God but was deceived and thus cut off from God while carrying the inherited sin nature into all future generations.
Imperfect man can do not one thing to correct what has already been corrected by a perfect life, The cross is salvation.
Jesus died so I can be with Him. Read all of John chapter 17. It is 3 prayers, prayed before He goes to the cross. Jesus told us that His desire was for His chosen ones to be with Him. The cross was the price for this prayer to be answered.
It worked!!!!!!!
Baptism is a good thing to do....but it's not salvation or any part of it.....Jesus did all of it at the cross.
The bible says that to equate baptism with salvation is to empty the cross of Jesus of it's power.
1CO 2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
The bible says that Jesus Christ crucified is the only message of salvation.
The truth is: We can't handle works, we can only judge and boast as we work.
Many have come to Christianity by way of fellowship, love, study but many have missed the cross.
If you go to the cross of Jesus you will see a perfect life taken away. You will see a perfect life beaten, nail pierced, spit on, and finally stabbed and drained of blood.
Why? Because imperfect man cannot be with a Holy God. Imperfect man was created perfect, walked with God but was deceived and thus cut off from God while carrying the inherited sin nature into all future generations.
Imperfect man can do not one thing to correct what has already been corrected by a perfect life, The cross is salvation.
Jesus died so I can be with Him. Read all of John chapter 17. It is 3 prayers, prayed before He goes to the cross. Jesus told us that His desire was for His chosen ones to be with Him. The cross was the price for this prayer to be answered.
It worked!!!!!!!
Baptism is a good thing to do....but it's not salvation or any part of it.....Jesus did all of it at the cross.
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human wisdom lest the cross of Christ be emptied of it's power
-total misunderstanding. Trying to debate with anyone using only human wisdom to explain divine things is absurd and can't be done. It's like those who can't see the trees for the forest and those who can see but have no vision. That's like some people who read the Bible and see the words but can't see the truth of them (my husband for instance). The Bible is not a manual, it is a work of truth and the Words of God. One passage in Scripture cannot contradict another because if they did, then the Bible would have errors in it because there is only one truth, and one passage would be true and not the other, and we all agree that the Bible is inerrent so therefore there is a way for all passages to reconcile themselves which each other. For us, that is the infallible interpretation of the Catholic Church which says that faith and works save not by faith alone, not by works alone. What else can be said? I have proven my case with Scripture, and you think you have, so what next??? Christ told us we must imitate him, so if there is nothing else you do, do that.
When we are baptised we are baptised into his death and resurection? in other words, we are baptised in Christ crucified. We are all born in Adam and in Christ we all die in baptism and are reborn.
"For just as death came by means of a man, in the same way the rising from death comes by means of a man. For just as all people die because of their union with Adam, in the same way all will be raised to life because of their union with Christ." 1Cor 15:21-22
"By our baptism, then, we were buried with him and shared his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from death by the glorious power of the Father, so also we might live a new life."Romans 6:4
There comes a point when we must agree to disagree and I think this is that point.
Thanx, Luv
Theresa
-total misunderstanding. Trying to debate with anyone using only human wisdom to explain divine things is absurd and can't be done. It's like those who can't see the trees for the forest and those who can see but have no vision. That's like some people who read the Bible and see the words but can't see the truth of them (my husband for instance). The Bible is not a manual, it is a work of truth and the Words of God. One passage in Scripture cannot contradict another because if they did, then the Bible would have errors in it because there is only one truth, and one passage would be true and not the other, and we all agree that the Bible is inerrent so therefore there is a way for all passages to reconcile themselves which each other. For us, that is the infallible interpretation of the Catholic Church which says that faith and works save not by faith alone, not by works alone. What else can be said? I have proven my case with Scripture, and you think you have, so what next??? Christ told us we must imitate him, so if there is nothing else you do, do that.
When we are baptised we are baptised into his death and resurection? in other words, we are baptised in Christ crucified. We are all born in Adam and in Christ we all die in baptism and are reborn.
"For just as death came by means of a man, in the same way the rising from death comes by means of a man. For just as all people die because of their union with Adam, in the same way all will be raised to life because of their union with Christ." 1Cor 15:21-22
"By our baptism, then, we were buried with him and shared his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from death by the glorious power of the Father, so also we might live a new life."Romans 6:4
There comes a point when we must agree to disagree and I think this is that point.
Thanx, Luv
Theresa
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Amen, and I am afraid it will be the difference between Heaven and Hell for some people.
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
There is one important point that those who agree that our works do not earn us salvation must understand. If we are not saved by our works, we cannot be condemned by our works. Whether any of us are right in our interpretation isn't the determining factor in our salvation. God decides who is saved and He doesn't base it on how well we understand Scripture. Understanding God's Word is something that comes about due to the regeneration of our minds through the studying of the Word, not our salvation. This is clearly seen in a new believer. They are often on fire for God but know next to nothing about Him. Their lack of theological understanding, however, is not a factor in whether they are saved. IOW, our understanding of God's Word will never be "the difference between Heaven and Hell" for anyone. Our understanding of God's Word is a product of His grace, as is our salvation. You cannot earn salvation by your works, nor do you lose salvation by your works. Before anyone attacks, let me say that if a person is saved their works will exemplify that change. Not in every instance, but definitely in their desire to do God's Will and repent when they don't.
God bless
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Originally posted by cthoma11
Attacks?... How and on what basis? That was an awesome post!Thanks!
Thank you. That's very nice of you to say. Did you also give me all these blessings? If so, thank you. And, here's some of those back!
God bless
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Baptism is a good thing to do....but it's not salvation or any part of it.....nor do works produce salvation......Jesus did all of it at the cross.
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Reformed, I think your post on the previous page pretty much summed it up, and very well done too. Again that verse on God completeing the work in us is very key here also. Baptism doesn't play a part becuase no work of man does, nothing we can do to earn grace, that's the point of it.
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