Does 1 Peter 2:8 prove predestination implicitly?

[Hentenza]

No one has a parachute unless God gives them one. Some just think that they have one. Jump away.

 

[JM]

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For fun, even if I were Arminian, I would have no quarrels with this statement, but that by divine prevenient grace man's freedom has been redeemed through the blood of Christ.

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[FONT=&quot]You are claiming grace for the lost that does not exist. This grace is not grace, it has no power to save, it's ineffectual and based on promiscuous love. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Timothy 1:9[/FONT]

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And that the grace that precedes salvation enables the man to reject or accept the grace of God....

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[FONT=&quot]The grace of God is always effectual. The grace of God is found in the calling of His elect and in the regeneration of spirit dead in sin.[/FONT]

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I would also be lead to believe that you undermine grace and place sin, condemnation, and death containing more power than the grace of God. But it could work both ways (an Arminian undermines it by making grace "common" to all men and not a necessary efficacious irresistible grace).

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[FONT=&quot]I would say I exalt grace, free grace, and that true grace is given by God. There is nothing a person can do that would result in their salvation, nothing. Salvation from beginning to end is the work of God is the author and finisher of our faith.

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A. W. Pink has well said:

The salvation of any sinner is a matter of Divine power. By nature the sinner is at enmity with God, and naught but Divine power operating within him, can overcome this enmity; hence it is written, "No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him" (John 6:44). It is the Divine power overcoming the sinner’s innate enmity which makes him willing to come to Christ that he might have life. But this "enmity" is not overcome in all—why? Is it because the enmity is too strong to be overcome? Are there some hearts so steeled against Him that Christ is unable to gain entrance? To answer in the affirmative is to deny His omnipotence. In the final analysis it is not a question of the sinner’s willingness or unwillingness, for by nature all are unwilling. Willingness to come to Christ is the finished product of divine power operating in the human heart and will in overcoming man’s inherent and chronic "enmity," as it is written, "Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power" (Ps. 110:3). To say that Christ is unable to win to Himself those who are unwilling is to deny that all power in heaven and earth is His. To say that Christ cannot put forth His power without destroying man’s responsibility is a begging of the question here raised, for He has put forth His power and made willing those who have come to Him, and if He did this without destroying their responsibility, why "cannot" He do so with others. —The Sovereignty of God, pp. 78-79. Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1965.
​

 

[HinklesHounds]

First Let me say I do not think or believe that salvation is general. I think Jesus had you , me , everyone individually on his mind when he went to the cross . I think this is 1 point where we differ in belief. We both believe he had each individual that is to be saved on his mind difference being I believe he had those who will not be saved on his mind as well. As I look at it he died for the sinner that he might be saved , you look at it as he died for the saved because they would be be saved.


What you are calling Pride , I look at as haveing a desire to see the lost saved.
one would plant the seed, another water, and God will give the increase.
I by no means think that I can save someone or that I could save myself.
Only God's grace can do that . JUST BECUASE I CHOOSE TO ACCEPT CHRIST AS MY SAVIOR does not mean
that I didnt need Gods Grace and Jesus sacrifice just as you need it. I think biggest difference here is that when God calls you to be saved you believe you can't resist him and I believe and know that you can.
Jeremiah 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

I would also like to apologize if it seemed I was trying to belittle your faith as this was not my intent. And if I did not get your beleifs right above Im sorry for that as well. Comparing mine to Amway is a little belittling as well I think. Anyway may God bless you all.

 

[JM]

Br. Hinkleshounds, thank you for the discussion.

jm

 

[sheina]

1 Peter 2:8 does NOT prove predestination.

God planned man's salvation before the creation (Ephesians 1:5,11). This does not mean God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will not be. He has revealed that He wants all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4; John 3:16; 2 Peter 3:9). God knows the future and knows who will receive His offer of salvation; predestination is based on God's foreknowledge and has more to do with what the Christian is predestinated TO than WHO is predestinated (1 Peter 1:2; Romans 8:29). Predestination assures eternal salvation.

The Westminster Confession says, "By the decree of God ... some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and OTHERS FOREORDAINED TO EVERLASTING DEATH. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and UNCHANGEABLY DESIGNED; and their number is so certain and definite, THAT IT CANNOT BE EITHER INCREASED OR DIMINISHED. ... they who are elected ... are effectually called unto faith in Christ ... NEITHER ARE ANY OTHER REDEEMED by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, BUT THE ELECT ONLY." This is erroneous human philosophy, and it makes out God to be a liar, but the Bible plainly says salvation is for whosoever will (John 3:16; Revelation 22:17). The Bible repeats this and repeats this and repeats this. The Bible says Christ "gave himself a ransom FOR ALL" (1 Timothy 2:6). He purchased even wicked false teachers who are lost and on their way to Hell; when these men deny the biblical Jesus Christ, the Bible says they deny "the Lord that bought them" (2 Peter 2:1).

 

[98cwitr]

1 Peter 2:8 does NOT prove predestination.

God planned man's salvation before the creation (Ephesians 1:5,11). This does not mean God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will not be. He has revealed that He wants all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4; John 3:16; 2 Peter 3:9). God knows the future and knows who will receive His offer of salvation; predestination is based on God's foreknowledge and has more to do with what the Christian is predestinated TO than WHO is predestinated (1 Peter 1:2; Romans 8:29). Predestination assures eternal salvation.

The Westminster Confession says, "By the decree of God ... some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and OTHERS FOREORDAINED TO EVERLASTING DEATH. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and UNCHANGEABLY DESIGNED; and their number is so certain and definite, THAT IT CANNOT BE EITHER INCREASED OR DIMINISHED. ... they who are elected ... are effectually called unto faith in Christ ... NEITHER ARE ANY OTHER REDEEMED by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, BUT THE ELECT ONLY." This is erroneous human philosophy, and it makes out God to be a liar, but the Bible plainly says salvation is for whosoever will (John 3:16; Revelation 22:17). The Bible repeats this and repeats this and repeats this. The Bible says Christ "gave himself a ransom FOR ALL" (1 Timothy 2:6). He purchased even wicked false teachers who are lost and on their way to Hell; when these men deny the biblical Jesus Christ, the Bible says they deny "the Lord that bought them" (2 Peter 2:1).

So you do or dont believe in predestination as you describe?

 

[faceofbear]

[FONT=&quot]You are claiming grace for the lost that does not exist. This grace is not grace, it has no power to save, it's ineffectual and based on promiscuous love. [/FONT]

I disagree. Prevenient grace was even taught by Augustine, just that he believed prevenient grace was not resistible. The difference is that Arminius taught the grace WAS resistible, so, in those it saves, it is effectual by non-resistance and embracing the grace of God through faith. If God's love does not extend to all men then God's command for people to repent and believe in the gospel cannot be genuine because they cannot even come to God because God will not give them the grace to repent and believe unless He drew their number out of the lotto.

[FONT=&quot]Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Timothy 1:9[/FONT]

No quarrels. He has saved those by grace through faith as a gift, yet even a gift must be accepted and not rejected and the mere acceptance of that grace is a grace given acceptance and all glory goes to God from those He foreknew whom He predestined whom He gave grace before the foundations of the world.

[FONT=&quot]The grace of God is always effectual. The grace of God is found in the calling of His elect and in the regeneration of spirit dead in sin.[/FONT]

I'm not studied enough to debate this. I find instances where the grace of God seems rejectable in scriptures, but again, I don't know enough about Arminianism, Calvinism, or the Bible to state otherwise and I dare not say that it is not effectual, because it is effectual in those whom it saves -- no matter what ones theological stance is. I don't believe any man is capable of saving himself apart from effectual grace. But effectual grace is different from irresistible (which, as I said, I cannot argue otherwise).

[FONT=&quot]I would say I exalt grace, free grace, and that true grace is given by God. There is nothing a person can do that would result in their salvation, nothing. Salvation from beginning to end is the work of God is the author and finisher of our faith.
[/FONT]

You, Calvin, Arminius, and I, all agree.

No one has a parachute unless God gives them one. Some just think that they have one. Jump away.

Rather, does God pick and choose whom to push out of the plane without a parachute? Or does He place a parachute on the backs of all men unless they reject the free gift of a parachute? The question isn't whether God gives the parachute to some and not others, but whether God deliberately causes people to jump out of the plane without even an offer of a parachute -- and that, I would be lead to believe, is unjust (if man sins by necessity because God provides no grace to do otherwise) and unloving, but if it is true, that is fine with me. God can do as He pleases -- my mind just can't conceive or picture Christ ever doing that.

 

[daniel82]

Simple yes or no will work, and a brief explanation would be nice.


1 Peter 2:8

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[a]

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.


Christ is the stone btw....

their is always going to be people that are going to disobey the word of God just like there are always going to be people that follow the word but with everyone having free will their can't be any pre destination be cause were in control we can do right or do wrong even when we do right we can fall away but it is by gods grace were saved
my answer is No

 

[daniel82]

I disagree. Prevenient grace was even taught by Augustine, just that he believed prevenient grace was not resistible. The difference is that Arminius taught the grace WAS resistible, so, in those it saves, it is effectual by non-resistance and embracing the grace of God through faith. If God's love does not extend to all men then God's command for people to repent and believe in the gospel cannot be genuine because they cannot even come to God because God will not give them the grace to repent and believe unless He drew their number out of the lotto.



No quarrels. He has saved those by grace through faith as a gift, yet even a gift must be accepted and not rejected and the mere acceptance of that grace is a grace given acceptance and all glory goes to God from those He foreknew whom He predestined whom He gave grace before the foundations of the world.



I'm not studied enough to debate this. I find instances where the grace of God seems rejectable in scriptures, but again, I don't know enough about Arminianism, Calvinism, or the Bible to state otherwise and I dare not say that it is not effectual, because it is effectual in those whom it saves -- no matter what ones theological stance is. I don't believe any man is capable of saving himself apart from effectual grace. But effectual grace is different from irresistible (which, as I said, I cannot argue otherwise).



You, Calvin, Arminius, and I, all agree.



Rather, does God pick and choose whom to push out of the plane without a parachute? Or does He place a parachute on the backs of all men unless they reject the free gift of a parachute? The question isn't whether God gives the parachute to some and not others, but whether God deliberately causes people to jump out of the plane without even an offer of a parachute -- and that, I would be lead to believe, is unjust (if man sins by necessity because God provides no grace to do otherwise) and unloving, but if it is true, that is fine with me. God can do as He pleases -- my mind just can't conceive or picture Christ ever doing that.

the Sad truth is that there is no predestination when it comes to Gods Love God sent his Son to die for the World to have a Chance to repent and come to the Lord but like i was saying a child has no knoweledge of good or bad when it is born everything it knows it is taught so if that child as a child doesn't know God the Parent is to blame now if the child grows up in the church and Leaves the church it is their choice their choice so there is no predestination unless it comes from us

 

[JM]

I disagree. Prevenient grace was even taught by Augustine, just that he believed prevenient grace was not resistible. The difference is that Arminius taught the grace WAS resistible, so, in those it saves, it is effectual by non-resistance and embracing the grace of God through faith.

Exactly. The grace of God is effectual. The Arminian view reduces the unmerited favour of God as a reward for faith.

If God's love does not extend to all men then God's command for people to repent and believe in the gospel cannot be genuine because they cannot even come to God because God will not give them the grace to repent and believe unless He drew their number out of the lotto.

Which is why I posted the following, "I would never lie to someone. I would never say, "Jesus loves you SO MUCH, why won't you just accept him?" This is just a ploy to work up an emotional response. The truth of the Gospel is: Christ died to save sinners. If you believe then you are saved and you are saved BECAUSE He loves you so much. You see, the problem is in the humanistic rearranging of the proclamation of the word. You start at the end and work toward the beginning. You tell lost, God hating people that God loves them and died for them when scripture clearly tells us that Christ shed His blood for many, not all. All passages that deal with atonement are particular and not general. And the proclamation of the Gospel is declarative, not imperative."

But let's take it a little further. When Christ gave the command to Lazarus to come forth (who was dead long enough to "stinketh"), did he have the ability in himself to raise from the dead? John 11 Or the man with the withered (dried, faded, shrunk) hand was told to stretch it out, did he have the ability in himself, to do so? Matt. 12 Of course not. Are you able to, "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart?" Didn't think so, yet, we are commanded to do so. Deut. 6

No quarrels. He has saved those by grace through faith as a gift, yet even a gift must be accepted and not rejected and the mere acceptance of that grace is a grace given acceptance and all glory goes to God from those He foreknew whom He predestined whom He gave grace before the foundations of the world.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but it sounds like a lot of double talk to me. You're saying God learned who would accept the gift and therefore predestined them to salvation? God's knowledge is perfect and receives counsel from no one. The example of Lazarus applies here as well, his resurrection was an example of free grace. Did Lazarus have to accept the gift of resurrection to be raised? Nope.

I'm not studied enough to debate this. I find instances where the grace of God seems rejectable in scriptures, but again, I don't know enough about Arminianism, Calvinism, or the Bible to state otherwise and I dare not say that it is not effectual, because it is effectual in those whom it saves

Yes.

-- no matter what ones theological stance is. I don't believe any man is capable of saving himself apart from effectual grace. But effectual grace is different from irresistible (which, as I said, I cannot argue otherwise).

You have been arguing for the AmWay approach. God has a plan, He wants to save you, but it's up to you to make it work. You have to kick something into the pot to get it going.

Rather, does God pick and choose whom to push out of the plane without a parachute?

The people sitting on the plan are deaf and blind and cannot read the signs or hear the warning so they are happy to sit it out believing nothing is wrong.

Or does He place a parachute on the backs of all men unless they reject the free gift of a parachute?

The AmWay approach again. "God has done all He can do to save you, it's now up to you!" God wakes the passenger up so they can see and hear, gets the parachute on and they willing follow His command to follow Him to the door. (I'm getting tired of the parachute analogy. lol )

The question isn't whether God gives the parachute to some and not others, but whether God deliberately causes people to jump out of the plane without even an offer of a parachute

That's not the question. The scriptures clearly describe man as being hostile toward God, they hate God and would never follow Him or His commandments. Mankind is not sick in sin but dead in sin.

-- and that, I would be lead to believe, is unjust (if man sins by necessity because God provides no grace to do otherwise) and unloving, but if it is true, that is fine with me. God can do as He pleases -- my mind just can't conceive or picture Christ ever doing that.

Someone objected to Paul using the same idea, that it "wasn't fair!"

Here is the response:

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Romans 9:20-23

jm

 

[98cwitr]

their is always going to be people that are going to disobey the word of God just like there are always going to be people that follow the word but with everyone having free will their can't be any pre destination be cause were in control we can do right or do wrong even when we do right we can fall away but it is by gods grace were saved
my answer is No

Then please explain the scripture that is written and not general opinions about free will.

Other verses proving predestination (either for salvation, damnation, or life events):
Proverbs 16:9
Proverbs 20:14
Jeremiah 15:2
Jeremiah 43:11
Ezekiel 31:14
1 Corinthians 2:7
Colossians 2:22
1 Thessalonians 3:3
Romans 8:30
Ephesians 1:5,11

Im sure there are more, but that's what I've found so far.

Maybe I should use the word 'destiny' as opposed to predestination, but I see them as almost synonymous.

 

[Phileoeklogos]

Just to clarify my last post, I am very careful with the use of the word "predestination", especially in regards to the reprobate. I know the word is used and has been used by many others in reference to reprobation, foreordination of the sinful acts of men and judicial acts ordained to sinful men, but I try not to use it in that way because many will mistake it's use to mean double predestination or equal ultimacy.

So in regards to the sinful acts of men, yes they are fore-ordained, ie... the "disobeying" in 1 Peter 2:8 is fore-ordained, both the men and the act, but in such a way that God is not the author of the sinful act, thats why I don't like to use the term "predestined" in reference to such verses, because I know some will take that to mean that God is/was the causal agent of their sin.


I should have been more careful when I posted.

 

[Hentenza]

Rather, does God pick and choose whom to push out of the plane without a parachute? Or does He place a parachute on the backs of all men unless they reject the free gift of a parachute? The question isn't whether God gives the parachute to some and not others, but whether God deliberately causes people to jump out of the plane without even an offer of a parachute -- and that, I would be lead to believe, is unjust (if man sins by necessity because God provides no grace to do otherwise) and unloving, but if it is true, that is fine with me. God can do as He pleases -- my mind just can't conceive or picture Christ ever doing that.

Brother, I do not subscribe to the doctrine of predestination of the reprobate. There are just too many verses in scripture that debunk it, however, faith is the work of God not of man. I am not going to judge God even if He does predestine the reprobate. I am going to trust in Him that He, who has all wisdom, will be just.

 

[faceofbear]

Brother, I do not subscribe to the doctrine of predestination of the reprobate. There are just too many verses in scripture that debunk it, however, faith is the work of God not of man. I am not going to judge God even if He does predestine the reprobate. I am going to trust in Him that He, who has all wisdom, will be just.

100% agreed. But unless God's means of salvation is a possibility for all, and grace extends to all, logically God must predestine the reprobate. You cannot have one without the other. I do not believe faith is the work of man, nor have I EVER said that -- nor has ANYONE I've quoted. They've all ascribed faith to the divine grace of God.

In regards to judging God, as I've said, if that's how God does it, so be it. He is God. But I believe the Biblical identity of God cannot possibly operate in that way because goodness, love, mercy, and justness are His nature. And it would be contrary to love, goodness, mercy, and justness, at least my understanding of it. Therefore, unless my definitions are completely wrong, God is either those things, or He operates contrary to His nature. But I believe, that God's goodness, love, mercy, and justness reveal the glory of God -- not something which is contrary to His nature. But perhaps my understanding of those things are blinding, and if so, then my statement is out of ignorance.

As Dean has pointed out, Classical Arminianism (which is what the above is), is very similar to Calvinism -- so I don't believe we are really at odds.

 

[Hentenza]

100% agreed. But unless God's means of salvation is a possibility for all, and grace extends to all, logically God must predestine the reprobate. You cannot have one without the other.

I started reading your post but only got this far because there is a deep problem here. You are using your errant, finite "logic" to determine what is logical for an inerrant, infinite being. There is an infinite difference between an finite and an infinite being. Have you ever stop to think that maybe God has a few more logical options at His disposal that you might not know about? Just saying.

 

[JM]

100% agreed. But unless God's means of salvation is a possibility for all, and grace extends to all, logically God must predestine the reprobate. You cannot have one without the other. I do not believe faith is the work of man, nor have I EVER said that -- nor has ANYONE I've quoted. They've all ascribed faith to the divine grace of God.

Very true. Paul uses logic throughout Romans, giving propositions and drawing logical conclusions from those propositions. We can do the same using scriptural propositions, we need not retreat into an illogical corner, simply use scripture.

 

[Hentenza]

Very true. Paul uses logic throughout Romans, giving propositions and drawing logical conclusions from those propositions. We can do the same using scriptural propositions, we need not retreat into an illogical corner, simply use scripture.

But you can not prove the predestination of the reprobate using scripture because the tension between the two is not resolved in scripture.

 

[faceofbear]

Exactly. The grace of God is effectual. The Arminian view reduces the unmerited favour of God as a reward for faith.

Faith isn't a merit, it's receiving. Such a comparison would be like saying someone who wins the lottery was merited for their acceptance of the money. Receiving a gift isn't a merit, nor is faith a work of man so what is this "rewarding," if it is all by God's grace? How can I claim, as you are saying, that I saved myself by the acceptance of a gift from God, if even my acceptance was a response to divine grace of God and not my freewill?

Which is why I posted the following, "I would never lie to someone. I would never say, "Jesus loves you SO MUCH, why won't you just accept him?" This is just a ploy to work up an emotional response. The truth of the Gospel is: Christ died to save sinners. If you believe then you are saved and you are saved BECAUSE He loves you so much. You see, the problem is in the humanistic rearranging of the proclamation of the word. You start at the end and work toward the beginning. You tell lost, God hating people that God loves them and died for them when scripture clearly tells us that Christ shed His blood for many, not all. All passages that deal with atonement are particular and not general. And the proclamation of the Gospel is declarative, not imperative."

Agreed. However, my understanding of limited atonement, would be different. The atonement is conditional on those who by divine grace respond in repentance and faith in Christ through the hearing of the Gospel. Those who are covered by Christ's blood respond in repentance and faith due to a non-rejection of prevenient grace. Not that someone is redeemed before believing. It's like saying I'm a millionaire before I even receive a gift of 1 million dollars. I don't become a millionaire until the acceptance of the gift. And my acceptance of the gift isn't a merit, especially when the acceptance is due to divine grace.

But let's take it a little further. When Christ gave the command to Lazarus to come forth (who was dead long enough to "stinketh"), did he have the ability in himself to raise from the dead? John 11 Or the man with the withered (dried, faded, shrunk) hand was told to stretch it out, did he have the ability in himself, to do so? Matt. 12 Of course not. Are you able to, "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart?" Didn't think so, yet, we are commanded to do so. Deut. 6

Of course he didn't have to ability to raise from the dead except by divine grace. But, I can also point you to the blind man crying out, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me." He wasn't cured for calling out to Christ, but Christ curing him. In the same way it could be compared to faith. If I cry out, "Jesus have mercy on me a sinner," I will go home justified. Not because I cried out to God, but because Jesus justified me. The analogy you give, I've used, and it is good, but there are also instances where Jesus said, "Thy faith has saved you." My point being, I agree with you, but that we also cannot eliminate all other instances in scripture where humans had interaction with Christ before their curing.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but it sounds like a lot of double talk to me. You're saying God learned who would accept the gift and therefore predestined them to salvation?

The predestined are those whom God knew would respond to the Gospel in repentance and faith through divine grace and those who are in Christ Jesus (who was predestined). Don't be sorry for your bluntness. I have no quarrels with you. You are another that I believe to be very knowledgeable. Far more than myself. However, I believe, the "double talk" is due to my not explaining things properly. I suppose, in a sense, how to we explain the mysteries of God in proper human language outside of the Bible because in every instance which humans speak outside of the Bible, we corrupt the perfect meaning of God's word. But I'm also horrible at explaining things that my mind understands differently than I know how to say. Simply, I do not find Arminian theology that much different than Calvinism, only that I find the paradoxical conclusions in Calvinism are harder for me to digest than the paradoxical conclusions in Arminianism. But as mentioned before, I don't know my theological stance. I tend toward Calvinism, but I like arguing both sides just to see what other people believe and it helps me learn.

You have been arguing for the AmWay approach. God has a plan, He wants to save you, but it's up to you to make it work. You have to kick something into the pot to get it going.

Nope. I believe that it is all up to the grace of God, but that man cannot reject the grace of God. I do not believe that God loves all, as He loves the elect, but I do believe God wishes all to come to a saving knowledge of Christ, but man will continually resist the grace of God.

The AmWay approach again. "God has done all He can do to save you, it's now up to you!" God wakes the passenger up so they can see and hear, gets the parachute on and they willing follow His command to follow Him to the door. (I'm getting tired of the parachute analogy. lol )

lol.

That's not the question. The scriptures clearly describe man as being hostile toward God, they hate God and would never follow Him or His commandments. Mankind is not sick in sin but dead in sin.

Which is why all is ascribed to grace.

Someone objected to Paul using the same idea, that it "wasn't fair!"

Here is the response:

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Romans 9:20-23

jm

And I agree with Paul, but I disagree with the interpretation. I believe the objection is to the Gentiles being grafted in to God's plan when the Jews were His chosen people, it seems unfair that God should now accept outsiders, leaving some Jews cut out from the promises of God, which then Paul argues that they might be grafted back in if they come to faith. Which is similar to Ezekiel when they claim God is unjust for accepting those who are unrighteous and repent and that God is unjust for making those who were righteous but went back to their filt as unrighteous.

 

[JM]

But you can not prove the predestination of the reprobate using scripture because the tension between the two is not resolved in scripture.

I believe it is, others do as well...we disagree on the issue being unresolved.

Faith isn't a merit, it's receiving.

Right. It's something you have to do. Romans 4.5 tells us that faith is counted as righteousness, righteousness is a virtue and you're saying man produces this virtue and by this virtue salvation can be had.

Such a comparison would be like saying someone who wins the lottery was merited for their acceptance of the money.

These analogies are wearing me out. lol You can claim all kinds of things, anything you want...inconsistently. When Christ was asked, "What shall we do, that we might WORK the WORKS of God?" the answer was, "This is the WORK of God, that ye believe..." The gift of God, salvation AND faith is all God's doing. (see The Basics of Biblical Greek by Mounce, page 4) I'm not saying that faith is a work but that salvation and all that it includes is of God, beginning to end.

Agreed. However, my understanding of limited atonement, would be different.

It's like saying I'm a millionaire before I even receive a gift of 1 million dollars. I don't become a millionaire until the acceptance of the gift.

Why do you keep using analogies that have to do with winning money? lol (kidding) I limit the scope of the atonement, you limit the power. I'll say it again, the plan of salvation is only made available to those who are willing to kick start it with faith.

...the blind man crying out, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me." He wasn't cured for calling out to Christ...If I cry out, "Jesus have mercy on me a sinner," I will go home justified.

My point being, I agree with you, but that we also cannot eliminate all other instances in scripture where humans had interaction with Christ before their curing.

Again, I would state that faith is a gift of God, it's listed as a gift of the Holy Spirit and that it is counted as righteousness. This act of salvation, healing, curing, raising the dead, etc. is all of God. Man is passive in ALL of it UNTIL set free from sin by regeneration.

The predestined are those whom God knew would respond to the Gospel in repentance and faith through divine grace and those who are in Christ Jesus (who was predestined).

I have trouble with this idea for two reason:

Firstly, we both agree that God has perfect knowledge and that He lacks nothing, but your explanation would suggest that God's electing decree is based on man, God would have to learn who to elect from infinite man.

Secondly, man had not yet been created. All that would be, all that can be, must be decreed by God the creator of all things.

Many will deny predestination, election, etc. because they feel bad about this biblical truth, but you still have a problem to deal when they deny predestination. If predestination is based on foreknowledge then God still created a mass of people that would be sent to hell for not believing the Gospel. Another point, if Jesus died for everyone then God should give everyone a chance to accept the Gospel, but He doesn't. We all agree no salvation exists outside of Jesus Christ, so, the many pagan nations and peoples who never heard the Gospel are left without the means by which to be saved...

... And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ..."

"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)

Nope. I believe that it is all up to the grace of God, but that man cannot reject the grace of God. I do not believe that God loves all, as He loves the elect, but I do believe God wishes all to come to a saving knowledge of Christ, but man will continually resist the grace of God.

Did these folks have a choice or a chance to participate in the Divine AmWay program?

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,” Prov. 16:4. [The wicked were MADE for evil.]

“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,” I Peter 2:8. [Appointed to stumble.]

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4.

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,” Rev. 17:17.

We also see “vessels of wrath” which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,” were “endured with much long suffering” in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power known”; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory” in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory” upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).

“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,” Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” Rom. 2:5. [God gave them up.]

“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,” II Thess. 2:11.

“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,” Acts 13:41.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,” John 12:39, 40.

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,” Matt. 25:41

“For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,” John 9:39.

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,” Matt. 11:25.

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine,” Matt. 7:6. [Directing the Apostles were to preach...why?]

The Holy Spirit has been pleased to repeat six times over in the New Testament this passage from Isaiah (Matt. 13:14, 15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Acts 28:27: Rom. 11:9, 10).

“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day,” Deut. 2:30.

“For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.” Joshua 11:20.

“For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth,” Rom. 9:17 (see also Ex. 9:16)

We can be sure at least one was elected never to come to Christ, the son of perdition in John 17, he was lost for fulfill Scripture.

And I agree with Paul, but I disagree with the interpretation. I believe the objection is to the Gentiles being grafted in to God's plan when the Jews were His chosen people...

So, you're saying God predestined the Jews, that He elected the Jewish race to salvation?

jm

 

[faceofbear]

So, you're saying God predestined the Jews, that He elected the Jewish race to salvation?

jm

I pretty much agree with everything you said, it's just the semantics in my explanation that we are in disagreement on. I believe that salvation is by grace alone. That is, that from beginning to end it is God who works in the sinner by grace, not by man's will, but by grace, pre-conversion, conversion, and post conversion.

In regards to this quote, the Jews were His chosen people, but as of now the Gentiles have been grafted in through faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, we could say, God elected those who have faith in Jesus Christ to salvation. In the same sense one can enter into Jesus Christ as one could enter into Judaism (it wouldn't be fun -- but you could). It is not as if the Jewish nation was restricted by all outsiders, simply that outsiders had to convert. In the same sense the unbeliever must convert by faith in Jesus Christ -- and only then do they have God's guarantee of unconditional Sonship love, until then He is long suffering towards them wishing that they'd repent (but there is no need for Him to wish if His grace is irresistible, so, is it resistible -- that's the question where Augustinian says no, pre-Augustinian and Arminian theologians say, yes)?

That is a genuine question, and personally, I have not resolved it myself. I find people resisting grace, I find that people can miss the grace of God, but I also find, paradoxically, irresistible grace at work.

For me, it is easier to accept a freewill paradox in that man doesn't have libertarian freewill (if all is foreknown), than it is to accept the paradox that God does not cause no one to be tempted or sin, yet man would only be tempted or sin due to God.

Like I said, if that's how it works, oh well, I'm just a man. But it is difficult to digest. If it isn't true, great, I'm glad, but again... I'm just a man, so my approval does not matter. God can do as He pleases. Even if that means I'm unconditionally elected to reprobation, so be it, God will get the glory from my deserved torment.

Hey look, a post without lame analogies.