does baptism save debate

[ViaCrucis]

The great multitude receive this promise--Matt 5:5--Psalm 37:9-11,29)
Yes standing before the throne on earth--The throne will be ruling all of creation at that point. No matter where one stands they will be before the throne. Gods kingdom rule will be the only ruling power( Dan 2:44)
Prov 2:21-22--Matt 24:22--says they do not leave the earth.
THe reason the little flock( Luke 12:32) is called something different from the great multitude=[ separate promise. They are one flock, 2 different covenants. The little flock are promised heaven. The great multitude is promised earth.

No where does the text say the 144,000 (which 144,000? There are two 144,000's mentioned in the Apocalypse) is "the little flock", and no where does it say they "go to heaven". That's no where to be seen in Scripture.

No where does the text say the multitude before God's throne are on earth, the language is consistent with other passages such as Revelation 6 which describes the martyrs before God's altar, and throughout Scripture which describes angels and heavenly creatures around God's heavenly throne.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[kjw47]

No where does the text say the 144,000 (which 144,000? There are two 144,000's mentioned in the Apocalypse) is "the little flock", and no where does it say they "go to heaven". That's no where to be seen in Scripture.

No where does the text say the multitude before God's throne are on earth, the language is consistent with other passages such as Revelation 6 which describes the martyrs before God's altar, and throughout Scripture which describes angels and heavenly creatures around God's heavenly throne.

-CryptoLutheran

Wow, you need new teachers. Even all in darkness can see only the 144,000 are bought from the earth to heaven-Rev 14:3--obviously the little flock. Your teachers are blind guides--Run from them.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Wow, you need new teachers. Even all in darkness can see only the 144,000 are bought from the earth to heaven-Rev 14:3--obviously the little flock. Your teachers are blind guides--Run from them.

I'm going to take this as an admittance that you are either unable or unwilling to defend your position.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[kjw47]

I'm going to take this as an admittance that you are either unable or unwilling to defend your position.

-CryptoLutheran

I shared rev 14:3--It is clear--They are bought from the earth--obviously to heaven. How else can they sit on thrones beside Jesus on his throne in heaven?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I shared rev 14:3--It is clear--They are bought from the earth--obviously to heaven. How else can they sit on thrones beside Jesus on his throne in heaven?

Didn't you just argue that the multitude in Revelation 7 are around God's throne on earth?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[kjw47]

Didn't you just argue that the multitude in Revelation 7 are around God's throne on earth?

-CryptoLutheran

No, I said no matter where one is standing at that point in time, on earth, the moon, or heaven, they stand before the throne. It will be the only ruling power in existence of all creation( Daniel 2:44)--The great multitude will be brought through on the earth-Prov 2:21-22-- Matt 24:22) Jesus gave them this promise--Matt 5:5, Psalm 37:9-11,29) the Earth--Eden translates-paradise.

 

[ViaCrucis]

No, I said no matter where one is standing at that point in time, on earth, the moon, or heaven, they stand before the throne. It will be the only ruling power in existence of all creation( Daniel 2:44)--The great multitude will be brought through on the earth-Prov 2:21-22-- Matt 24:22) Jesus gave them this promise--Matt 5:5, Psalm 37:9-11,29) the Earth--Eden translates-paradise.

So why are the 144,000 in Revelation 14 in heaven and not on earth?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[kjw47]

So why are the 144,000 in Revelation 14 in heaven and not on earth?

-CryptoLutheran

The 144,000 are the only ones bought* Rev 14:3) from the earth to heaven--This is the little flock( Luke 12:32)--the anointed, the bride of Christ.

 

[Cuddles333]

Good grief you two. If one is not capable of digesting the milk off the New Testament (such as water baptism...... the actual subject of this thread, by the way) it is impossible for him/her to digest the meat of the more complex, found in the book of Revelation.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The 144,000 are the only ones bought* Rev 14:3) from the earth to heaven--This is the little flock( Luke 12:32)--the anointed, the bride of Christ.

Except, and I can't stress this enough, the text does not say this.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[kjw47]

Good grief you two. If one is not capable of digesting the milk off the New Testament (such as water baptism...... the actual subject of this thread, by the way) it is impossible for him/her to digest the meat of the more complex, found in the book of Revelation.

Baptism does not save. That is but one of many requirements on the mortals part. One must do-ALL- of them. It is Gods will( Matt 7:21)

 

[kjw47]

Except, and I can't stress this enough, the text does not say this.

-CryptoLutheran

Why did your teachers tell you why God separated the one flock into 2 separate covenants? The little flock to heaven and the great multitude to stay on earth.
Baptism does not save one--Doing every requirement God set forth for mortals is what gets one saved.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why did your teachers tell you why God separated the one flock into 2 separate covenants? The little flock to heaven and the great multitude to stay on earth.
Baptism does not save one--Doing every requirement God set forth for mortals is what gets one saved.

Why do you believe the flocks have two separate covenants? Why do you believe one is for heaven and the other earth? You keep insisting this is the case, but don't actually explain why. You keep talking about my teachers, but thus far all I've been doing is pointing to the text.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[lee11]

hi

1, the born again experience or regeneration of ones spirit is for the INSIDE of the body to repent confess your sins and ask for forgiveness is to be reconciled back to God, hence salvation.

2, water baptism is for the OUTSIDE of the body it is when people decide to get baptised as an outward sign to people of their repentance there family and friends etc are normally invited to witness the event and celebrate with them.

They are fully immersed under the water which is symbolical of Jesus being buried and resurrected a person is burying there previous life style and arising a new person in Christ Jesus.

3, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is to fully equip the believer for ministry or ministering.

Jesus never preached the good news until he was baptised, received the Holy Spirit, and rejected the temptations of the devil as Adam and Eve had succumbed to the devils temptations and were subject to a sinful nature sickness and then death and also lost there dominion which was transferred to satan

Jesus resisted the temptations of the devil over come him on the cross and stripped him of his power and when he was resurrected transferred dominion and authority back to the members in the body of Christ.

Peace

 

[kjw47]

Why do you believe the flocks have two separate covenants? Why do you believe one is for heaven and the other earth? You keep insisting this is the case, but don't actually explain why. You keep talking about my teachers, but thus far all I've been doing is pointing to the text.

-CryptoLutheran

All who know the bible knows these facts
1) There is one flock under God
2) yet 2 groups mentioned--The little flock and the great multitude-- At Rev 14:3 clearly teaches-144,000 are bought from the earth--- The great multitude cannot be numbered, proving the little flock is the 144,000. These are promised heaven, to rule as kings and priests( Rev 1:6) alongside Jesus on thrones.(Rev 20:6)-- This is Jesus' bride, the anointed--they have a separate covenant, that is why the separation of the two groups named, yet one flock.

 

[TheSeabass]

This is just my private thread to watch this interesting debate. Youtube will not play on my browser, but the embedded videos on this forum will play in my browser

It is very evident from the bible that water baptism saves. It is the means God has chosen to save men therefore it has been commanded to man to be water baptized:

Mt 28:19,20 "Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned."

Acts 2:38 "And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Rom 6:3-5 "Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;"

1 Cor 1:12-13 "Now this I mean, that each one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized into the name of Paul?"

Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ."

Colossians 2:11-12 "in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead."

1 Peter 3:21 "which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;"

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Ephesians 4:5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism,"

By the time Paul penned his Ephesian epistle, there was one baptism that is in effect now in the present Christian dispensation. In an attempt to get around the necessity of water baptism in being save, some will create other baptism(s) that men are to be baptized with today. In my opinion, Ephesians 4:4-5 are two of the most unbelieved verses in the bible by those that say they are believers.


====================================

I have also seen it be erroneously argued that water baptism is a work that man does and man is trying to merit/earn his salvation by doing works. This is faulty in that God is the One doing the work of removing the body of sins when a person submits himself to God in baptism. It also ignores the fact that salvation is a free gift with conditions and meeting the conditions, as in passively submitting to God in baptism, does not, cannot earn the free gift.

 

[lee11]

It is very evident from the bible that water baptism saves. It is the means God has chosen to save men therefore it has been commanded to man to be water baptized:

Mt 28:19,20 "Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned."

Acts 2:38 "And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Rom 6:3-5 "Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;"

1 Cor 1:12-13 "Now this I mean, that each one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized into the name of Paul?"

Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ."

Colossians 2:11-12 "in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead."

1 Peter 3:21 "which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;"

====================================

Ephesians 4:5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism,"

By the time Paul penned his Ephesian epistle, there was one baptism that is in effect now in the present Christian dispensation. In an attempt to get around the necessity of water baptism in being save, some will create other baptism(s) that men are to be baptized with today. In my opinion, Ephesians 4:4-5 are two of the most unbelieved verses in the bible by those that say they are believers.


====================================

I have also seen it be erroneously argued that water baptism is a work that man does and man is trying to merit/earn his salvation by doing works. This is faulty in that God is the One doing the work of removing the body of sins when a person submits himself to God in baptism. It also ignores the fact that salvation is a free gift with conditions and meeting the conditions, as in passively submitting to God in baptism, does not, cannot earn the free gift.

hi

whats your understanding on all these verses in relation to salvation.

he that believes shall be saved

he that is baptised shall be saved

did the thief on the cross get saved when jesus said you shall be in paradise with me

thx

 

[Hillsage]

Ephesians 4:5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism,"

By the time Paul penned his Ephesian epistle, there was one baptism that is in effect now in the present Christian dispensation. In an attempt to get around the necessity of water baptism in being save, some will create other baptism(s) that men are to be baptized with today. In my opinion, Ephesians 4:4-5 are two of the most unbelieved verses in the bible by those that say they are believers.

Your 'one baptism' understanding of Ephesians 4 is like so many Christians, so you're certainly not alone in it. The problem is it falls short, in the light of scripture. Indeed I struggled with it for many years as I sought the truth that only comes from the Spirit of truth when we attempt to untangle the doctrines which we are warned about in scripture.

MAT 15:9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'"

The following verse was written a few years after your Ephesians quote above. It speaks of what is required to go on to maturity/perfection after one has a foundational understanding of the BASIC ("elementary/principle") doctrines of Christ.


HEB 6:1 Therefore leaving the (elementary) principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection (maturity); not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms,

As you can plainly see, multiple baptisms are the 'basic/fundamental/elementary teaching we should be receiving in the church.

 

[TheSeabass]

hi

whats your understanding on all these verses in relation to salvation.

he that believes shall be saved

he that is baptised shall be saved

did the thief on the cross get saved when jesus said you shall be in paradise with me

thx

---Jesus said he that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved. The purpose of the conjunction "and" is that it ties belief to baptism making them inseparable where both are of equal importance and necessity to salvation.

---the thief was told he would be in paradise that day, but he is not an example of NT gospel salvation, Hebrews 9:16-17.

 

[lee11]

---Jesus said he that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved. The purpose of the conjunction "and" is that it ties belief to baptism making them inseparable where both are of equal importance and necessity to salvation.

---the thief was told he would be in paradise that day, but he is not an example of NT gospel salvation, Hebrews 9:16-17.

hi

thx for that.

can a person be saved by just believing on Jesus without water baptism?

Example John 1.12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

thx