Does anyone know Greek grammatical terms?

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

What does it mean when a word (a pronoun) is either described as masculine or feminine?

 

[Doug Melven]

What does it mean when a word (a pronoun) is either described as masculine or feminine?

@Der Alter would probably know.

 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

Well what I'm wondering is if it automatically denotes the sex of a person (if it's referring to that)

I'm trying to nail down a belief that I've had for quite a while and that's on the question of female Pastors. Everything else I've studied makes it clear to me. My last stop in searching the scriptures is the Greek and that will make things concrete.

 

[sunlover1]

Well what I'm wondering is if it automatically denotes the sex of a person (if it's referring to that)

I'm trying to nail down a belief that I've had for quite a while and that's on the question of female Pastors. Everything else I've studied makes it clear to me. My last stop in searching the scriptures is the Greek and that will make things concrete.

Greek Grammar nouns

 

[sfs]

Greek Grammar nouns

Yeah, that covers it. Gender is a grammatical category, not a biological one. Nouns for males are usually masculine and nouns for females are usually feminine, but there are exceptions. Gender is a common feature of Indo-European languages.

 

[Radagast]

Well what I'm wondering is if it automatically denotes the sex of a person (if it's referring to that)

Not necessarily. If there is a mixed group of men and women, a masculine plural pronoun will be used, for example.

To get more specific than that, you'd need to look at actual Greek passages.

 

[Hank77]

Fun fact:

Back in the day, English did use grammatical gender. Today, we borrow certain words with different spellings to denote female or male, like fiancé vs. fiancée, but in Old English (anyone who read Beowulf for English class is now cringing), grammatical gender was the norm – that is, nouns were grouped by gender and the ending of the word, along with the article and pronoun, differed according to whether the noun was masculine, feminine, or neuter. For example, “the moon” in Old English is “se mona” because “mona” is the masculine noun and “se” is the masculine form of “the.” You’d also use the male pronoun to refer back to the “mona.”
He, She, It: The Long-Forgotten Grammatical Gender of English | Smartling

 

[bcbsr]

What does it mean when a word (a pronoun) is either described as masculine or feminine?

Greek along with Latin and some other European languages associate word with gender, but rather arbitrary. And by the way, there are 3 genders in such gammar. Masculine, Feminine, and Neuter. The only usefulness for these is that the thinks like the gender of participles have to match the gender of the noun or pronoun they're associated with.

An example would be Eph 2:8 "it is the gift of God", what does "it" refer to. Turns about "it" is in the neuter, whereas "faith" is feminine, so contrary to many who misinterpret this verse to prove falsely that faith is a gift, "it" does not refer to "faith".

 

[Radagast]

An example would be Eph 2:8 "it is the gift of God", what does "it" refer to. Turns about "it" is in the neuter, whereas "faith" is feminine, so contrary to many who misinterpret this verse to prove falsely that faith is a gift, "it" does not refer to "faith".

You are incorrect. The word "it" does not actually appear in the Greek at all. The last part of the verse reads:

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι (for by grace you have been saved) διὰ πίστεως (through faith); καὶ τοῦτο (and this) οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν (not from you all), θεοῦ (of God) τὸ δῶρον (the gift).

The word "this" is indeed in the neuter, probably because it refers to the entire first part of the verse. This is still saying that faith is a gift.

 

[Hank77]

You are incorrect. The word "it" does not actually appear in the Greek at all. The last part of the verse reads:

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι (for by grace you have been saved) διὰ πίστεως (through faith); καὶ τοῦτο (and this) οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν (not from you all), θεοῦ (of God) τὸ δῶρον (the gift).

The word "this" is indeed in the neuter, probably because it refers to the entire first part of the verse. This is still saying that faith is a gift.

Could it be neuter because the gift is being 'saved' and verbs aren't gendered.

By grace ye are saved, through faith, and not of yourselves, it is a gift from God, not of works least any man should boast.

 

[bcbsr]

You are incorrect. The word "it" does not actually appear in the Greek at all. The last part of the verse reads:

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι (for by grace you have been saved) διὰ πίστεως (through faith); καὶ τοῦτο (and this) οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν (not from you all), θεοῦ (of God) τὸ δῶρον (the gift).

The word "this" is indeed in the neuter, probably because it refers to the entire first part of the verse. This is still saying that faith is a gift.

You're mistaken. "It" is the translation used in the NKJV. There are others that translate it "this". And you are also mistaken about "it" or "this" referring to faith, for the reason I specified. Rather the gift is being saved by grace through faith.

Furthermore concerning the word "gift", there are two words most commonly used for "gift" in the New Testament. "dorea" emphasizes the freeness of a gift, while "doron" is used for sacrificial offerings. It is this second that Paul is using, alluding to the sacrificial offering God made through Christ's atoning work on the cross. Salvation is the sacrificial offering of God, as opposed to being obtained by one's own works. He speaks extensively of this in Romans and Galatians, contrasting the righteousness obtained through faith in Christ as opposed to the righteousness of the law which is obtained through one's works, being a performance-based salvation concept.

 

[Radagast]

You're mistaken. "It" is the translation used in the NKJV.

No, I'm not mistaken. There is no "it" in the Greek. See for yourself: τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι (for by grace you have been saved) διὰ πίστεως (through faith); καὶ τοῦτο (and this) οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν (not from you all), θεοῦ (of God) τὸ δῶρον (the gift).

In fact, this is why "it is" is italicised in the NKJV: because those words don't occur in the Greek.

It sounds to me like you read something that you misunderstood.

Furthermore concerning the word "gift", there are two words most commonly used for "gift" in the New Testament. "dorea" emphasizes the freeness of a gift, while "doron" is used for sacrificial offerings.

Says who?

I don't think you can maintain that kind of difference between δῶρον, δωρεά, or even δώρημα. Here Paul uses δῶρον. In 2 Corinthians 9:15 (Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift!), Paul uses δωρεά. They mean the same.

 

[bcbsr]

No, I'm not mistaken. There is no "it" in the Greek. See for yourself: τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι (for by grace you have been saved) διὰ πίστεως (through faith); καὶ τοῦτο (and this) οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν (not from you all), θεοῦ (of God) τὸ δῶρον (the gift).

In fact, this is why "it is" is italicised in the NKJV: because those words don't occur in the Greek.

It sounds to me like you read something that you misunderstood.



Says who?

I don't think you can maintain that kind of difference between δῶρον, δωρεά, or even δώρημα. Here Paul uses δῶρον. In 2 Corinthians 9:15 (Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift!), Paul uses δωρεά. They mean the same.

You're wrong again. "This" touto is what "it is" referring to. Touto is neuter where as "faith" is feminine. My point stands.

And no, 2Cor 9:15 doesn't use the word "doron", which is neuter. It uses a different word, a feminine word. You didn't even get the gender right!

 

[sfs]

"Interpreters have differed on the precise reference of 'this'. If the Greek pronoun were feminine, agreeing in gender with 'faith', then the reference to faith would be plain. . . But the pronoun is neuter, and not not necessarily refer to faith. Even so, it may refer generally to faith: 'the difference of gender is not fatal to such a view' (J. A. Robinson). That faith is referred to has been the view of many exegetes. . . This particular word for 'gift' (dōron), common as it is, does not appear elsewhere in the Pauline corpus; other words with much the same meaning are used to denote God's git of righteousness and life in Christ (Rom. 5:15-17; 6:23). It is probably best to understand 'and this' as referring to salvation as a whole, not excluding the faith by which it is received." (from F.F. Bruce's commentary on Colossians, Philemon and Ephesians).

And no, 2Cor 9:15 doesn't use the word "doron", which is neuter. It uses a different word

Which is what Radagast said.

 

[bcbsr]

"Interpreters have differed on the precise reference of 'this'. If the Greek pronoun were feminine, agreeing in gender with 'faith', then the reference to faith would be plain. . . But the pronoun is neuter, and not not necessarily refer to faith. Even so, it may refer generally to faith: 'the difference of gender is not fatal to such a view' (J. A. Robinson). That faith is referred to has been the view of many exegetes. . . This particular word for 'gift' (dōron), common as it is, does not appear elsewhere in the Pauline corpus; other words with much the same meaning are used to denote God's git of righteousness and life in Christ (Rom. 5:15-17; 6:23). It is probably best to understand 'and this' as referring to salvation as a whole, not excluding the faith by which it is received." (from F.F. Bruce's commentary on Colossians, Philemon and Ephesians).


Which is what Radagast said.

You mention Robinson. Here's what he says, "And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pistiv (feminine) or to cariv (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dwron) and not the result of our work."

As for Radagast he says concerning "gift" - "they mean the same", which is simply an hypothesis on his part. There's a reason why that Paul chose a certain word, which he only uses here, versus a different word. So why did he chose "doron" over "dorea", where elsewhere he commonly uses? BECAUSE THE MEANING IS DIFFERENT!

 

[Radagast]

You're wrong again. "This" touto is what "it is" referring to.

No, the καὶ τοῦτο is translated "and this" in the ESV or "and that" in the NKJV.

Please stop this; you obviously don't know Greek, and you're just embarrassing yourself.

 

[Radagast]

And no, 2Cor 9:15 doesn't use the word "doron", which is neuter. It uses a different word, a feminine word.

Yes, that is what I said (δωρεά is indeed a feminine noun).

You didn't even get the gender right!

Please read what people say instead of just throwing abuse around.

I'm putting you on ignore. Conversation is obviously pointless.