Does Anti-Zionism Equate to Anti-Semitism?

Does Anti-Zionism equate to Anti-Semitism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 40.0%
  • No

    Votes: 3 60.0%

  • Total voters
    5

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
55,182
8,132
US
✟1,096,787.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Those are all likely Satmars and members of the extreme ultra-Orthodox group Neturei Karta.

I don't necessarily make out extremism to be such a bad thing.

(CLV) Re 3:16
Thus, seeing that you are indifferent, and are neither zealous nor cool, I am about to spew you out of My mouth.

What do you base your speculation on?

They are only one sect within worldwide Judaism. Are you saying that only anti-Zionist Jews are Torah observant?

Here is what I responded to.

The Orthodox that are not Zionists are very few.

I repeat:

Can you provide a source to support this assertion?

Let's not shift the argument until we have this resolved.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,459
3,771
Eretz
✟317,562.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

Yusuphhai

Messianic Arabic-Semitic Chinese
Oct 19, 2005
5,036
1,867
51
Beijing China
✟170,231.00
Country
China
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I have talked with a Palestine Christian. He is not a Zionist, but maybe is also not an Anti-Zionist. He likes to worship with Messianic Jews in Israel. He called himself a Palestine citizen, he declared the unfair or unconcerned treatment by Palestine Muslim and Israel. And amazingly he pointed directly Mohamad was a Liar.

This question would relate to elder time. Was Ishmael or Esau an Anti-Zionist or Anti-Semitism? In our time, is Arabic Israelite Anti-Zionist or Anti-Semitist? Why Arab is against Shem? For Islam or Christianity? If the descendants of Shem have nothing to do with Islam and Christianity, certainly they have nothing to do with Anti-Semitism of Islam and Christianity. Anti-Zionism is more a political and military conception, while Anti-Semitism is more a racial and religious conception.

I have Arabic blood linage. I think the benefits of the cooperation between Jewish and Arab are much more than abomination. The nation Arab need not be combined with Islam. Even if in the shadow of Islam temporarily, Israeli Arab can keep friendship with Jewish, as Abrahamic Oriental descendants of Keturah does. Many Jewish are researching Oriental Buddhism which has relationship with Abrahamic Oriental descendants. The friendship between Jewish and Oriental is not so difficult.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: HARK!
Upvote 0

GedaliahMaegil

Messianic Ger Toshav - not christian
Jun 19, 2020
369
158
California
Visit site
✟71,385.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I have talked with a Palestine Christian. He is not a Zionist, but maybe is also not an Anti-Zionist. He likes to worship with Messianic Jews in Israel. He called himself a Palestine citizen, he declared the unfair or unconcerned treatment by Palestine Muslim and Israel. And amazingly he pointed directly Mohamad was a Liar.

Are you saying that he in unconcerned with Zionist or anti-Zionist efforts? Eventually, he's going to land on one side of the fence, because a balancing act is hard to maintain over time.

This question would relate to elder time. Was Ishmael or Esau an Anti-Zionist or Anti-Semitism?

As far as Yisma`el is concerned, yes. In fact, he is against every man, as HaShem Himself declares (cf. B`resheet 16). As far as Esav is concerned, he reconciled with Ya`akov (cf. B'resheet 33). Esav's descendants, however, were treacherous towards the children of Yisra`el (cf. Bamidmar 20, Shof`tim 11, Yirme`yahu 49, Tehillah 83, etc.).

In our time, is Arabic Israelite Anti-Zionist or Anti-Semitist?

You mean an Arab living peacefully in Yisra`el, while not calling for the expulsion or murder of Jews? Obviously not.

Why Arab is against Shem? For Islam or Christianity? If the descendants of Shem have nothing to do with Islam and Christianity, certainly they have nothing to do with Anti-Semitism of Islam and Christianity.

Antisemitism and anti-Zionism has specific targets, not in reference to those having kinship with Shem in a general sense. We know what these vile forms of hatred are, and throwing etymology into the mix blindly is only a non-sequitur. It's always been about hating Jews.

Anti-Zionism is more a political and military conception, while Anti-Semitism is more a racial and religious conception.

Both are inexorably tied together. They have Biblical precedent, which is clearly shown in the Scriptures. Jews are claiming their birthright and HaShem has not interposed, as He did when those who were not the Remnant arrogantly carried on as if HaShem's judgement didn't apply to them, as recorded in the prophecy given to Y`chez`qel.

I have Arabic blood linage. I think the benefits of the cooperation between Jewish and Arab are much more than abomination. The nation Arab need not be combined with Islam.

There is a Biblical path for those peoples, then. They can either go the way of Ruth or otherwise resolve to dwell peaceably and lawfully in Erets Yisra`el. But, claiming land that is in no way theirs and calling for blood and worse is going to be a non-starter.

Even if in the shadow of Islam temporarily, Israeli Arab can keep friendship with Jewish, as Abrahamic Oriental descendants of Keturah does. Many Jewish are researching Oriental Buddhism which has relationship with Abrahamic Oriental descendants. The friendship between Jewish and Oriental is not so difficult.

Not sure what that has to do with antisemitism or anti-Zionism. Sounds like another non-sequitur.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Yusuphhai

Messianic Arabic-Semitic Chinese
Oct 19, 2005
5,036
1,867
51
Beijing China
✟170,231.00
Country
China
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Are you saying that he in unconcerned with Zionist or anti-Zionist efforts? Eventually, he's going to land on one side of the fence, because a balancing act is hard to maintain over time.



As far as Yisma`el is concerned, yes. In fact, he is against every man, as HaShem Himself declares (cf. B`resheet 16). As far as Esav is concerned, he reconciled with Ya`akov (cf. B'resheet 33). Esav's descendants, however, were treacherous towards the children of Yisra`el (cf. Bamidmar 20, Shof`tim 11, Yirme`yahu 49, Tehillah 83, etc.).



You mean an Arab living peacefully in Yisra`el, while not calling for the expulsion or murder of Jews? Obviously not.



Antisemitism and anti-Zionism has specific targets, not in reference to those having kinship with Shem in a general sense. We know what these vile forms of hatred are, and throwing etymology into the mix blindly is only a non-sequitur. It's always been about hating Jews.



Both are inexorably tied together. They have Biblical precedent, which is clearly shown in the Scriptures. Jews are claiming their birthright and HaShem has not interposed, as He did when those who were not the Remnant arrogantly carried on as if HaShem's judgement didn't apply to them, as recorded in the prophecy given to Y`chez`qel.



There is a Biblical path for those peoples, then. They can either go the way of Ruth or otherwise resolve to dwell peaceably and lawfully in Erets Yisra`el. But, claiming land that is in no way theirs and calling for blood and worse is going to be a non-starter.



Not sure what that has to do with antisemitism or anti-Zionism. Sounds like another non-sequitur.
The general conception of “Anti-Semitism” would also hurt Messianic. Judaism thinks Paul (Saul) was an Anti-Semitist and Jewish could also be Anti-Semitist. I talked about the Oriental because they are farther to Anti-Semitism than Western. Non-Anti-Semitism can help to understand Anti-Semitism. Anti-Anti-Semitism need to cooperate with Non-Anti-Semitism.
 
Upvote 0

GedaliahMaegil

Messianic Ger Toshav - not christian
Jun 19, 2020
369
158
California
Visit site
✟71,385.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The general conception of “Anti-Semitism” would also hurt Messianic.

That is a long-standing lie, put forth by factions that want to de-legitimise the Jewishness of Messianic Jews, while trying to make Messianic Judaism just another denomination of christianity (which it is not). The only answer to that is for Messianic Jews to stand firm and say, "We are children of Avraham, Yitschaq and Ya`akov, the same as you are. We are in obedience to HaShem, in bringing the nations both to Torah and to their Messiah." Anything less falls far short of the goal of the Truth.

Judaism thinks Paul (Saul) was an Anti-Semitist and Jewish could also be Anti-Semitist.

So? It's part-and-parcel of the same false accusation that I mention above. The answer is the same (Sha`ul's answer in specific is found in Ma`asei 21-22 and 25-26.); indeed, the answer to a lie must always be the Truth.

I talked about the Oriental because they are farther to Anti-Semitism than Western.

Have you ever visited Auschwitz in Poland or Goa in India or Evora in Portugal? Sorry, but the peoples of the Orient will never hold a candle to European antisemitism.

Non-Anti-Semitism can help to understand Anti-Semitism.

Utterly false. Those balanced on the high and narrow peak of a fence will never fully understand what the ground on either side looks like.

Anti-Anti-Semitism need to cooperate with Non-Anti-Semitism.

No. People must either pick a side against atrocities that have lasted over 1,900 years or stay far away from the issue in their cowardice.
 
Upvote 0

Yusuphhai

Messianic Arabic-Semitic Chinese
Oct 19, 2005
5,036
1,867
51
Beijing China
✟170,231.00
Country
China
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
That is a long-standing lie, put forth by factions that want to de-legitimise the Jewishness of Messianic Jews, while trying to make Messianic Judaism just another denomination of christianity (which it is not). The only answer to that is for Messianic Jews to stand firm and say, "We are children of Avraham, Yitschaq and Ya`akov, the same as you are. We are in obedience to HaShem, in bringing the nations both to Torah and to their Messiah." Anything less falls far short of the goal of the Truth.

So? It's part-and-parcel of the same false accusation that I mention above. The answer is the same (Sha`ul's answer in specific is found in Ma`asei 21-22 and 25-26.); indeed, the answer to a lie must always be the Truth.

Have you ever visited Auschwitz in Poland or Goa in India or Evora in Portugal? Sorry, but the peoples of the Orient will never hold a candle to European antisemitism.

Utterly false. Those balanced on the high and narrow peak of a fence will never fully understand what the ground on either side looks like.

No. People must either pick a side against atrocities that have lasted over 1,900 years or stay far away from the issue in their cowardice.

The essence of Anti-Semitism is hatred of G-d. As long as the evils exists in this world, Anti-Semitism would not disappear. Not all evils have relationship with Anti-Semitism (AS) directly, but they are all advantageous conditions to foster AS. It is very hard to separate the AS elements very clearly from the organizations (E.G. Christianity) who declare they are loyal to G-d. Actually, maybe they are just loyal to some kinds of theology, which has hidden AS elements, but they don’t know clearly.

Humans are always suspicious to each other. Judaism thinks MJ is a more dangerous opponent and the ultimate form of Christianity, and the opponent staying in the inner is more tricky than in the outer.

Defend Israel need to pay attention to the inner opponent, including false Jews. Someone told me why he disliked Jews is that false Jews like Jewish Communists hunted him.

Even if being misunderstood as “inner opponent”, but advantageous to Israeli diplomacy and international surroundings, it would be worth trying.
 
Upvote 0

GedaliahMaegil

Messianic Ger Toshav - not christian
Jun 19, 2020
369
158
California
Visit site
✟71,385.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The essence of Anti-Semitism is hatred of G-d.

If you are referring to the adversary's origin of antisemitism, then yes, it is ultimately a hatred of HaShem. However, in those people who are engaged in believing and promoting the lies of the adversary in this regard, antisemitism does not take direct aim at HaShem but at the "apple of His eye". Even those who claim to serve HaShem and His Messiah, who are involved in the vileness of antisemitism, make themselves His enemies by hating Jews and those gerim who have come to know HaShem through them.

As long as the evils exists in this world, Anti-Semitism would not disappear.

"So, why bother to oppose it, then?" one might ask. As for me, it is because it is sin, and I am called oppose what is sinful.

Not all evils have relationship with Anti-Semitism (AS) directly, but they are all advantageous conditions to foster AS.

That seems too blanketed an assertion. Antisemitism takes very specific and categorical forms, which are not comprehensive of all types of evil. Are you, by chance, attempting to insert non-Biblical philosophies?

It is very hard to separate the AS elements very clearly from the organizations (E.G. Christianity) who declare they are loyal to G-d.

I have observed that the irreligious and irreverent have learned antisemitism directly and indirectly from the religious among the nations. It stands as a major point of hypocrisy, when these religious persons claim - often in the same breath - to have a Biblical founding.

Actually, maybe they are just loyal to some kinds of theology, which has hidden AS elements, but they don’t know clearly.

I could answer that point, but I would be in violation of the rules of this site.

Humans are always suspicious to each other.

And not without good reason. I submit to the Wisdom of HaShem in this regard: "The heart is deceitful above all things and is incurable; who can know him? (cf. Yirme`yahu 17)" and "Good to trust in Adonai than to trust in man. (cf. Tehillah 118)".

Judaism thinks MJ is a more dangerous opponent and the ultimate form of Christianity, and the opponent staying in the inner is more tricky than in the outer.

The only reason that Messianic Judaism seems to be a threat - to both Rabbinic Judaism and to those among the nations who claim to serve HaShem - is the same reason that Messiah Yeshua was a threat, because the Truth exposes the excellence of Torah and the lies of men at the same time. There is an investiture in the those things which HaShem and Messiah never instituted or promoted, added to or subtracted from, in His Holy Word.

In Erets Yisra`el, among those of Am Yisra`el, people are hearing about the things that HaShem wants them to know, while also learning about what has been kept from them, and they are finding a place in the B'rit Chadashah in Messiah Yeshua. This ruffles a more than a few feathers and upsets the hegemonical apple cart that propped up certain people in prominence.

On the other hand, those of the nations who have invented their own religious, claiming to serve HaShem, in ways that are syncretic with the heathen observances, are likewise threatened by a return of a first century CE follwing of Messiah, which resembles nothing that man-made religion has come up with in the past 1,900 years. There was been significant monetary profit in their endeavours, and they do not like to see a threat to their income.

Defend Israel need to pay attention to the inner opponent, including false Jews.

I am unfamiliar with that organisation. However, I would recommend not using such terms as "false Jews", which is, by itself, has been used quite often in varied antisemitic diatribes. In Torah, there are specific things that would cut off a person from the Yisra`el of HaShem; that is the only guide I will go by. Even so, those of the nations are warned not to curse or cast judgment on the children of Yisra`el. It's something I take very seriously.

Someone told me why he disliked Jews is that false Jews like Jewish Communists hunted him.

People will come up with all sorts of justifications for antisemitism, which do not persuade me at all, ever. There is a Judge, and to Him is reserved that judgment.

Even if being misunderstood as “inner opponent”, but advantageous to Israeli diplomacy and international surroundings, it would be worth trying.

Trying what, though? Obviously, over 1,900 years of religious antisemitism, coupled with syncretic evangelism hasn't worked. Messiah's example - and that of His talmidim - is the best, I have observed. They dealt with people where they were, not where they ultimately ought to be.

Shim`on Kefa went to the home of a gentile soldier, even though the man-made traditions of his people would have rejected such an approach. Rav Sha`ul approached the peoples of Asia Minor and Greece in terms they could understand, while never reducing the Word of HaShem in any respect. The writer of the letter to the `Ib`rim spoke using examples that were understood by Jews. Messiah Yeshua spoke in the parables, in a style that was very familiar to rabbinic talmidim of that time.

If there is going to be a bringing of Messiah to Jews in Erets Yisra`el, it's going to take the form of those deep one-to-one discussions that are a hallmark of Jewish life from antiquity. It's going to be Torah-centered and in context of Tanakh, which are the very same Scriptures that the first talmidim of Messiah had available to them. Messiah's Words will be shown as flowing from those same Scriptures, as well as those of His talmidim. Messiah Yeshua's and Rav Sha`ul's unwarranted reputation as a Torah-deniers will be patiently be shown as untrue.

What it won't be is in the form of people standing on soapboxes with a bullhorn, passing out tracts.
 
Upvote 0