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Does a GLOBAL FLOOD truly seem like the BEST explanation for seashells on mountains?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by ThouShaltNotPoe, Mar 17, 2013.

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  1. ThouShaltNotPoe

    ThouShaltNotPoe Learn whatever I can.

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    This is a GREAT EXAMPLE of a favorite propaganda technique for which Creation.com is famous. [Gradyll doesn't use quotation marks or in any way indicate that this is a copy-and-paste from a website. The reader only figures this out when he realizes that not the numbered FIGURES in the text are not shown *and* when he moves his mouse over the link at the bottom of the post. Notice also that Gradyll uses the title "Flood Explanation" at the top of the post---setting up in the reader's mind that this is about NOAH'S Flood when in fact the only relationship between the formation and the article and Noah's Flood is that WATER MOVEMENT (of some sort) does the eroding, including rain, snow, and water freezing in cracks. Yes, much like sea-shells-on-mountains, to a creationist the "proof" of a global flood is considered anything that involves WATER! Yes, they set the bar extremely low.]

    Notice how virtually EVERY creationist article, website, and forum post includes the requisite "evil conspiracy theory" and "Danger Will Robertson!!!" strategy. Gradyll's beings with: Devil's Tower, another tool of the Devil to explain away the Flood. Of course, all of the "creation science" industry entrepreneurs discovered long ago that the best way to solicit money from donors was to scare them with stories of how SATAN is behind the enemies machinations and "genuine Christians" will invest their dollars in stopping those fiends who conspire to destroy us! As the title explains, the DEVIL HIMSELF is behind Devil's Tower because those evil conspirators want to "explain away" the flood---even though Genesis never claimed that the flood was global! (Doesn't matter. After all, TRADITION is more important than what the Bible says.)

    Geologists have a number of theories about HOW the Devil's Tower formed but to my knowledge almost all of the theories involve water in some form gradually eroding the sediments AROUND the igneous column which is the tower. And in the "creation science" world, that [conveniently] ALWAYS means the waters of Noah's Flood draining away---despite the absence of evidence for such. Indeed, there are MANY other explanations for why waters would be eroding the sedimentary rock around the tower. But what I find particularly humorous is that creationists employ this easy "It was the flood of Noah!" solution even while failing to point out to the reader that the various formations involve DIFFERENT rock strata around the world. (That is, they don't line up as consistent strata.) And that is why creationists RARELY identify the rock layer which represents the flood "era". They KNOW that their "evidence" is inconsistent---and the reader will ONLY be told the information that HELPS the young earth creationist case, not the data which debunks it. Creation.com also avoids telling the reader how OTHER creationists come up with contradictory theories. (So they like to make it look like those "atheist scientists can never agree on anything but "creation science" has the answers.)

    And readers who have some basic geology in their backgrounds (especially if they know how creationists abuse terminology) will notice that, as usual, the creationists have their own "pet definitions" for UNIFORMITARIANISM and CATASTROPHISM. These make convenient straw men which they can set up and then pretend that those conspiring geologists have backed themselves into some imaged corner where they are in a terrible quandary.

    There's a lot of great Youtube videos which shred these kinds of Creation.com pseudo-science articles. These "flood geology" articles all follow similar scripts. But they NEVER tell their readers that many of the men who pioneered the modern science of geology started their field work fully expecting to confirm their personal religious presuppositions that Noah's Flood had created the landscapes we see today. Of course, this was understandable, seeing how such a HUGE flood only a few thousand years ago would be sure to leave abundant evidence virtually everywhere we look. So those Bible-toting early scientists were baffled that not only did they find ZERO evidence of a global flood, what they DID find told a VERY different story! Yes, water often play a prominent role but they soon realized that a flood environment leaves completely different remnants and land-forms then did various kinds of oceans, seas, lakes, rivers, and glaciers, just to name a few. Creationists like to pretend that every sign of water in the past must have been NOAH'S floodwaters. But modern geology was the result of those early field scientists seeing their presuppositions totally destroyed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  2. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    Devil's tower has been recognized for over 100 years as an igneous intrusion into surrounding sedimentary rock. There is no need to bring a flood into the formation of the tower. It is simply more resistant to erosion than the surrounding sedimentary rocks. No flood mechanism is needed to explain the tower. Nor is there any erosion of the tower that is indicative of rapidly flowing water.

    The Devil's Tower explanation of Flood "geologists" is an example of grasping at straws.

    When they can explain incised meanders get back to me.
     
  3. ThouShaltNotPoe

    ThouShaltNotPoe Learn whatever I can.

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    Yes, I realize that Gradyll's copy-and-paste from Creation.com has nothing to do with the OP (" Does a GLOBAL FLOOD truly seem like the BEST explanation for seashells on mountains? " but I realized that no creationist was going to touch the seashell topic. (Even they know how lame it as an explanation.)

    And Gradyll's post is really quite an excellent illustration of creationist tactics and pseudo-science when addressed to an uninformed audience. The Creation.com audience overlaps greatly with Ken Hovind & Son. (Eric is running the family business while Dad and Mom are serving time in the federal pen for 60+ felony criminal counts. Pathological lying often runs in families.)
     
  4. ThouShaltNotPoe

    ThouShaltNotPoe Learn whatever I can.

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    Reminder: Millions of Christians around the world revere the Bible and believe it when it describes Noah surviving a flood. But because the Hebrew Bible doesn't describe a GLOBAL flood and the GEOLOGIC EVIDENCE doesn't point to a global flood, millions of Christians don't believe the flood was global. Simple as that.

    But both Answers in Genesis and Creation.com will tell you: Christians who don't believe that Noah's Flood was GLOBAL, are "compromising Christians" and are allied with Satan!

    Bottom Line: Even though no conspiracy from Satan is required, a good conspiracy theory by Satanic armies of atheist scientists is always good for donations!
     
  5. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

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    And don't forget the entertainment value.
     
  6. ThouShaltNotPoe

    ThouShaltNotPoe Learn whatever I can.

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    True. And anyone who hasn't watched Potholer54's annual Golden Crocoduck Awards on Youtube is missing a real treat.

    They have lots of nomination videos and then Potholer54's commentary and comedic critique's. Priceless!

    Of course, the creationist nonsense is not judged merely on what they get wrong. It is an evaluation of their violations of the Ninth Commandment which are the basis for voting.

    I think Kent Hovind won the first year and his son, Eric Hovind won the 2012 honors. But I really think that when Kent Hovind gets out of federal prison, he deserves a Lifetime Achievement Award----a special recognition by the Academy for exceptional contributions to the hilarity and dishonesty that makes the pseudo-science industry pioneers so remarkable. (I used to enjoy watching Hovind videos just for the comic relief. But over time he turned more and more into a self-parody, and his pathological lying not only put him and his wife in federal prison, it has stained the reputations of Christ followers and the Bible in general in ways which, as a disciple of Jesus Christ, absolutely sicken me.)

    But sometimes I have to laugh in order to avoid crying. But perhaps our emphasizing their folly in these venues will alert my Christian brethren NOT to send any more money to such clowns. (Sadly, some creationist Christians are donating money to Hovind's legal defense fund.)

    .
     
  7. Split Rock

    Split Rock Conflation of Blathers

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    Why would you claim that the tower is "little eroded?"
     
  8. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    I don't believe that for one minute.

    What are "millions of Christians" doing, preferring the Hebrew Bible over the King James?

    I would love to do a one-on-one with a handful of them.

    I would ask them such things as:

    1. Do you have a Hebrew Bible at home? if so, have you read it?
    2. Do you know Hebrew? if so, are you fluent in it?
    3. Write the following in Hebrew for me: Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers.
    4. Are you saddened that the New Testament isn't in Hebrew?
    5. Are you an HBO (Hebrew Bible Only), as some are a KJVO (King James Version Only)?
     
  9. ThouShaltNotPoe

    ThouShaltNotPoe Learn whatever I can.

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    Yes, so much deception in the article. But even a reader with one semester of undergrad geology would choke on this one:
    "How could both hard sandstone and soft shale from the High Plains be eroded without any significant erosion of the Tower itself?"
    Are they serious?! Sandstone and "soft shale"? Notice how even THEY call it "soft shale"! And you know what else was among those sedimentary layers around the Devil's Tower that got eroded away? Gypsum! Yes, you know, that white stuff in drywall sheets. Not very hard, is it! In fact, it is downright brittle. In fact, on the Moh's scale of mineral hardness that goes from 1 to 10, Gypsum is a 2!

    So let's analyze Creation.com's "surprise" that the sedimentary layers around the tower eroded away while the tower eroded very slowly. Let's list the minerals (and the rocks containing multiple minerals) with their Moh's hardness number:

    Gypsum: 2 (very very soft)
    Shale: 3 (but at Devil's Tower it is SOFT shale, so more like 2.5)
    sandstone: ?
    [Moh's number doesn't really apply to sandstone because it is fine grains of sand that are compressed together in a kind of cemented state. So the tiny particles can be hard in themselves but they can be easily eroded apart and just wash away with the current or rain.]

    Now, how about the Devil's Tower COLUMN of IGNEOUS (not sedimentary) ROCK?

    Phonolite prophyry: 5.5 to 7 This is a rock with multiple kinds of minerals in it, each with a different hardness. It is basically a GRANITE without the quartz crystals. You know what GRANITE is: they make gravestones and even statues out of it! Yes, it is HARD. About twice as hard as the sedimentary layers around the Devil's Tower!

    Indeed, that is why the Devil's Tower remains and the SEDIMENTARY LAYERS have been eroded away. They eroded FAR FASTER because they are much SOFTER and it is easy for water to freeze in its cracks each year and fracture huge sections. Each year the damage is worse. And the little sand grains of sandstone can not only wash away, they can BLOW away!

    So even by young earth creationist and Creation.com standards, this statement is groan inducing! But they can spout such nonsense because uninformed, copy-and-paste, die-hard creationists will read it and take for granted that they have totally "buried" those evil geologists who don't know anything! So let's memorialize this delightfully stupid statement:
    "How could both hard sandstone and soft shale from the High Plains be eroded without any significant erosion of the Tower itself?"
    Yes, how could rocks and minerals of such radically different compositions and hardness erode at such different rates?

    (You can always tell a "creation scientist" but ya can't tell him much!)

    So, Gradyll, are you SURE you want to copy-and-paste from Creation.com and assume that they have something impressive to say? Really? (Can you say that with a straight face?)

    .
     
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    Wouldn't the "Hebrew Bible" still be in English? It seems to me that it is just a more accurate interpretation of the original than the King James is.

    It seems that AVET believes that the King James is the ultimate translation of the Bible.

    In other words he gets his mythology from the King James version and is not willing to consider what was originally meant by the authors of the O.T.
     
  11. Eight Foot Manchild

    Eight Foot Manchild His Supreme Holy Correctfulness

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    That's because the English of the KJV trumps the Hebrew that it was translated from. It makes perfect sense, you see.
     
  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    Yes, my bad. I keep forgetting that English is the universal language.

    Loud enough, slow enough, and preferably with a southern U.S. accent English can be understood by anyone:p
     
  13. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Those geologists assumed they would find certain uniform evidence, evidence that may not have been laid down by the flood. Geologists today have the same problem. They have no 'flood model' that large to work from. I'm not a geologist or a flood expert (nor a 'Creationist'), but I cannot imagine the flood leaving uniform evidence anywhere. The surface of the earth has been battered for millions of years by catastophic events including large floods. How is it even possible to sort it all out? :confused:

    These same experts insist that the ark would have collapsed in the flood apparently have never seen a fragile house being carried for miles intact on the waters of a local flood, or flown in a stiff breeze in a hot air balloon, both of which travel in relatively calm water or air. They are much too selective in their application of science. :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  14. Split Rock

    Split Rock Conflation of Blathers

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    No one expects uniform evidence everywhere. That is the other extreme. Certainly geologists understand quite well that there isn't anything uniform about the geological column. In some areas you have almost all the geological column represented (like North Dakota), while in many others certain eons are missing... either because there was no deposit of layers, or they have been eroded away. What we expect to find is evidence of a flood globally distributed at a particular time period. This is absent. If you knew nothing about the flood story, you would never conclude there was a global flood by looking at the geological column. It is that simple.


    I do not use this argument myself because it is rather weak. The bible does describe the ark as more of a containment vessel than a ship (something AVET pointed out to me). One can certainly imagine it being protected if necessary by God's hand. None of which conflicts with the evidence we have (nor could it really). The flood itself, however, is quite a different story. Unless God deliberately "covered up his tracks" so to speak, we should see the evidence.
     
  15. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    What we should see is flood deposits worldwide that date to 4,400 years before present. Instead, we see geologic records from that time period with no evidence of a flood whatsoever. Forests kept on growing, uninterrupted, right through that time period. Annual ice layers went right on piling up right through that time period. Annual lake varves kept right on going without any flood deposits interrupting them.

    Yes they do. Floods leave unmistakeable deposits. They aren't there.

    You sort it out by looking at the evidence. We have evidence of those catastrophes.

    How many of those houses stay watertight?
     
  16. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

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    Exactly.

    By default, copies and translations are ALWAYS more accurate than the original. Why can't people figure that out??? I mean, we'll all be speaking Elizabethan English in heaven. It's the language of the Divine .... always has been, always will be....
     
  17. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Interesting.

    So you think we'll be speaking Elizabethan English in Heaven?

    None of my business, but why do you think we'll be speaking Elizabethan English over Jacobean?
    Do you mind clarifying this?

    I'm under the impression that Jacobean English is the language of the Divine.
     
  18. Herman Hedning

    Herman Hedning Hiking is fun

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    Personally, I am convinced we'll all be speaking Godunovian Russian in heaven. Because that would be so cool, right?
     
  19. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

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    Please explain the difference.
     
  20. Herman Hedning

    Herman Hedning Hiking is fun

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    About 10 years.
     
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