does baptism save???

[Theresa]

God said, "He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcized (Gen 17:12) St. Paul tells us that baptism replaces circumcision (Col 2:11-12) Circumcision was a visible sign of the covenant, baptism is an invisible sign which only God can see. In order to be a Jew, you had to be circumcized. You could say that in order to be a Christian, you have to be baptised. Baptism is the NT equivalent to circumcision. Baptism is not superfluous. The question for converts was whether they needed to be circumcized and baptised (and even whether or not Gentiles could even pariticipate, which means, people like you and me). Peter, acting as head of the Apostles, declared, Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone then, stop them from being baptised with water. So he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." This could be considered the first dogmatic decision and proof perhaps that Peter was given authority to make these decisions. The people weren't arguing whether baptism was necessary, they were arguing that Gentiles needed to be circumcized first and Peter declared that baptism is the sign of the new convenant and circumcision was replaced by baptism and Gentiles could participate.

"Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS,'" Acts 2:38

"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptised, and wash away your sins, " (Acts 22:16)


"BY OUR BAPTISM, THEN, WE WERE BURIED WITH HIM AND SHARED HIS DEATH, IN ORDER THAT, JUST AS CHRIST WAS RAISED FROM DEATH BY THE GLORIOUS POWER OF THE FATHER, SO ALSO WE MIGHT LIVE A NEW LIFE."
From your favorite book, Romans 6:4. One could conclude that if we are not baptised then we may not live a new life!

Theresa

 

[new2calvin]

most of the verses in the bible say believe and be baptised. saying first u must believe and after that be baptized as a symbol to your comitment to God. Ive never come across a verse that says believe or be baptized.
and if baptism saves why dont we just go out and spray water on people and baptize them, then all would be saved no matter what they did in life.

God Be Praised

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Theresa
God said, "He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcized (Gen 17:12) St. Paul tells us that baptism replaces circumcision (Col 2:11-12)

true.

 

In order to be a Jew, you had to be circumcized. You could say that in order to be a Christian, you have to be baptised.[/B]

 

yes to the first part and no to the second.  Read Romans 4 it kills your argument that circumsism was needed for the Jews to be saved so if Baptisnm replaces Circmcism then Baptism is not necessary either.  Abraham was saved before he was circumsised. 


Rom 4:1-25
CHAPTER 4

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
16 For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, {even} God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.
18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE."
19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb;
20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,
21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.
22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,
24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
25 {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.
(NAU)

 

  

Baptism is the NT equivalent to circumcision. Baptism is not superfluous. The question for converts was whether they needed to be circumcized and baptised (and even whether or not Gentiles could even pariticipate, which means, people like you and me). Peter, acting as head of the Apostles, declared, Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone then, stop them from being baptised with water. So he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." This could be considered the first dogmatic decision and proof perhaps that Peter was given authority to make these decisions. The people weren't arguing whether baptism was necessary, they were arguing that Gentiles needed to be circumcized first and Peter declared that baptism is the sign of the new convenant and circumcision was replaced by baptism and Gentiles could participate. .[/B]

 

this does not prove that it is necessary for salvation though.  i thin we all believe it is very important.  But many do not believe that one has to be baptised to be saved. 

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Theresa
God said, "He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcized (Gen 17:12) St. Paul tells us that baptism replaces circumcision (Col 2:11-12) Circumcision was a visible sign of the covenant, baptism is an invisible sign which only God can see. In order to be a Jew, you had to be circumcized. You could say that in order to be a Christian, you have to be baptised. Baptism is the NT equivalent to circumcision. Baptism is not superfluous. The question for converts was whether they needed to be circumcized and baptised (and even whether or not Gentiles could even pariticipate, which means, people like you and me). Peter, acting as head of the Apostles, declared, Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone then, stop them from being baptised with water. So he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." This could be considered the first dogmatic decision and proof perhaps that Peter was given authority to make these decisions. The people weren't arguing whether baptism was necessary, they were arguing that Gentiles needed to be circumcized first and Peter declared that baptism is the sign of the new convenant and circumcision was replaced by baptism and Gentiles could participate.

"Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS,'" Acts 2:38

"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptised, and wash away your sins, " (Acts 22:16)


"BY OUR BAPTISM, THEN, WE WERE BURIED WITH HIM AND SHARED HIS DEATH, IN ORDER THAT, JUST AS CHRIST WAS RAISED FROM DEATH BY THE GLORIOUS POWER OF THE FATHER, SO ALSO WE MIGHT LIVE A NEW LIFE."
From your favorite book, Romans 6:4. One could conclude that if we are not baptised then we may not live a new life!

Theresa

Acts 15:24,25
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law" --to whom we gave no such commandment--<SUP> </SUP>it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,...

Luke is point blank telling the Gentiles that the men that told them they must be circumcised (or in your case, baptized) and keep the Law to be saved were WRONG.

Galatians 5:2
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Obviously there's nothing wrong with being circumcised.&nbsp; This is in reference to the Jews believing that they had to add to the perfect work of Christ.&nbsp; This is exactly what you are saying, only you have changed the word to "baptized."&nbsp; If you believe that your baptism adds to, or completes, the perfect work of Christ then then act has not benefitted you at all.&nbsp; Being baptized is all well and good.&nbsp; But we should do it because it is our outward sign of affiliation with our new Father.&nbsp; It is not some magical ceremony wherein we are bestowed with the Holy Spirit like it's some boy scout merit badge.

God bless

 

[Theresa]

Once again, a misinterpretation of our teaching. Prayers won't save you, the Eucharist alone won't save you, baptism won't save you, and faith alone won't save you. However, faith and baptism, prayers, love, the Eucharist and the like will save you. Hence our teaching that salvation is through faith and works. Not faith or works but faith and works.

Many of you spend your life trying to prove that Christ cannot work through matter such as water, when it was his divine nature taking on human flesh (matter) which leads to our redemption. And it's no magical formula, it's the power of Christ.

Thanx, Luv
Theresa

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Theresa
Once again, a misinterpretation of our teaching. Prayers won't save you, the Eucharist alone won't save you, baptism won't save you, and faith alone won't save you. However, faith and baptism, prayers, love, the Eucharist and the like will save you. Hence our teaching that salvation is through faith and works. Not faith or works but faith and works.

Many of you spend your life trying to prove that Christ cannot work through matter such as water, when it was his divine nature taking on human flesh (matter) which leads to our redemption. And it's no magical formula, it's the power of Christ.

Thanx, Luv
Theresa

Uh who was this to?&nbsp; I showed that circumcism did not save Abraham and so your point of saying that baptism took its place so that baptism is necessary for salvation does not hold water.&nbsp; circumcism is not necessary for salvation and neither is baptism.&nbsp; They never were and never will be.&nbsp; It is and has always been salvation by grace through faith and not works at all.

Look at these verses.&nbsp;

Eph 2:8-10
8&nbsp;For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
9&nbsp;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10&nbsp;For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
(NAU)

&nbsp;

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Theresa
Once again, a misinterpretation of our teaching.

Whose teaching?&nbsp; The Catholic church?&nbsp; I don't interpret your teachings.&nbsp; I have no clue why you do many of the things you do, other than the fact that you believe it to be the truth.&nbsp; The Scriptural reasoning behind much of it, though, is lost on me.

Prayers won't save you, the Eucharist alone won't save you, baptism won't save you, and faith alone won't save you.

There seems to be difference between your reference to the Eucharist and everything else.&nbsp; Do you believe taking the Eucharist has some salvitic quality?

However, faith and baptism, prayers, love, the Eucharist and the like will save you. Hence our teaching that salvation is through faith and works. Not faith or works but faith and works.

I&nbsp;think part of the problem comes about because I believe there is a point at which we are saved, that is regenerate, and you, as I understand it, believe you are saved when you die, is that right?&nbsp; Anyway, when you say&nbsp;we are saved by "faith and works" and you read passages like:

Ephesians 2:8,9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast.&nbsp;

How does that seem to jibe with what you are saying.&nbsp; Paul didn't say, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works ALONE, lest anyone should boast."&nbsp; He says NOT of works.&nbsp; How does that fit in with what you are saying?

Thanks,

God bless

 

[JesusIsMySaviour]

I believe the scriptures teach that baptism is essential for salvation and I also believe the apostles felt this way too.

Luke 24:47 The commission was given to the apostles first: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations beginning in Jerusalem.

Mathew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of The Holy Ghost.

Mark 16:15-16: Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ******."

In summary, the apostle were commanded to preach repantance and remission of sins beginning at Jerusalem. They were to baptize all nations(we know only Jesus can baptize with the Holy Spirit so this must be water baptism). And, Mark affirms that those who believed and were baptized would be saved.(I don't question this verse as some might. I have faith and belief that&nbsp;God was wise and powerful enough to put preserve His word and&nbsp;put together His book the way he wanted it.)

So, the question is, did the apostles obey Jesus?

Acts 1:4 records that the apostles were in fact waiting in Jerusalem as instructed. Luke 24:49 also recorded that they would be empowered to begin their ministries which is consistent with Acts 1:4. Acts 2:1-4 records that they were in fact empowered with the Holy Spirt. The apostles then go on to explain this to the onlookers and then begin to preach Jesus to them. Finally, after being convicted for what they had done to Jesus, they asked the apostles "what shall we do"?. Peter responded: repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If you notice, they did everything Jesus commanded: they preached the gospel in His name, repentance and baptism and the promise of the Spirit. Also, Acts 5:32 proclaims that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him. This is why I feel baptism is essential for salvation. God Bless.

 

[new2calvin]

again i bring this point up...if baptism saves lets just baptize everyone we see and they can be saved. the bulk of baptism in the Bible talks about an inward baptism. The water and words mean nothing. well they mean something but its just symbolism. Baptism is when the Holy Spirit comes into a person. Spraying water on someone and sayin Holy words wont do that.

God Be Praised

 

[Outspoken]

". Baptism is the NT equivalent to circumcision."

I think blackhawk covered it very well. If you want to make that link, then baptism has NOTHING to do with the water ritual at all according to Paul, for he himself says TRUE circumsicion is something done of the heart, not of the skin (romans 2:28). This is why I say baptism is important, BUT not part of salvation.

 

[Outspoken]

"They were to baptize all nations(we know only Jesus can baptize with the Holy Spirit so this must be water baptism)."

I disagree, Christ clearly talks about the baptism as baptism of the Holy Spirit always in John 3. the water ritual is just that, a ritual, a ritual with meaning, but not something having to do with salvation. It is a representation of a spiritual change.

 

[Theresa]

I guess I was replying to "new2calvin" for saying that we can just spray people with water. They have to believe and be baptised. ie faith and works. We don't believe baptism saves or faith saves, but faith and baptism and the like. We believe that at the moment of baptism you are freed from original sin, but the stain of sin remains and so temptation is still a part of life. At the moment of baptism you receive grace and at that moment you are clean and your sins have been forgiven. But then you go out in the world and sin again which is why we preach repentance and confession. I think I just got your point though. If it is just a ritual with magic Christ powers then a non-believer can recieve them except, a non-believer will go out and sin again and not come back for confession. Baptism on it's own doesn't save but it is a necessary step in the salvation process along with faith and confession/repentence although it once and for all removes original sin.

I ask you why was Abraham a son of God? Because God tested him and he prevailed. He was asked to sacrifice his son and he was going to but God prevented him by saying that he himself would provide the sacrifice which is a really interesting allusion to how God wouldn't let Abraham sacrifice Isaac, but God himself would sacrifice Jesus. Anyways, Abraham is a touchy subject because he was about before circumcision was institiuted by God as a sign of the covenant. "You also must agree to keep the covenant with me, both you and your descendants in future generations. You and your descendants must also agree to circumcise every male among you....Any male who has not been circumcised will no longer be considered one of my people, because he has NOT KEPT THE COVENANT WITH ME......(23) on that same day Abraham obeyed God and circumcised his son Ishamael and all the other males in his household......"

It's just impossible to argue about Abraham. Circumcision served it's purpose until Christ came, he didn't destroy the law, he changed it, perhaps even so it can encompass more people. How many 30 year old males would convert to Christianity if it meant circumcision (without pain killers, etc). God made the new covenant more accesable to everyone, a baptism with water which is everywhere. If you are not baptised you have not kept the covenant with him. God said this, "Any male who has not been circumcized will no longer be considered one of my people." Does that mean if they believe in God but are not circumcised then they are God's people?

I'm not really fluent in the Old Testament, but I will say this. Our culture has totally lost the meaning of covenants and oaths, etc. One has to research the history of these things and the importance of them to the Jews to truly understand what they meant.

CCC:
977- Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life."
978 - "When we made our first profession of faith while recieving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin not offenses committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them.....Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil."
979 - "In this battle against our inclination towards evil, who could be brave and watchful enough to escape every wound of sin? "If the Chruch has the power to forgive sins, then Baptism cannot be her only means of using the keys of the Kingdom of heaven received from Jesus Christ. The Church must be able to forgive all penitents thier offenses, even if they should sin until the last moment of their lives."
980- It is throughtthe sacrament of Penance that the baptized can be reconciled with God and with the Church: Penance has rightly been called by the holy fathers "a laborious kind of baptism." This sacrament of Penance is neccessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn.
405: Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totoally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it; suject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death; and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called "concupiscence." Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back toward God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiitual battle.

1446 - Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church; above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded eccelsial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibilty to covert and to recover the grace of justificaiton. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace."


Peace Be With You!
Thanx, Luv
Theresa

 

[new2calvin]

so the water saves??? i thought God did that?
and did the act of circumsision save???

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Theresa
I guess I was replying to "new2calvin" for saying that we can just spray people with water. They have to believe and be baptised. ie faith and works. We don't believe baptism saves or faith saves, but faith and baptism and the like. We believe that at the moment of baptism you are freed from original sin, but the stain of sin remains and so temptation is still a part of life. At the moment of baptism you receive grace and at that moment you are clean and your sins have been forgiven. But then you go out in the world and sin again which is why we preach repentance and confession.

And that is a very historical view of the process.&nbsp; Augustine in his small catechism "The Enchiridion on faith, hope, and love" (everyone should read this book)&nbsp; states about baptism:

"But babies die to original sin, while older people die to all those sins that by evil living they have added to the sin they have brought with them from birth" (p72, trans. Bruce Harbert, New city press, Hyde park,Ny 1999)

However although I usually agree with Augustine here I disagree. I do not agree that Baptism washes away original sin and can find no references&nbsp;in the Bible that it does.&nbsp;&nbsp;Sure there are comments on how spiritual baptism or repentence is key in becoming saved but I&nbsp;do not see where the Bible states that physical baptism plays a role in it.&nbsp;Really it took the reformation&nbsp;occur before this belief was changed and not&nbsp;all reformation leaders agreed in believer baptsim.&nbsp; Zwingli&nbsp;argued with his pupils&nbsp;about this so much that they borke&nbsp;off and became&nbsp;the AnaBaptistsand then were hunted down and killed by Zwingli.&nbsp; His killing of one of them (forget the name) was the first instance of one protestant becoming a matyr at the hands of another protestant.&nbsp; &nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;I think I just got your point though. If it is just a ritual with magic Christ powers then a non-believer can recieve them except, a non-believer will go out and sin again and not come back for confession. Baptism on it's own doesn't save but it is a necessary step in the salvation process along with faith and confession/repentence although it once and for all removes original sin. [/B]

That might of been his point.&nbsp; Mine was that physical baptism like Circumsism for the jews&nbsp;is just a sign of being a Christian. It does not make you one.&nbsp;For example I played football in High school and I received a letter jacket. That jacket was a sign to everyone that I played football for my high school but that jacket did not make me a football player.&nbsp;

I ask you why was Abraham a son of God? Because God tested him and he prevailed. He was asked to sacrifice his son and he was going to but God prevented him by saying that he himself would provide the sacrifice which is a really interesting allusion to how God wouldn't let Abraham sacrifice Isaac, but God himself would sacrifice Jesus. Anyways, Abraham is a touchy subject because he was about before circumcision was institiuted by God as a sign of the covenant. "You also must agree to keep the covenant with me, both you and your descendants in future generations. You and your descendants must also agree to circumcise every male among you....Any male who has not been circumcised will no longer be considered one of my people, because he has NOT KEPT THE COVENANT WITH ME......(23) on that same day Abraham obeyed God and circumcised his son Ishamael and all the other males in his household......"[/B]

&nbsp;

but then are you claiming that Paul was wrong?&nbsp; That scripture somehow is wrong?&nbsp; Paul in&nbsp;Romans 4 says that he was saved before circumcism.&nbsp; &nbsp;
What do you do with these verses?

Rom 4:10-16
10&nbsp;How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11&nbsp;and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
12&nbsp;and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
13&nbsp;For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14&nbsp;For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
15&nbsp;for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
16&nbsp;For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
(NAU)

It clearly states that the circumsism is not what saved Abraham nor anyone else.&nbsp;

It's just impossible to argue about Abraham. Circumcision served it's purpose until Christ came, he didn't destroy the law, he changed it, perhaps even so it can encompass more people. How many 30 year old males would convert to Christianity if it meant circumcision (without pain killers, etc). God made the new covenant more accesable to everyone, a baptism with water which is everywhere. If you are not baptised you have not kept the covenant with him. God said this, "Any male who has not been circumcized will no longer be considered one of my people." Does that mean if they believe in God but are not circumcised then they are God's people?......" [/B]

&nbsp;

Yes and no.&nbsp; See like Baptism circumsism was a sign that one was one of His people.&nbsp; So naturally one who is of God's people at that time would be circumsised&nbsp;just like one will be baptised today.&nbsp; However it does not save a person though.&nbsp;&nbsp;Our&nbsp;actions show our faith.&nbsp; So if I will not be baptised then I really do not have faith.&nbsp; i believe that was what James spoke about in his epistle also.&nbsp; True faith can be judged by the actions of a person.&nbsp; If I say I have faith but I do not want to do what God has commanded me to do then you can&nbsp;know that I really do not have faith.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

I'm not really fluent in the Old Testament, but I will say this. Our culture has totally lost the meaning of covenants and oaths, etc. One has to research the history of these things and the importance of them to the Jews to truly understand what they meant. [/B]

&nbsp;

I agree.&nbsp;And thanks for the reading. It was interesting.&nbsp; What did it come from though.&nbsp; CCc? What is that?&nbsp; I do not want to go through all of ti but I disagree that salvation is faith plus baptism or pennance or any other work.&nbsp; I agree with Paul that salvaion is not by the law at all.&nbsp; It by grace through faith.&nbsp;

 

[unitedistand]

Baptism is just an outward sign of an inward change... it is only symbolic, not the full gospel...

Mind you, Jesus never preached "be baptised and you will enter in the kingdom of heaven"... but Baptism is sort've a confession by actions on that you've accepted Yashua Ha Meschiah (Jesus) as your lord and savior.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Theresa
We believe that at the moment of baptism you are freed from original sin

So you believe that to get something that isn't based on works, i.e., grace, you have to work?

but the stain of sin remains and so temptation is still a part of life.

Don't you guys baptize infants?&nbsp; If so, what sin has left a stain if original sin was atoned for?

At the moment of baptism you receive grace and at that moment you are clean and your sins have been forgiven.

What about the grace that you received before being baptized that even enabled you to believe in the first place?&nbsp; Or do you believe man can overcome the fallenness of his depravity without God's grace?

But then you go out in the world and sin again which is why we preach repentance and confession.

So all Jesus' death did was atone for original sin?&nbsp; It isn't effective in&nbsp;atoning for&nbsp;future sins?

I ask you why was Abraham a son of God? Because God tested him and he prevailed.&nbsp; He was asked to sacrifice his son and he was going to but God prevented him by saying that he himself would provide the sacrifice which is a really interesting allusion to how God wouldn't let Abraham sacrifice Isaac, but God himself would sacrifice Jesus.

So you're telling us that you believe that Abraham was a son of God becuase God told him to sacrifice his son and Abraham consented?&nbsp; What about the&nbsp;covenant between God and Abraham 7 chapters before.&nbsp; Do you think that God makes covenants with those who are not His?

Anyways, Abraham is a touchy subject because he was about before circumcision was institiuted by God as a sign of the covenant. "You also must agree to keep the covenant with me, both you and your descendants in future generations. You and your descendants must also agree to circumcise every male among you....Any male who has not been circumcised will no longer be considered one of my people, because he has NOT KEPT THE COVENANT WITH ME......(23) on that same day Abraham obeyed God and circumcised his son Ishamael and all the other males in his household......"

You're missing the entire point.&nbsp; Circumcision did not bestow upon Abraham any special faith or grace.&nbsp; That was a sign of being in God's family.&nbsp; A sign.&nbsp; If it was a "touchy subject because he was about before circumcision was instituted by God as a sign of the covenant" then Paul would not have made a point of showing how God's grace came upon Abraham before he was circumcised.&nbsp; Don't you think God could have just said, "Hey, Abraham, we'll make a covenant but you have to be baptized first."&nbsp; One more thing...your words:

circumcision was institiuted by God as a&nbsp;SIGN of the covenant.

Earlier you said:

Baptism is the NT equivalent to circumcision.

You also said:

baptism is an invisible sign which only God can see.

Even you have referred to baptism as a sign.

Does that mean if they believe in God but are not circumcised then they are God's people?

It makes a difference in whether you are being obedient, not in whether you are saved.&nbsp;

It is throughtthe sacrament of Penance that the baptized can be reconciled with God and with the Church

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Neat word "propitiation."&nbsp; You might try looking it up.&nbsp; Christ was the propitiatory sacrifice that appeased God's wrath for our sins.&nbsp; I don't know about you but I have not sinned "according to the likeness of Adam."&nbsp; He had one Law.&nbsp; I've got many.&nbsp; I am liable for Adam's transgressions.&nbsp; That's not my sin.&nbsp; I inherited the penalty.&nbsp; Christ was the propitiation for my sins.&nbsp; That includes original sin and sins I commit today and sins I commit ten years from now.&nbsp; Christ's death was effective.&nbsp; It didn't just pay for my sins.&nbsp; It changed who I am.&nbsp; I'm a whole new creation.&nbsp; Sure, I'll continue to sin.&nbsp; However, I have a whole new motivation:

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;

Just so you know, that's not our love for Him.&nbsp; That's His love for us.&nbsp; If I sin my church cannot reconcile me to God.&nbsp; If I commit a sin and it affects my wife, I cannot reconcile myself to her, nor her to me.&nbsp; There is only one reconciliation.&nbsp; That is the reconciliation made through the propitiation of Christ.&nbsp; If me and my wife get into an argument, the best we can hope for is to agree to disagree (which I hear constantly on this MB).&nbsp; The only way we can be reconciled is to both be reconciled to God.&nbsp; Then by the very nature of being reconciled to the same thing we are reconciled to each other.

human nature has not been totoally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it; suject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death; and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called "concupiscence."

I think this is probably the beginning of the problem with your beliefs.&nbsp; You don't properly understand the depths of depravity that man has inherited so it's only natural that you think you have the power to make a righteous turning in your life toward what you recognize as holy.&nbsp; Let me show you the truth of man:

Romans 3:10-18
As it is written:
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "There is none righteous, no, not one;&nbsp; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.&nbsp; They have all turned aside;&nbsp;They have together become unprofitable;&nbsp;There is none who does good, no, not one."&nbsp; "Their throat is an open tomb;&nbsp;With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips"; "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."&nbsp; "Their feet are swift to shed blood;&nbsp;Destruction and misery are in their ways; And the way of peace they have not known."&nbsp; "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

That's fallen man for ya.&nbsp; And you think someone that fits that description turns to God?&nbsp; One more thing, turning to God, praying to Him in supplication, asking Him to redeem you is your sacrifice to God.&nbsp; Do you know what God thinks of fallen man's sacrifice?&nbsp; I'll show you:

Proverbs 15:8
The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord

It is not until God redeems someone that their actions can even be pleasing to God.&nbsp; Yet you contend that God is so pleased by our repentance and the life that we've lived that He doesn't have any choice but to save us.&nbsp; Listen, even saved, there is a measure of sin in everything we do.&nbsp; The only thing, I repeat THE ONLY THING, that makes us pleasing to God is Jesus' work on the Cross.

Until you understand that you'll never understand why man so desparately needed a Savior.&nbsp; It's called being saved because nothing we can do will merit our salvation.&nbsp; You, on the other hand, contend that God rewards us for our obedient act of recognizing our sinfulness and turning away from it and towards Him.&nbsp; The only reason we turn from our sin is because He regenerates us and gives us a new nature that doesn't desire to sin.&nbsp; Our fallen nature enjoys sinning.

God bless

 

[Outspoken]

I think her posts got enough responce from reform and blackh As for united's post...

"it is only symbolic, not the full gospel..."

I disagree, I think it is more then symbolic. If it is just symbolic there is no need for the ritual at all, and in the bible it clearly says it should be done.

 

[Julie]

Does Baptism Save?

It would see so in the NIV if we look at Acts 8.

NIV

Acts 8

34The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.
© Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
All rights reserved worldwide

Verse 37 if you haven't noticed it missing, taking away the eunuchs salvation.

Here is how it reads in the KJV:

Acts8

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

 

[cthoma11]

Originally posted by Julie
Does Baptism Save?

It would see so in the NIV if we look at Acts 8.

NIV

Acts 8

34The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.
© Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
All rights reserved worldwide

Verse 37 if you haven't noticed it missing, taking away the eunuchs salvation.

Here is how it reads in the KJV:

Acts8

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Julie,

You will have to explain how taking away verse 37 which only appears in late manuscripts, not early, and therefore probably wasn't part of the original manuscript, takes away the implication of salvation. And further how it&nbsp;implies that the baptism causes the salvation.

Here is a summary:&nbsp;
34 Eunuch asks Philip to explain the scriptiures
35 Philip explains scriptures and gospel&nbsp;
36 Eunuch asks to be baptized.

• Implied is that the Eunuch believes, remember just ONE verse prior he is explaining the gospel to him, or did you forget?
• Do you think Philip maybe forgot to tell the Eunuch about the belief?
• Do you think that unless the conversation is repeated verbatum that Philip only talked about baptism?
• Do you see any mention that because he is baptized he is saved?

37 Added by KJV in violation of the warning in Rev 22:19
38 Philip baptizes Eunuch
39 Philip taken away; Eunuch happy
40 Philip continues preaching and witnessing elsewhere&nbsp;

You seem to be seeing something that I have missed. Perhaps you can explain it to me.

I know from your posts that you are a KJV only person, but&nbsp;the KJV is not the standard to judge New Testament translations by, it is the Greek Manuscripts.

&nbsp;

 

[kern]

Originally posted by new2calvin
so the water saves??? i thought God did that?

Catholic belief is that God removes the original sin through the baptism. It's not the water itself that does anything; it's the power of God working through the sacrament.

I'm sure you do not agree with it, but please don't misunderstand it -- it is PURELY by God's grace that baptism does anything for you. We do not see this as doing "works" (not "works" in the sense that Paul was talking about) to "earn" God's grace, but I know you feel differently. In that sense it's a "symbol", but it's a symbol that Christ felt was vitally important to the believer.

Catholicism has infant baptism, but if you turn away from God after when you are then you are not saved simply because of your infant baptism.

Perhaps later I will page through the Catechism and see if I can find some relevant quotes. But there are bound to be significant differences between Catholic teaching and your approach.

-Chris