Does Anti-Zionism Equate to Anti-Semitism?

Does Anti-Zionism equate to Anti-Semitism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 40.0%
  • No

    Votes: 3 60.0%

  • Total voters
    5

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
55,323
8,143
US
✟1,099,484.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss presents a lecture at the Ramapo University in Mahwah, New Jersey. He discusses the history of Zionism, the scriptural arguments against it, and how it affects those who adhere to Orthodox Judaism.

 

GedaliahMaegil

Messianic Ger Toshav - not christian
Jun 19, 2020
369
158
California
Visit site
✟71,385.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
All he is doing is convoluting different things, based on loose mentions from Midrashic fables and the say-so of men, not HaShem. He speaks of how Torah cannot be changed, and then goes on to say that Avraham was thrown into a furnace, which you will never find in Torah.

I just can't take him seriously.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
55,323
8,143
US
✟1,099,484.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
All he is doing is convoluting different things, based on loose mentions from Midrashic fables and the say-so of men, not HaShem. He speaks of how Torah cannot be changed, and then goes on to say that Avraham was thrown into a furnace, which you will never find in Torah.

I just can't take him seriously.

This is just one Rabbi, who expresses an ideology which stands congruent with the general Orthodox community.

Here is what some other Rabbis have said on the subject:




Source: The Rabbis Speak Out
 
Upvote 0

GedaliahMaegil

Messianic Ger Toshav - not christian
Jun 19, 2020
369
158
California
Visit site
✟71,385.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
This is just one Rabbi, who expresses an ideology which stands congruent with the general Orthodox community.

Here is what some other Rabbis have said on the subject:

So? Put forth a thousand men with the same faulty conviction, and they will all be wrong.

I actually took the time to listen to the whole of this man's speech, pausing it at points to verify the things he was saying, and I found errors of all sorts in what he was saying, whether Biblical errors, additions to Torah, subtraction from Torah, contextual errors, and logical fallacy errors (including appeals-to-authourity galore). The speed at which he spoke and switched gears did not hide those errors from me.

Again, I cannot take him seriously. It was like watching Tovia Singer try to back-pedal during a debate.
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,459
3,771
Eretz
✟317,562.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss presents a lecture at the Ramapo University in Mahwah, New Jersey. He discusses the history of Zionism, the scriptural arguments against it, and how it affects those who adhere to Orthodox Judaism.

Depends on your definition of Zionism. Mine is that it is the right of self determination of the Jewish people (Klal Yisrael and Am Yisrael).

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,459
3,771
Eretz
✟317,562.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss presents a lecture at the Ramapo University in Mahwah, New Jersey. He discusses the history of Zionism, the scriptural arguments against it, and how it affects those who adhere to Orthodox Judaism.


Rabbi Weiss is part of Neturei Karta

 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
55,323
8,143
US
✟1,099,484.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Rabbi Weiss is part of Neturei Karta


I've watched this guy's debates. I don't consider him to be a credible source. He picks the weaklings to take part in his debates; then he uses tactics like asking loaded questions, and interrupting them, before they can make their points, then steering the conversation in the direction that he wants it to go; so that he can express his opinions.

I doubt that he would post his recording on YouTube; if he managed to fumble into finding a formidable opponent.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
55,323
8,143
US
✟1,099,484.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
So? Put forth a thousand men with the same faulty conviction, and they will all be wrong.

I actually took the time to listen to the whole of this man's speech, pausing it at points to verify the things he was saying, and I found errors of all sorts in what he was saying, whether Biblical errors, additions to Torah, subtraction from Torah, contextual errors, and logical fallacy errors (including appeals-to-authourity galore). The speed at which he spoke and switched gears did not hide those errors from me.

Again, I cannot take him seriously. It was like watching Tovia Singer try to back-pedal during a debate.

So do you believe that he is an Anti-Semite?

What are your thoughts on his arguments as they pertain to prophecy?
 
Upvote 0

GedaliahMaegil

Messianic Ger Toshav - not christian
Jun 19, 2020
369
158
California
Visit site
✟71,385.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
So do you believe that he is an Anti-Semite?

What are your thoughts on his arguments as they pertain to prophecy?

I am not a judge over him, but I observe something that resembles l`shon hara in his speech. That is not antisemitism, but it is foolishness and false accusation combined. He pleads the case of antisemitism on the part of the nations and then accuses his brothers of the same, as if the Jews return to Eretz Yisra`el is comparable to Shoah and the Inquisitions and the Pogroms, which is ridiculous on its face.

When he can speak about B`nai Yisra`el and the Land in the direct context of Torah and the N`vi`im, instead of relying on commentary and fables, then I'll be happy to re-evaluate his words. Until then, I'm not buying what he's selling, regardless of how quickly he speaks.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
55,323
8,143
US
✟1,099,484.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Depends on your definition of Zionism. Mine is that it is the right of self determination of the Jewish people (Klal Yisrael and Am Yisrael).


Here is a map which shows how the land was divided among the tribes of Israel:

1200px-12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg.png


Now considering that the lost tribes have not been regathered; on what grounds does this commentator's opinion hold water?
 
Upvote 0

GedaliahMaegil

Messianic Ger Toshav - not christian
Jun 19, 2020
369
158
California
Visit site
✟71,385.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Here is a map which shows how the land was divided among the tribes of Israel:

Now considering that the lost tribes have not been regathered; on what grounds does this commentator's opinion hold water?

Here's a map approximating the land grant from HaShem to Avraham and his children (through Yitschaq specifically, according to B`resheet 21:12), based on B`resheet 15:18-21 and 12:7:

AbrahamicLandGrant.JPG

Contrary to the speaker's pro-"palestinian" bent, based on Torah the people of Eretz Yisra`el are showing considerable restraint, because they could fight for more if they wanted to. What he calls "theft" in error is plain-to-see as considerable restraint. Zionist leader Chaim Weizmann even was willing to compromise on a division of the land (then held by the British, including what is currently the state of Yisra`el, the peninsula of Sinai and the kingdom of Jordan, even if the partition for Jews "were the size of a tablecloth". I would recommend this video to those who want to examine the history of the decisions, negotiations and conflict involving the territory.

There is something, however, to be said for those who refuse their birthright. One need only look at the example of Esav, who gave up his birthright for a bowl of stew. When it came to the time of blessing, Esav could not recover the blessing due his birthright, despite his pleading, and had to rely on a lesser blessing (which could be called a mercy). What the speaker seems to be doing is like what would have happened if Esav had hung around Ya`akov after losing the blessing of the firstborn and nagged him every day about it, as if he held some higher moral ground.

That being said, those Jews who have returned to Eretz Yisra`el may not all be religious or of righteous or worthy, but at least they took hold of their birthright, given all the forces that worked to open that up to them. I submit that while HaShem used the heathen nations to scatter them, He is also able to use heathen nations in their prophesied re-gathering. Does the speaker and his fellows suggest that HaShem cannot do as he pleases? Do they fall into the same error of those who opposed the N`vi`im, who saw the providence of HaShem amidst the warnings and said "We are well enough without"? The questions beg asking ... and answering.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
55,323
8,143
US
✟1,099,484.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
I would recommend this video to those who want to examine the history of the decisions, negotiations and conflict involving the territory.

This video was packed with information regarding the history of the development of the Israeli State. I consider that information to be coming from a biased perspective; but it was very informative nonetheless.

I highly recommend it.

 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,459
3,771
Eretz
✟317,562.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
I've watched this guy's debates. I don't consider him to be a credible source. He picks the weaklings to take part in his debates; then he uses tactics like asking loaded questions, and interrupting them, before they can make their points, then steering the conversation in the direction that he wants it to go; so that he can express his opinions.

I doubt that he would post his recording on YouTube; if he managed to fumble into finding a formidable opponent.

A Zionist Jew is not a credible source regarding Zionism LOL? It is about what he is saying, not about his debating style...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,459
3,771
Eretz
✟317,562.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Here is a map which shows how the land was divided among the tribes of Israel:

1200px-12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg.png


Now considering that the lost tribes have not been regathered; on what grounds does this commentator's opinion hold water?

What is your point...?? Not many things happen over night...there needs to be somewhere to regather to...and now there is
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
55,323
8,143
US
✟1,099,484.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
A Zionist Jew is not a credible source regarding Zionism LOL? It is about what he is saying, not about his debating style...

Did you watch the video? He states that he has at the AIPAC conference to see what the protestors think. The fact that he talks over them indicates that he's not interested in what they think. Stating that he's not credible was being polite. This man has a problem with integrity. I don't find this to be amusing.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
55,323
8,143
US
✟1,099,484.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
What is your point...?? Not many things happen over night...there needs to be somewhere to regather to...and now there is

What would make you believe that YHWH can't gather his people in an instant; when he calls them? Those who are occupying Israel are largely secular; and only a minute few accept Messiah. Do you believe that the majority of them have been called to the regathering in Messiah?

The Orthodox believe that they must wait to be regathered in Messiah; that they are to wait on YHWH to lead them; that they don't need to help him. We can learn a lesson from Abraham regarding our need to help YHWH accomplish his will. The Orthodox view seems to fit scripture more closely than the secular view.

(CLV) Isa 11:11
And it will come to be in that day, Yahweh shall again lift- up~ His hand, To 7be zealous for the remnant of His people Which shall remain from Assyria and from Egypt, From Pathros and from Cush, From Elam and from Shinar, From Hamath and from the coastlands of the sea.

(CLV) Isa 11:12
He will lift up a banner for the nations And gather the expelled of Israel, And He shall convene the scattered of Judah From the four wings of the earth.

83% of those in Israel came for lands not mentioned by Isaiah; and three of the lands that he mentioned, are not represented. Was Isaiah 83% wrong?

I look at the Orthodox who devote their lives to the love of YHWH, and the love of his Torah, and compare them to those who are secular in Israel. Who do you suppose better represent Yah's people?
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,459
3,771
Eretz
✟317,562.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
What would make you believe that YHWH can't gather his people in an instant; when he calls them? Those who are occupying Israel are largely secular; and only a minute few accept Messiah. Do you believe that the majority of them have been called to the regathering in Messiah?

The Orthodox believe that they must wait to be regathered in Messiah; that they are to wait on YHWH to lead them; that they don't need to help him. We can learn a lesson from Abraham regarding our need to help YHWH accomplish his will. The Orthodox view seems to fit scripture more closely than the secular view.

(CLV) Isa 11:11
And it will come to be in that day, Yahweh shall again lift- up~ His hand, To 7be zealous for the remnant of His people Which shall remain from Assyria and from Egypt, From Pathros and from Cush, From Elam and from Shinar, From Hamath and from the coastlands of the sea.

(CLV) Isa 11:12
He will lift up a banner for the nations And gather the expelled of Israel, And He shall convene the scattered of Judah From the four wings of the earth.

83% of those in Israel came for lands not mentioned by Isaiah; and three of the lands that he mentioned, are not represented. Was Isaiah 83% wrong?

I look at the Orthodox who devote their lives to the love of YHWH, and the love of his Torah, and compare them to those who are secular in Israel. Who do you suppose better represent Yah's people?

The Orthodox that are not Zionists are very few. YHVH also works through people to accomplish His goals...
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
55,323
8,143
US
✟1,099,484.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
The Orthodox that are not Zionists are very few. YHVH also works through people to accomplish His goals...

Not according to my sources. I gave you one of my sources. The other source comes from the UK; but the video contains a person screaming profanity at the Orthodox, as they peacefully walk down the street; so I can't post it here. Can you provide a source to support this assertion?

This turnout doesn't look like a fringe minority to me:


Look at the audience. It is primarily composed of those who are older. From this I would derive that they are representative of the leaders of the community.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,459
3,771
Eretz
✟317,562.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Not according to my sources. I gave you one of my sources. The other source comes from the UK; but the video contains a person screaming profanity at the Orthodox, as they peacefully walk down the street; so I can't post it here. Can you provide a source to support this assertion?

This turnout doesn't look like a fringe minority to me:


Look at the audience. It is primarily composed of those who are older. From this I would derive that they are representative of the leaders of the community.

Those are all likely Satmars and members of the extreme ultra-Orthodox group Neturei Karta. They are only one sect within worldwide Judaism. Are you saying that only anti-Zionist Jews are Torah observant?
 
Upvote 0