Does a priest have authority to withhold forgiveness?

[Tree of Life]

Not according to the Bible, Jesus was clear when he said:

If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
(John. 20:23 NRSV)
Accordance Link

See my earlier response to the same verse.

Are you and others suggesting that this verse means that priests have an intrinsic authority to forgive sins? In other words, may a priest forgive a non-penitent person? May a priest withhold forgiveness from a truly penitent person? By no means! I don't think any Papist would accept a position like this. Priests have no intrinsic authority, but ministers of the gospel have a derivative authority which is God's authority. If God forgives a person, then a priest can do nothing to stand in God's way.

 

[Tree of Life]

Please take note that this thread is in the Traditional Theology subforum. Please read the Statement of Purpose and reconsider your posts.

There's nothing traditional about maintaining that priests have an intrinsic authority to forgive sins. This may be a novel Roman invention, but I doubt that the Romans would even accept such an outrageous doctrine.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Yes, like mortal sins vs. venial sins. Only the worst of mortal sins would give them pause, I would imagine.

No, the distinction of mortal vs venial sins isn't the issue here. It's whether one is actually sorry for their sins or not.

 

[Fascinated With God]

No, the distinction of mortal vs venial sins isn't the issue here. It's whether one is actually sorry for their sins or not.

I'm suggesting that a priest isn't going to try to psychoanalyze whether the repentance is truly heartfelt unless it's a serious issue, or a penitent flaunts lack of repentance.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Actually it IS the priest's job to try and determine if a person is truly repentant. But in our tradition, a priest would need to be very confident of a person's failure to repent before he would refuse absolution.

If a priest pronounces absolution in good faith but in error, God is not obligated to forgive. The priest is really just a witness. Grace actually comes from God. So any error on the priest's part would not mock God. God will always do what is right.

 

[Hank77]

Yes. It comes from the same authority to forgive.

Jhn 20:23 - “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Before this the Lord never gave them this authority, correct? In context, I think the scriptures show us why they could now be trusted with this authority.

Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

 

[Hank77]

Ir most certainly can if the priest does not believe the person has not truly repented, or is not prepared to follow through with restitution.

Doesn't restitution come first, at least before receiving the Eucharist, the Lord's Supper?

Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

 

[gordonhooker]

Doesn't restitution come first, at least before receiving the Eucharist, the Lord's Supper?

Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Not that I am aware of that in the Anglican Church anyway. I am not sure what happens in other denominations that have confession.

 

[gordonhooker]

See my earlier response to the same verse.

Are you and others suggesting that this verse means that priests have an intrinsic authority to forgive sins? In other words, may a priest forgive a non-penitent person? May a priest withhold forgiveness from a truly penitent person? By no means! I don't think any Papist would accept a position like this. Priests have no intrinsic authority, but ministers of the gospel have a derivative authority which is God's authority. If God forgives a person, then a priest can do nothing to stand in God's way.

What I am suggesting is that the verse is supporting confession, the authority to pass it on comes from Apostolic tradition.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Doesn't restitution come first, at least before receiving the Eucharist, the Lord's Supper?

Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

That very much would depend, I think.

The traditional canons would often prescribe a certain period of being denied the Eucharist as a period of penance. Everything is done "for the salvation" of the person - whatever is best for their soul in the priest's best wisdom (in our Tradition). So if there was a really serious situation, they still might be told to abstain from the Eucharist, in order to fully repent for the sin and for their own protection (killing a person, abortion, divorce, adultery).

I'm not sure really about situations where one person offends/damages another. It's not something I've asked about and when I was involved in such a thing I tried to soothe the offense immediately, before arranging confession.

I think it would likely depend on how serious it was, and what was best for both persons. (You know sometimes going to someone who was never actually offended by you and explaining your "error" can create a rift where there wasn't one. But if the other person really does have something against you, it is important to try to work it out.)

 

[Hank77]

Everything is done "for the salvation" of the person - whatever is best for their soul in the priest's best wisdom (in our Tradition).

Is the soul of their victim, in a serious offense, taken into consideration?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Is the soul of their victim, in a serious offense, taken into consideration?

Absolutely. Though it's difficult to answer in theoretical terms without knowing the situation.

If we commit a serious sin that endangers the soul of our victim - then not only do we have the sin but the potential damage to their soul on our hands. Whatever can be done to make any restitution should be done. But if something might salve the sinner's conscience, yet cause more trauma to the victim, it won't be done. The priest's job is to care for ALL the souls as best he can.


This is probably not along the lines of what you mean, but I've known it happen more than once. A visitor came into the Church, and someone there commented on the way they were dressed, or some other aspect, making the person feel unwelcome and they left. The bishop was furious. He ordered that the person who committed that offense had as their penance/responsibility to pray for that one they offended every day for the rest of their lives. And such an order can't be lifted by any person (since it wasn't out of order). If that gives you some little idea?

 

[Tree of Life]

What I am suggesting is that the verse is supporting confession, the authority to pass it on comes from Apostolic tradition.

The verse doesn't say anything about confession. How do you believe it supports it?

 

[HTacianas]

There's nothing traditional about maintaining that priests have an intrinsic authority to forgive sins. This may be a novel Roman invention, but I doubt that the Romans would even accept such an outrageous doctrine.

That teaching is not Roman, it is Christian. It is practiced in all of the original Churches. And as we have shown, the authority comes directly from Christ. No re-interpretation is needed. It has been interpreted for two thousand years.

 

[PloverWing]

I really like ~Anastasia~'s way of putting it:

If a priest pronounces absolution in good faith but in error, God is not obligated to forgive. The priest is really just a witness. Grace actually comes from God. So any error on the priest's part would not mock God. God will always do what is right.

For those of you who come from a tradition without priests, or a tradition in which Reconciliation of a Penitent is not a sacrament practiced in your church, think about what God requires of us when we have sinned, in order to be reconciled to God and our neighbor. Sometimes, nothing is required except for gratitude for God's forgiveness. Sometimes, some form of restitution or reconciliation is required to put things right with our neighbors. Priests do their best to discern this and communicate it to the peninent.

 

[gordonhooker]

The verse doesn't say anything about confession. How do you believe it supports it?

I believe that it does. That said, you can believe what you want, obviously you have some issues with traditional doctrine so I will leave it with you.

 

[DamianWarS]

Short answer yes.

After reading peoples responses I think I disagree, the short answer seems to be no.

 

[Fascinated With God]

After reading peoples responses I think I disagree, the short answer seems to be no.

What would constitute a yes in your mind? Excommunication? That is a different topic above and beyond not receiving absolution.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The purpose of Traditional Theology is not to debate whether Tradition is wrong. If you don't agree, that's fine. Debate it in General Theology if you like.

 

[DamianWarS]

What would constitute a yes in your mind? Excommunication? That is a different topic above and beyond not receiving absolution.

I say no for the short answer because in practice it doesn't seem to happen