Does anyone have any hope of changing peoples minds about Trump?

[Under One King]

It's painfully obvious. An absolute right to anything would lead to anarchy.
Ringo

The rights someone has end when they impose on the rights of another. Deprogramming is imposing on the rights of another.

 

[Bobber]

The assumption is that both you and that other person are able to agree on an undeniable set of facts that third/forth and fifth parties (or that physical evidence) can confirm as necessary.

When soldiers were kidnapped by the Japanese or Vietcong and brainwashed into falling for their cause, would it have been appropriate for the US army to attempt to deprogram them from brainwashing?

What about Stolkholm Syndrome?

And might I ask exactly what do you mean by deprogram people? Tell us in your opinion what that should involved.

 

[Under One King]

The first thing you do when dealing with the kind of people Ringo referred to is not as you say, to try and convince them to change their minds.
Before you attempt that you first need to try and convince them to seek psychiatric help.

But they might think you are the one who needs the help.

 

[Under One King]

Oh, I very much have the right to force them to change in my above example, and if you don't think the police do, you would be completely wrong.

You may be misunderstanding me. I'm not saying they have the right to actually do that. Obviously, they don't. If they do, they get the law thrown at them, because murder is wrong. But they have the right to choose to believe that it's okay to do. You can't force people to make choices. You can, but it's not right. What's the point of a choice if you can't even choose? I hope you understand what I'm trying to say here, even if you don't agree.

 

[Halbhh]

Trump supporters find me tedious but I have not given up hope I am just trying to work out how to get a conversation started.

You don't have to tho -- people change their own minds, as they learn more things. Also, I've learned another helpful thing, that when someone argues contentiously with someone, it tends to only make them get defensive and find ways to justify and rationalize, which is getting stuck (in that viewpoint, making it less open to seeing clearly). We don't want anyone to get stuck, therefore I try not to participate in contentiousness if the argument seems contentious. Ideally I think we'd ask questions and listen a lot, instead of arguing. If someone can express their view without getting defensive, then that expressing allows them to get unstuck.

 

[Under One King]

The assumption is that both you and that other person are able to agree on an undeniable set of facts that third/forth and fifth parties (or that physical evidence) can confirm as necessary.

When soldiers were kidnapped by the Japanese or Vietcong and brainwashed into falling for their cause, would it have been appropriate for the US army to attempt to deprogram them from brainwashing?

What about Stolkholm Syndrome?

No, that assumption is not necessary. It makes it more difficult, but it is not necessary.
Again, it depends on what your calling deprogramming. If it involves force, then it is wrong. God gives us a choice, and we should always give each other a choice.

 

[Under One King]

Yes psychiatric help. Because they have been manipulated.

But maybe you're the one actually being manipulated. How would you know?

 

[rambot]

But maybe you're the one actually being manipulated. How would you know?

Uh.. I'm watching Trump. I know he's a liar. I'm not being manipulated.

How do you know you are not being manipulated?

 

[rambot]

No, that assumption is not necessary. It makes it more difficult, but it is not necessary.

No. It is necessary. If you can't find common ground in reality, then there's no good in finding common ground in fantasy land.

 

[rambot]

And might I ask exactly what do you mean by deprogram people? Tell us in your opinion what that should involved.

To be clear, I'm not necessarily keen on "deprogramming" the way it has been presented in terms of it being forceful.

 

[rambot]

Videos only show small parts.

Yes. The parts I described.

Video evidence is still better than your theoretical evidence you have presented to support your point.

 

[rambot]

And what is exit counseling?

similar. Usually done by a "former member". Subject is willing.

That's the start. Look it up! It's in the wikki page for deprogramming.

 

[Bobber]

You don't have to tho -- people change their own minds, as they learn more things. Also, I've learned another helpful thing, that when someone argues contentiously with someone, it tends to only make them get defensive and find ways to justify and rationalize, which is getting stuck (in that viewpoint, making it less open to seeing clearly). We don't want anyone to get stuck, therefore I try not to participate in contentiousness if the argument seems contentious. Ideally I think we'd ask questions and listen a lot, instead of arguing. If someone can express their view without getting defensive, then that expressing allows them to get unstuck.

As the saying goes a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

 

[Under One King]

Uh.. I'm watching Trump. I know he's a liar. I'm not being manipulated.

How do you know you are not being manipulated?

I'm not implying you could be being manipulated by Trump. What if you're being manipulated by others?

 

[Under One King]

No. It is necessary. If you can't find common ground in reality, then there's no good in finding common ground in fantasy land.

Wrong. It isn't necessary.

 

[Under One King]

To be clear, I'm not necessarily keen on "deprogramming" the way it has been presented in terms of it being forceful.

Yet you won't say what you mean by deprogramming.

 

[Under One King]

Yes. The parts I described.

Video evidence is still better than your theoretical evidence you have presented to support your point.

And which point was that?

 

[Under One King]

similar. Usually don't be a "former member". Subject is willing.

That's the start. Look it up! It's in the wikki page for deprogramming.

Oh, hard for you to explain?

 

[Ringo84]

The rights someone has end when they impose on the rights of another. Deprogramming is imposing on the rights of another.

When someone is in a dangerous cult, it's not "imposing" on their right to try to pull them out of it.
Ringo

 

[Under One King]

When someone is in a dangerous cult, it's not "imposing" on their right to try to pull them out of it.
Ringo

It is if you force them.