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Featured does baptism save debate

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by PeterDona, Nov 1, 2017.

  1. PeterDona

    PeterDona Active Member Supporter

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    This is just my private thread to watch this interesting debate. Youtube will not play on my browser, but the embedded videos on this forum will play in my browser :)
     
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  2. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Q: Is ritual water baptism of infants necessary for their salvation?
    A: No. No clear Biblical command or doctrine. TRADITION ONLY!

    Q2: Are all true believers SPIRITUALLY BAPTIZED?
    A2: YES!

    1 Corinthians 12:13(NASB)
    13 For by one (God the Holy) Spirit we were all baptized into one body, ("Body of Christ")
    whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free,
    and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

    Baptism isn't a work Man or his assemblies do.

    Spiritual Baptism is a work God does when your spirit changes at salvation. (John 3 explained in Ephesians 2)

    Ritual water baptism symbolizes being immersed dirty (sinful) and coming up cleansed (forgiven).
     
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  3. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    IMO nothing that is commanded of someone else would invalidate MY salvation.

    Baptism is commanded to be done by the evangelist, not the new believer.
     
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    On the other hand, I cannot think of a single church which insists that it IS necessary for an infant's salvation.
     
  5. Dave G.

    Dave G. Well-Known Member

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    Isn't infant baptism within the Anglican church more a declaration that the child will be brought up in the faith ? My wife was Anglican ( actually Episcopalian) in our early years of marriage and that was her belief. She insisted the two children we had together ( now adults) be baptized, I had no objection.
     
  6. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Not exactly. There is a promise made by the sponsors that the child will be raised in the faith, but the sacrament is also believed to forgive sin and impart grace, much like the RC view.

    It's a mistake, however, to think that this very important sacrament that is the indelible initiation into the Christian faith, the family of God, is absolutely "necessary for salvation."

    Most mainline Christian denominations do allow that strange circumstances which might prevent someone, of any age, from being baptized do not preclude such a person from being saved so long as he sincerely repents of his sin and by faith accepts the Lord as God and his personal Savior.
     
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  7. Dave G.

    Dave G. Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the clarification.
     
  8. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Necessary? Yes.
    Absolutely necessary? No.

    God is perfectly capable of saving outside of the normative means He has established. And the history of the Church is replete of examples of people who were deprived of being able to be baptized by extraordinary circumstances--and to suggest that salvation is impossible for them because of circumstances beyond their control is to deny the power of grace. We should not think in terms of God putting barriers in place to prevent people from being saved, it's just the opposite--God is in the business of saving, and desires everyone to be saved, and we should be confident that He is able to do what He so wills. But to the Church we have been commissioned to preach the Gospel and to baptize, and to us is revealed that through God's Word and Sacraments He acts to save us. Thus we can speak authoritatively where God has spoken authoritatively, and we ought to not speak beyond what is revealed. God is, after all, "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  9. kjw47

    kjw47 New Member

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    Jesus was clear at Matthew 10:22-- Those who endure till the end( death or Har-mageddon) will be saved. None living have done that. One must battle everyday living now to do Jesus' Fathers will( Matt 7:21) in a satan ruled system of things. It will be the toughest thing one can ever accomplish.
    Jesus said to be no part of this world--99% must fit in. I believe satan beat 99% living now, centuries ago, after my years of study.
     
  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    People often read this verse as though it's a warning to those who are wavering. Be sure to endure, etc.

    It's actually a statement of fact, and the same applies to most of John 7.

    Those who are saved do the following...and those who are not saved live this other way instead and will get what they deserve. There's no reason to think that the scripture is saying "IF you choose to do X, then, but IF you decide to do Z instead, this is what you'll get."
     
  11. PeterDona

    PeterDona Active Member Supporter

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    For those who enjoy the debate on child baptism, I add a debate here. For me it is just interesting to see what scriptures one part or the other will bring up. all though these 2 guys are very skilled and well trained, I hope it is possible to follow them.

     
  12. kjw47

    kjw47 New Member

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    Reality--According to that verse--0 are saved until they endure until the end. Its only mortals telling others they are saved now. Its not what the bible teaches.
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I know that people think that's an important point to make--especially if it's part of a faith vs works discussion or something like that. I don't see it that way because when people say that they've been saved or ask if you've been saved, what they mean is that you have been assured of your salvation thanks to something that happened with you (born again, conversion experience, that is). No one is saved in the ultimate sense until they pass through the pearly gates.
     
  14. kjw47

    kjw47 New Member

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    Only the little flock( Luke 12:32) are promised heaven.These are the anointed, the bride of Christ= 144,000-Rev 14:3-- No where in the bible is the great multitude promised heaven-- Jesus gave them this promise( Matt 5:5)--Happy are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. The promise of the OT as well at Psalm 37:9-11, verse 29- The righteous themselves will possess the earth and reside forever upon it.
     
  15. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Faith is always associated with a willingness to submit to God's will, but it is never the act of submitting to God's will that saves us, but rather we are saved by the faith that requires us to submit, and getting baptized is submitting.
     
  16. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Sorry, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness and I don't want to enter into a discussion of Jehovah's Witness theology, either. My understanding is that this is not a forum that permits it, although Christianity and World Religion does.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  17. PeterDona

    PeterDona Active Member Supporter

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    Well, I think that the Church of Christ side in the debate bring out a really interesting point with this scripture Galatians 3:26-27 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ".
    So from this passage I would believe that baptism is part of that faith that make you into a child of God.
    While I can understand your use of the word submit in this context, and that I believe that sometimes the relation with God feels like a submission, I would say that in the case of baptism it is more like, this is the step by which I enter into the covenant with God.
    Did you watch the debate?
     
  18. kjw47

    kjw47 New Member

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    Are you kidding--Its bible reality, yes and that is why the JW teachers teach truth on the matter.
    Baptism does not save--Living ones days to do Jesus Fathers will is what gets one saved.( Matt 7:21)--baptism is one piece.
     
  19. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Nobody spends eternity "in heaven". The Christian hope is resurrection and life in the Age to Come in renewed creation.

    The 144,000 are not "the little flock" who alone "go to heaven".

    What you're teaching here sounds an awful lot like what the JW's believe.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  20. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The Bible very much speaks of salvation in the past tense.

    "...you have been saved..." (Ephesians 2:8)
    "He saved us..." (Titus 3:5)

    That it also speaks of it in the present tense and the future tense doesn't nullify that it is also past tense.

    God has saved us.
    God is saving us.
    God will save us.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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