Does 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 teach that we are not saved by faith?

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Actually most that read what I posted was word for word what the scriptures state, and would also read that good works will follow those who are saved and sealed unto the day of redemption. If this is not being accomplished in the professor of faith, they were the false ones, not the scriptures. Jesus said, Matt 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ His word does not return to Him void. We must examine the scriptures to see if it agrees with what God says. When someone says something is wrong I always want to see how the scripture I state is misapplied, and often all I see is opinion without showing how it was misapplied. Ps 119:89Forever, O Lord, Your word is settled in heaven.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).


And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.
 
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For who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. First, we are "Initally Saved" and "Ultimately Saved" by God's grace. A believer does not work in coming to Christ to get saved. They admit they are a sinner and ask Jesus to forgive them and believe the gospel and are saved. But from that point, they have to continue in God's good ways. A believer also gets clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 1:9) and not by doing a good work. But I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).
 
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SeventyOne

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Wow. So I am swine? That is a horrible thing to imply in regards to a fellow believer in Jesus Christ. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, we learn that he ate with the swine (Luke 15:16). The Prodigal Son was not actually a swine himself even though he returned to riotous living (sin).

Swine are those who are unbelievers in Jesus Christ. They are atheists and agnostics. They mock God's Word and seek to attack it. So giving "precious secrets or deep knowledge of the things of God" to atheists is how I would see "do not cast your pearls before swine." Also, I would consider giving testimonies of how God worked miracles in my own life to atheists would also apply the Scriptural phrase, "neither cast ye your pearls before swine", as well. Why? Well, they don't care. But a believer would care about these things because they regard the Word of God and they regard how God works in the life of a believer. So I would say that you are misunderstanding the verse, "neither cast ye your pearls before swine."

Jesus said,
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." (Matthew 7:6).

The Gentiles at that time were dogs because they were considered as being unbelievers in God generally. Remember when Jesus said to the Canaaanite woman? He said, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." (Matthew 15:26). Gentiles were generally unbelievers, but she believed, so this changed the situation.

Also, Matthew 7:6 says that these swines or dogs seek to "rend you" (i.e. attack you). This is what unbelievers do to believers in Jesus Christ. Atheist countries (Like North Korea and Sweden) oppress Christians and persecute them. I am a Biblical pacifist (Because of what Jesus and His followers teach). So you have nothing to fear from me but my love and my quoting of Scripture to you.

Again, don't take it personally. I've seen enough to know that you are just someone who regularly rejects sound arguments. It's just who you are.

If you can give me a reason why I should spend large amounts of time on you saying things you've already rejected over and over, then do so. Otherwise, you'll just have to deal with me not caring to waste my time on you.
 
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SeventyOne

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Yet nothing substantially right yet...... apart from the vine, nothing can you accomplish, no one can....
opposed to God's Word, no benefit, sorry.....

Your opinion doesn't determine substance or benefit. Take it or leave it. I don't care.
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.

Thanks for posting these verses, they went right along with the ones I showed that supports salvation by grace alone and that good works follow salvation and are not the cause of salvation>:clap:
James 2:17 went with the one I posted that faith without works is a dead faith.
Jam 4:6 shows we humble ourselves when we come to Him by faith for salvation.
Heb 12:14 We become holy and set aside by grace through faith and received eternal salvation.
1 Cor 16:22 shows that if we love Him we keep His commandment as Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship created unto good works. They agree with the scripture I posted and verifies that all scripture walk hand in hand with one another.
 
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Again, don't take it personally. I've seen enough to know that you are just someone who regularly rejects sound arguments. It's just who you are.

If you can give me a reason why I should spend large amounts of time on you saying things you've already rejected over and over, then do so. Otherwise, you'll just have to deal with me not caring to waste my time on you.

Your suggesting that I am swine is you trying to make it personal (Otherwise you wouldnt' have said it). I believe you cannot explain the verses I brought up because you honestly do not know how. We are on a Christian forums section where other Christians could be helped by your words. But you are not going to do that because you really don't have the answers to defend against what I said with Scripture. It's that plain and simple. So let's not pretend like you have any real answers here against what I said with Scripture, because you dont. Christians are supposed to feed the sheep. Your not doing that here.
 
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Thanks for posting these verses, they went right along with the ones I showed that supports salvation by grace alone and that good works follow salvation and are not the cause of salvation>:clap:
James 2:17 went with the one I posted that faith without works is a dead faith.
Jam 4:6 shows we humble ourselves when we come to Him by faith for salvation.
Heb 12:14 We become holy and set aside by grace through faith and received eternal salvation.
1 Cor 16:22 shows that if we love Him we keep His commandment as Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship created unto good works. They agree with the scripture I posted and verifies that all scripture walk hand in hand with one another.

I never said that works is the cause of salvation. I believe God's grace is what saves us initially and ultimately; Works are the next step or stage in the salvation process. But salvation is not by grace alone. For faith without works is dead. A dead faith cannot access the saving grace of God. James says we are justified by works and not by faith only. So works play a part in our salvation and not by grace alone. So you are still not getting what the Bible is saying. For you cannot say that we are saved by Grace alone unless you think you can sleep with prostitutes, steal, murder, and oppress the poor and still be saved as long as you have a belief on Jesus. The condition is living holy and being fruitful. You yourself are secretly admitting to that fact but you are not openly admitting to it. You are stuck in a circle of false logic, my friend.
 
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samir

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Our only disagreement appears to be that you think we are not saved by works. While on the one hand, to an extent this is true because we did not have to do any works to be initially saved and we did not get clean of our sins by doing works but by confessing our sins to Jesus Christ and by believing that He is our Savior; However, on the other hand, we do know that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. So we have to obey God and be fruitful for His Kingdom. For the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness.

I'm saying no works to be saved initially but works are required to get to heaven since only those who love God will be saved (and those who love God obey His commandments).

Side Note:

Please take note that I believe that all righteousness a believer does is God (Christ) working in them to do good things. So a believer cannot take the credit for their own righteousness alone. A believer merely cooperates with the work that Lord desires to do through them.

Grace is what allows people to believe and do good but God doesn't turn people into robots and do good works for them.
 
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aiki

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And verse 8 says,

"This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." (Titus 3:8).

Why must they be careful to maintain good works? They are good and profitable unto men.

How is this good and profitable unto men (like ourselves)?

21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."
(James 1:21-22).

And here is some context to Titus 3, as well.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

So you can deny God by a lack of works.

None of this does anything to change or qualify the direct and clear statement made in Titus 3:5

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us."

Titus 2:11-12 tells us that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world. Granted, I believe that we are saved by the regeneration and washing of the Holy Ghost, but I also believe we are saved by cooperating with God, too.

And in this belief you have embraced a false Gospel. The Bible couldn't be clearer about this point: We are not saved by anything we do; our salvation is entirely God's doing, "not of works lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:9)

God does not force us to be saved. Nor does God desire only some to be saved, too. God wants all men to repent (Even though He knows that will not happen). In other words, the grace of God could not teach us to deny ungodliness if salvation was some kind of forced regeneration.

This is a non sequitur. Why could God not teach a person to deny ungodliness even if He forced their salvation? I don't see how the latter would prevent the former.

I don't, of course, believe God forces salvation, but His power to persuade us to salvation and His foreknowledge of our response to His drawing (not forcing) work make our salvation inevitable.

You wrote: Also, it is true that we are not saved by works of righteousness WE have done because it is the Lord Jesus Christ (GOD) who is working in you to do righteous things.

and: ...I also believe we are saved by cooperating with God, too.

You can't have it both ways. If we are not saved by works, as Scripture unequivocally states, then cooperating with God has nothing to do with our salvation. The good works our salvation produces are the work of God's Spirit in us, but those works are the fruit or consequence of our salvation and not the means of salvation itself. As I said, an apple tree bears fruit because it is an apple tree, not in order to be an apple tree.

This is talking about how we are "Initially Saved" or "Ultimately Saved."
This is not talking about the Sanctification process that follows after one is saved by God's grace.

Our sanctification is the result of our salvation, not the means of it.

A believer does not do any works when they come to the faith to be saved. They repent and believe Jesus and they are saved in that moment. If a believer sins again, they can confess their sins to Jesus and be forgiven. So yes. We are Initially and Ultimately Saved by God's grace and not of works. But that does not mean works or holiness does not play a part in our salvation.

As I said, you can't be both "a" and "non-a" at the same time. An entirely red ball cannot also be an entirely black ball at the same time and in the same way. 1+1 cannot equal 2 and also 3 or any other sum. If our salvation is not by our works, then our works cannot play a part in our salvation.

Even if you believe these works are forced upon an individual by God (like your idea of God making somebody into a productive apple tree).

The idea of fruit being forced is not inherent in the analogy of an apple tree bearing apples. Rather, apples from an apple tree are the natural consequence of the tree being an apple tree. An apple tree does not force out apples onto its branches; the growth of apple tree branches and their fruit-bearing is not a violent wresting of the natural state of the branches by the main body of the tree. Likewise, there is no forcing God's Spirit does in bringing forth the peacable fruit of righteousness from us, either, only the natural, subtle and profound fruit born of our resting or abiding in Christ (Jn. 15:1-5).

Works and holiness would still be a requirement for salation (that God fulfills on your behalf by force regenerating a person). A person would still need to actively show these works and live holy as per meeting the requirement of showing that they are saved. For they cannot be unfruitful for God in this life and live in sin also still be saved.

If our salvation is not by works, as the Bible plainly states, then "works and holiness" cannot be a requirement for salvation. It's "a" or "non-a," not both.

In any case, I don't hold to the notion that one can be saved and then live willfully and comfortably in sin. I don't see that Scripture teaches that at all. As I have already pointed out, a righteous, holy life is the natural consequence of genuine salvation. I would go so far as to say it is the inevitable consequence of true salvation, but I would not go so far as to assert that righteous, holy living is necessary to salvation. Such an idea the Bible flatly denies.

If we are truly not saved by works to the fullest extent, then no sin can separate you from God and you can sleep with prostitutes, steal, murder, hate, oppress the poor and still be saved.

But why would you, if you've been truly saved? I don't see that such living would be possible when one is truly indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God. Everything I read in Scripture about the effect of the Holy Spirit upon the person in whom he has come to dwell tells me such a scenario as you describe above would not be possible in a persistent, willful way. The conviction of God's Spirit, the loss of joyful fellowship with God, the discipline of God upon His wayward children - all these things would, I think, quite forestall any consistently and persistently profligate living in one who is genuinely born-again.

Obviously you do not think a believer can do these things and be saved. So this means works (good works) are necessary for salvation.

This is another non sequitur. It does not follow that because I believe the former statement that the latter must therefore be true. See above.

It is irrelevant if you believe either God or you fulfills these requirements for salvation.

I couldn't disagree more! It absolutely matters! What one believes in this regard determines whether or not one is holding to the true Gospel or a false one!

But seeing that we do not see most believers in Christ walking perfectly as Christ (God) did, it is a safe assumption that God is not forcing them to be a certain way.

This isn't the only possible conclusion one can make from the less than perfect way in which believers live. I think many - if not most - people claiming to be saved actually are not. Jesus indicated as much when he said that "narrow was the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few there be who find it." (Matt. 7:14)

God is not going to force us to be good. We have to actively cooperate with the good God desires to do through us.

Yes, but I think it is more accurate to say we receive from God and then in His enabling power act in accord with His will rather than to say we "cooperate with Him." God is not your co-pilot; He is your life.

But one also needs to cooperate with the Lord working in them, too.

Does the branch in the vine cooperate with the vine? No. It has no life, no existence, apart from the vine. The branch is entirely dependent upon the vine for everything and as it continues in intimate connection with the vine, the life-giving sap of the vine flows into it so that the branch naturally grows and produces fruit. It isn't a matter of cooperation, then, between the branch and the vine, but of full and complete union. This is what Paul was getting at when he wrote,

Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.


Why would God's Word tell us these things if they are all commands that we would automatically obey? It makes no sense in the Eternal Security universe.

Sure it does. Paul explains the situation in detail:

Romans 7:18-25
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.


Our new life in Christ does not render us entirely free of our fleshly impulses and the sinful habits of the past. Our second birth does give us freedom from bondage to these things, however, and the wherewithal to live "godly in Christ Jesus." We will feel the force of sinful habit upon us and the impulse of the flesh to wicked indulgence and so God commands us to obey, to act in accord with who we really are in Christ, and not yield to the inertia of who we used to be.
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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I never said that works is the cause of salvation. I believe God's grace is what saves us initially and ultimately; Works are the next step or stage in the salvation process. But salvation is not by grace alone. For faith without works is dead. A dead faith cannot access the saving grace of God. James says we are justified by works and not by faith only. So works play a part in our salvation and not by grace alone. So you are still not getting what the Bible is saying. For you cannot say that we are saved by Grace alone unless you think you can sleep with prostitutes, steal, murder, and oppress the poor and still be saved as long as you have a belief on Jesus. The condition is living holy and being fruitful. You yourself are secretly admitting to that fact but you are not openly admitting to it. You are stuck in a circle of false logic, my friend.

Once again, good works can only come after receiving the Lord, agreed? But salvation you say is not by grace alone, and that is not taught in the scriptures anywhere. What is taught even by the verses from James or anywhere, is that if one says they have faith and do not have any good works that follow that faith is a dead faith. Saving faith will always be followed by good works, it is progressive depending on the growth of each saint. But works after salvation have nothing to do with getting saved. They are the result of getting saved. If you read again the verses that have been shown you will see no where does it say salvation is not by grace through faith alone. Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. It can not be said any clearer. Read those 2 verses one more time, does scripture not mean exactly what it says or not? James 1:16-18 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
 
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Soyeong

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This is how works based righteousness follows however. People make up commandments based on writings and these take the place of the actual teachings.
.
The only righteousness that will cut it is faith based righteousness, because without faith it is impossible to please him.

Indeed, works based righteousness is not really righteousness at all because it is done for the wrong motive, and it has always been a perversion of God's Law.
 
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Once again, good works can only come after receiving the Lord, agreed? But salvation you say is not by grace alone, and that is not taught in the scriptures anywhere. What is taught even by the verses from James or anywhere, is that if one says they have faith and do not have any good works that follow that faith is a dead faith. Saving faith will always be followed by good works, it is progressive depending on the growth of each saint. But works after salvation have nothing to do with getting saved. They are the result of getting saved. If you read again the verses that have been shown you will see no where does it say salvation is not by grace through faith alone. Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. It can not be said any clearer. Read those 2 verses one more time, does scripture not mean exactly what it says or not? James 1:16-18 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Yes. Ephesians 2:8-9 is 100% true. We are "Initially Saved" and or "Ultimately Saved" by God's grace and not works. For we did not do any works to get saved initially but we called upon the Lord Jesus and believed in Him for salvation. We also can get clean (forgiven) if we stumble into sin again by confessing our sins to Jesus (1 John 1:9). However, that does not eliminate the other aspect or step in the salvation process (i.e. Sanctification). You have to read the whole counsel of the Word of God and not just isolate verses or passages that you would prefer to see. Jesus says, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). In Matthew 7:23, Jesus says to certain believers who did many wonderful works to depart from Him because they were also working iniquity or sin. Jesus does not say to depart from Him because they did not have a belief on Him alone as their Savior (while they ignored their sin). The whole point of Matthew 7 is about doing what Jesus says. For in Matthew 7:26-27, Jesus says that whosoever does not do what he says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Yet, 1 Corinthians 16:22 says that if any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ let him be Anathema (accursed) Maranatha.

You also have to realize that Paul is arguing against the false Pharisee religion (that he used to be a part of), as well. In that religion, it was all about works and law and there was no grace and no Savior. (See the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee). However, Jesus condemned this false religion by saying to it's followers (i.e. the Pharisees) that they ignored the weightier matter of the Law like justice, love, faith, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42). After Christ's death, the Pharisees still followed the ceremonial laws and judicial laws within the Old Written Law (that are now no longer binding, like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, and the laws on animal sacrifices). So the Pharisees still desired men to be circumcised to be saved. However, Paul said, "what profit is there in circumcision?" (Romans 3:1). Paul said, "if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." But Paul was not against the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc.). For Paul says, "Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul answers that question with, "God forbid." (Romans 6:1). Paul says that the "righteousness of the Law" might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4). What is the "righteousness of the Law" that we fulfill? To love your neighbor (Which is the same as the Moral Law: Like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10). Paul says, "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. (Romans 6:22). Why do you think God says this to a particular believer? "His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23). Yet, why do you think the Lord condemns the unprofitable servant with the following words? "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30). Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). So when a person says that they are saved by God's grace alone and they do not mention anything about living holy and fruitful as a part of that, they are giving people a license to sin or a license for immorality (of which Jude 1:4 warns us against).

In fact, the very reason Christ gave Himself for us (i.e. died for us) is so as to make us holy, blameless (Ephesians 5:25-27), and to redeem us from all iniquity and so that we can be zealous of good works (TItus 2:14). That is the purpose or reason Christ died for us. To make us into a holy people while we are living here upon this Earth. For 1 Peter 4:2 says that we should not live the rest of our lives to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God. This is in context to ceasing from sin (1 Peter 4:1).

You cannot be saved by God's grace alone unless you believe you can sleep with prostitutes, murder, abuse children, steal, refuse to spread the gospel, and oppress the poor and yet you can still be saved somehow magically all because you have a belief on Jesus. That would be being saved by God's grace alone because it would not take into account holy living at all as a part of saying someone was saved or not. You want holiness and fruitfulness to be in a believer's life to say that this is a true believer who is really saved, but you are not wanting to admit that it is truly a part of the salvation process. For even in your belief, you recognize that a true saved believer will live holy and do fruitful things for God. But you don't say that a believer lives holy and does fruitful things for God so as to be saved. Does this mean a believer can sin and not repent of just one really bad sin (like lying or lusting after a woman) and still be saved as long as they generally live holy? Can believers justify a little bit of sin? One can surely rationalize this to themselves if they truly believe they are 100% saved by God's grace alone. A believer can think they can do drugs every once a while or indulge in inappropriate content and that would be okay with God. Nobody is perfect, right? You can sin a little, right? As long as they generally live holy, right? See, the problem with your belief is that it makes for an allowance for sin. Yet, Jesus never made any allowance for it. He said if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says that if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). John says if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer and no eternal life abides in you (1 John 3:15).
 
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None of this does anything to change or qualify the direct and clear statement made in Titus 3:5

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us."

This is talking about entrance into God's plan of salvation. We are saved not by works of righteousness we have done but by His mercy He saved us; This is our acceptance of Christ and believing in His death and resurrection. For it talks about how we are also saved by the WASHING and REGENERATION of the Holy Ghost in Titus 3:5, too (Words that you conveniently left out). So Titus 3:5-7 is talking about Initial Salvation! Verse 8 is talking about Sanctification. But you have to isolate this verse on the words you prefer to see and focus a laser beam on them (Ignoring the rest of the Bible). When a person admits they are a sinner and comes to Christ and believes he died and was raise on their behalf they are not believing they are saved by works of righteousness that they have done. They are washed and regenerated in that moment. In addition, if you were to skip back and read Titus 1:16, you would also have to realize that a person can deny God by a lack of works, too. In other words, your Soteriology only works if you ignore the rest of what Scripture says (i.e. the rest of Titus 3:5 and Titus 1:16).

You said:
And in this belief you have embraced a false Gospel. The Bible couldn't be clearer about this point: We are not saved by anything we do; our salvation is entirely God's doing, "not of works lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:9)

Again, this is talking about Initial Salvation. It saying how we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works when we admit we are a sinner and ask Jesus to forgive us of our sins, believing in His death and resurrection. It is another gospel to teach that Jesus did not die so as to make us holy, blameless, and zealous of good works (See Ephesians 5:25-27) (Titus 2:14). For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world. Verse 9 (Ephesians 2:9) is talking about the entrance. We are not saved by works when we come to God. We are saved by God's grace. From that point on, verse 10 (Which you conveniently leave out again) says that we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Jesus says in Matthew 19:17, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.

You said:
This is a non sequitur. Why could God not teach a person to deny ungodliness even if He forced their salvation? I don't see how the latter would prevent the former.

I don't, of course, believe God forces salvation, but His power to persuade us to salvation and His foreknowledge of our response to His drawing (not forcing) work make our salvation inevitable.

So if salvation is inevitable for those who are saved, then how do you not see that as forced salvation? Inevitable suggests that it is the only outcome. When a person has one outcome or choice before them, then that would be something that is forced. So you believe in a contradiction.

You said:
You wrote: Also, it is true that we are not saved by works of righteousness WE have done because it is the Lord Jesus Christ (GOD) who is working in you to do righteous things.

and: ...I also believe we are saved by cooperating with God, too.

So you don't believe you are saved by cooperating with God? If that is true, do you believe that a Christian does not have to accept Jesus as their Savior to be saved or repent? Do you believe in Univeralism? Do you believe that can live in sin and still be saved on some level? Clearly you do not believe in holy living because you said, "Christ does not render us entirely free of our fleshly impulses and the sinful habits of the past." However, you cannot live holy if you believe you are slave to sin. That is a contradiction. That would be like a drunkard claiming he is sober free because he says he only drinks a lot less now then he used to.

You said:
You can't have it both ways. If we are not saved by works, as Scripture unequivocally states, then cooperating with God has nothing to do with our salvation. The good works our salvation produces are the work of God's Spirit in us, but those works are the fruit or consequence of our salvation and not the means of salvation itself. As I said, an apple tree bears fruit because it is an apple tree, not in order to be an apple tree.

But by what you said at the end of this post, you said you still battle with sin and are a slave to it. Sin or bad fruit is mixed with good fruit? Jesus says we will know a tree by it's fruit and He said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Also, in the Parable of the Sower, we learn that it is the condition of the heart that determines the growth of the tree and fruit. What is the condition of the heart is at question on whether or not somebody is going to be fruitful or not. Those who fell away due to persecution and the care of this life (and riches) are those who believed for a while. They received the gospel with joy, but they did not endure in their faith. A tree is only as good as the soil that nourishes it. We as humans can nourish good fruit by the type of soil (heart condition) we have towards God.

You said:
Our sanctification is the result of our salvation, not the means of it.

Sanctification is not an automatic thing that happens entirely for everyone who repents and believes in Jesus. We know that in 1 Timothy 5 that believing younger widows can cast off their first faith (1 Timothy 5:12). For the widow that lives in pleasure is dead (spiritually) while she lives (physically) (1 Timothy 5:6). For some widows are already turned aside after Satan. (1 Timothy 5:15). Okay. Let's get something straight here. You cannot turn aside after Satan if you are already within his grip. You cannot depart Houston airport unless you are in Houston airport. You cannot cast off your first faith unless you have faith.

Hebrews 3 says,
12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Hebrews 3:12-13).

Take heed lest there by any of you have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.

Okay. Again, you cannot depart from the living God unless you were once with God. You cannot depart from Houston airport unless you were once in Houston airport. Verse 13 follows up with saying do not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. What can be hardened? Our hearts by having an evil heart of unbelief. Sin can harden a believer's heart and make them depart from the living God.

So Sanctification is not some kind of guaranteed thing for every believer who receives God's grace. In fact, by what you said, how exactly are you in the Sanctification process? Do you find you are living more holy? But how is that possible if you are still a slave to sin? It makes no sense. Agan, you believe in yet another contradiction.

You said:
As I said, you can't be both "a" and "non-a" at the same time. An entirely red ball cannot also be an entirely black ball at the same time and in the same way. 1+1 cannot equal 2 and also 3 or any other sum. If our salvation is not by our works, then our works cannot play a part in our salvation.

That is because Ephesians 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5-8 are talking about Initial Salvation and they are not talking about Sanctification (Which follows after one is saved by God's grace). Being quickened with Christ (Ephesians 2:5) happens at Initial Salvation. Washing and regeneration (Titus 3:5) happens at Initial Salvation. Hence, why you are confused and you trying to equate Initial Salvation with Continued Salvation or the next step or stage in the Salvation process (i.e. Sanctification).

You said:
The idea of fruit being forced is not inherent in the analogy of an apple tree bearing apples. Rather, apples from an apple tree are the natural consequence of the tree being an apple tree. An apple tree does not force out apples onto its branches; the growth of apple tree branches and their fruit-bearing is not a violent wresting of the natural state of the branches by the main body of the tree. Likewise, there is no forcing God's Spirit does in bringing forth the peacable fruit of righteousness from us, either, only the natural, subtle and profound fruit born of our resting or abiding in Christ (Jn. 15:1-5).

Jesus says, "Abide in me." You have to abide in Christ. We do this by picking up our cross, denying ourselves, and by following Him.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

The good fruit is from the Lord. So we can only bring forth good fruit if we CHOOSE to abide in Christ by obeying His commands.

5 "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:5-6).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

You said:
If our salvation is not by works, as the Bible plainly states, then "works and holiness" cannot be a requirement for salvation. It's "a" or "non-a," not both.

In any case, I don't hold to the notion that one can be saved and then live willfully and comfortably in sin. I don't see that Scripture teaches that at all. As I have already pointed out, a righteous, holy life is the natural consequence of genuine salvation. I would go so far as to say it is the inevitable consequence of true salvation, but I would not go so far as to assert that righteous, holy living is necessary to salvation. Such an idea the Bible flatly denies.

Again, this is a contradiction. You cannot say that holiness and works of a believer is a necessary mark of showing a truly saved person if it is not truly a means of salvation in any way. That is false logic. If holiness and works are not necessary for salvation, then you can live in sin and still be saved. Then again, you said below in this post that you can struggle with sin and still be saved. How exactly is that holy living again by struggling with sin? Jesus says we cannot serve two masters. Scripture says a double minded man is double minded in all his ways.

You said:
But why would you, if you've been truly saved? I don't see that such living would be possible when one is truly indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God. Everything I read in Scripture about the effect of the Holy Spirit upon the person in whom he has come to dwell tells me such a scenario as you describe above would not be possible in a persistent, willful way. The conviction of God's Spirit, the loss of joyful fellowship with God, the discipline of God upon His wayward children - all these things would, I think, quite forestall any consistently and persistently profligate living in one who is genuinely born-again.

Notice how you said that I would do those things? This is a false accusation. Nowhere am I suggesting that I would sleep with prostitutes, oppress the poor, and believe in Jesus with the thinking I was saved. I am suggesting that this is the line of thinking for the person who truly believes they are saved by God's grace alone and really mean it. Oh, and there are people who do think this way. I have talked to them both in person and online.

Anyways, a person can harden their heart by the deceitfulness of sin. It is not impossible for a person to resist God after they had them in their life. Saul is a great example of this. He once had the Spirit of God, but the Lord departed from him. Why? Because of his sins (of course).

You said:
This isn't the only possible conclusion one can make from the less than perfect way in which believers live. I think many - if not most - people claiming to be saved actually are not. Jesus indicated as much when he said that "narrow was the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few there be who find it." (Matt. 7:14)

Context! Jesus said to those who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (sin) (Matthew 7:23). Jesus says in Matthew 7:26-27 that if anyone does not do what He says, they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. The narrow way is not OSAS. It is easy for people to think they can sin and still be saved. In fact, most here in America believe in OSAS.

You said:
Yes, but I think it is more accurate to say we receive from God and then in His enabling power act in accord with His will rather than to say we "cooperate with Him." God is not your co-pilot; He is your life.

Christ (GOD) lives inside a person; However, can two walk together unless they be in agreement? (Amos 3:3).

You said:
Does the branch in the vine cooperate with the vine? No. It has no life, no existence, apart from the vine. The branch is entirely dependent upon the vine for everything and as it continues in intimate connection with the vine, the life-giving sap of the vine flows into it so that the branch naturally grows and produces fruit. It isn't a matter of cooperation, then, between the branch and the vine, but of full and complete union. This is what Paul was getting at when he wrote,

No. Jesus says we are to abide in Him. It is a command. It does not automatically happen. A vine can only grow if it is watered and it has the proper soil. Remember, the condition of your heart from the parable of the sower that I told you about?

You said:
Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Right, so if Christ lived in Paul, then that means he could not have sinned. But you don't believe that (Which is evident by the next passage you are quoting).

You said:
Sure it does. Paul explains the situation in detail:

Romans 7:18-25
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.


Our new life in Christ does not render us entirely free of our fleshly impulses and the sinful habits of the past. Our second birth does give us freedom from bondage to these things, however, and the wherewithal to live "godly in Christ Jesus." We will feel the force of sinful habit upon us and the impulse of the flesh to wicked indulgence and so God commands us to obey, to act in accord with who we really are in Christ, and not yield to the inertia of who we used to be.

In Romans 7:14-24 Paul is recounting his experience of struggling with sin as a Pharisee who was under the Old Law (when he was Saul). It is why he thanks Jesus Christ that he is now delivered from his body of death in verse 25. It is why he LATER says in Romans 8,

5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:5-8).

Paul says that they that are of the Spirit do mind the things of the Spirit and they that are of the flesh do mind the things of the flesh. Obviously Paul was not minding the things of the Spirit but he was minding the things of the flesh in Romans 7:14-24. For the carnal mind is at enmity with God. For they that are in the flesh (sin) cannot please God. Please take note that 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh (sin) and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. This is not true if one is a slave to sin. Jesus said, he that sins is a slave to sin. Jesus said this to the Pharisees and he did not say this in a favorable way towards them, either.

As for your quoting of Galatians 5:17: Again, you quote the verse out of context.

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:17).

Did you see that? Scripture is telling you to walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. But you believe you will always fulfill the lusts of the flesh, which runs contrary to this Scripture!
 
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kjw47

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I recently made a topic about how we are saved by faith and this was brought up in another thread and I thought that it would be interesting to discuss in a separate thread. 1 Cor 6:9-10 reads:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Now does this teach that we are not saved by our faith? Or that there are conditions to our faith? We must not be sexually immoral, commit idolatry, adultry (Which is a difficult one Jesus said that to even look at a woman in lust is adultery), Homosexual, a thief, a drunk, or swindlers? Not to disagree with Paul but, I thought that the law was covered by love in the NC? Or is these verses teaching that a true faith would not exude these kinds of things? Just like a true faith would show works and a love for God and others? I also notice in the next verse it says

"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Does that mean that people who were washed and baptized by the Holy Spirit that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 doesn't even apply to them?

Discuss.


1Cor 6:9-11--Gal 5:19-21---- Both spots teach if one is practicing one of these sins--They will NOT enter Gods kingdom--This applys to all. Jesus showed us--No matter what one thinks they do for him( or love him, have faith in him or believe on him) If they are a worker of iniquity( practiced or willfull sin) he doesn't even know them-Matt 7:21-23)--Many of these teachers( 2Cor 11:12-15) are assuring ones they are saved or born again---but it is not truth. No mortal knows if another will be saved--only by theory.
 
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kjw47

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Yes. Ephesians 2:8-9 is 100% true. We are "Initially Saved" and or "Ultimately Saved" by God's grace and not works. For we did not do any works to get saved initially but we called upon the Lord Jesus and believed in Him for salvation. We also can get clean (forgiven) if we stumble into sin again by confessing our sins to Jesus (1 John 1:9). However, that does not eliminate the other aspect or step in the salvation process (i.e. Sanctification). You have to read the whole counsel of the Word of God and not just isolate verses or passages that you would prefer to see. Jesus says, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). In Matthew 7:23, Jesus says to certain believers who did many wonderful works to depart from Him because they were also working iniquity or sin. Jesus does not say to depart from Him because they did not have a belief on Him alone as their Savior (while they ignored their sin). The whole point of Matthew 7 is about doing what Jesus says. For in Matthew 7:26-27, Jesus says that whosoever does not do what he says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Yet, 1 Corinthians 16:22 says that if any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ let him be Anathema (accursed) Maranatha.

You also have to realize that Paul is arguing against the false Pharisee religion (that he used to be a part of), as well. In that religion, it was all about works and law and there was no grace and no Savior. (See the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee). However, Jesus condemned this false religion by saying to it's followers (i.e. the Pharisees) that they ignored the weightier matter of the Law like justice, love, faith, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42). After Christ's death, the Pharisees still followed the ceremonial laws and judicial laws within the Old Written Law (that are now no longer binding, like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, and the laws on animal sacrifices). So the Pharisees still desired men to be circumcised to be saved. However, Paul said, "what profit is there in circumcision?" (Romans 3:1). Paul said, "if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." But Paul was not against the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc.). For Paul says, "Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul answers that question with, "God forbid." (Romans 6:1). Paul says that the "righteousness of the Law" might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4). What is the "righteousness of the Law" that we fulfill? To love your neighbor (Which is the same as the Moral Law: Like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10). Paul says, "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. (Romans 6:22). Why do you think God says this to a particular believer? "His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23). Yet, why do you think the Lord condemns the unprofitable servant with the following words? "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30). Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). So when a person says that they are saved by God's grace alone and they do not mention anything about living holy and fruitful as a part of that, they are giving people a license to sin or a license for immorality (of which Jude 1:4 warns us against).

In fact, the very reason Christ gave Himself for us (i.e. died for us) is so as to make us holy, blameless (Ephesians 5:25-27), and to redeem us from all iniquity and so that we can be zealous of good works (TItus 2:14). That is the purpose or reason Christ died for us. To make us into a holy people while we are living here upon this Earth. For 1 Peter 4:2 says that we should not live the rest of our lives to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God. This is in context to ceasing from sin (1 Peter 4:1).

You cannot be saved by God's grace alone unless you believe you can sleep with prostitutes, murder, abuse children, steal, refuse to spread the gospel, and oppress the poor and yet you can still be saved somehow magically all because you have a belief on Jesus. That would be being saved by God's grace alone because it would not take into account holy living at all as a part of saying someone was saved or not. You want holiness and fruitfulness to be in a believer's life to say that this is a true believer who is really saved, but you are not wanting to admit that it is truly a part of the salvation process. For even in your belief, you recognize that a true saved believer will live holy and do fruitful things for God. But you don't say that a believer lives holy and does fruitful things for God so as to be saved. Does this mean a believer can sin and not repent of just one really bad sin (like lying or lusting after a woman) and still be saved as long as they generally live holy? Can believers justify a little bit of sin? One can surely rationalize this to themselves if they truly believe they are 100% saved by God's grace alone. A believer can think they can do drugs every once a while or indulge in inappropriate content and that would be okay with God. Nobody is perfect, right? You can sin a little, right? As long as they generally live holy, right? See, the problem with your belief is that it makes for an allowance for sin. Yet, Jesus never made any allowance for it. He said if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says that if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). John says if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer and no eternal life abides in you (1 John 3:15).



The light of Christ= Matthew 7:21-23---No matter what one thinks they do for Jesus, have love for Jesus, believe on Jesus---If they are a worker of iniquity( practiced or willfull sin) he will tell these at judgement--Get away from me, I must confess, I NEVER even knew you.---Many Jaws will be dropped.
Paul backs Jesus up at Hebrews 10:26--No sacrifice left for any who practice( willfull) sin.
Many are being lied to and being told--you are saved or born again, yet they are practicers of sin--from these teachers I say--RUN FROM THEM.
 
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The light of Christ= Matthew 7:21-23---No matter what one thinks they do for Jesus, have love for Jesus, believe on Jesus---If they are a worker of iniquity( practiced or willfull sin) he will tell these at judgement--Get away from me, I must confess, I NEVER even knew you.---Many Jaws will be dropped.
Paul backs Jesus up at Hebrews 10:26--No sacrifice left for any who practice( willfull) sin.
Many are being lied to and being told--you are saved or born again, yet they are practicers of sin--from these teachers I say--RUN FROM THEM.

I agree with your Scriptural references, my friend.

As for running from them: Well, I have been at this a long time. I have debated with Eternal Security proponents both online and in person for about 6 years now. Some Eternal Security proponents have been known to change their mind. It is rare but it does happen. Also, Scripture also does say we are to bear with them. Meaning, we should preach the truth of God's Word to them in love patiently. For I may plant seeds and another waters, but it is God that gives the increase. If a believer is not strong in the meat of the Word, then I would say to steer clear of them until they study to show themselves approved unto God.
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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Yes. Ephesians 2:8-9 is 100% true. We are "Initially Saved" and or "Ultimately Saved" by God's grace and not works. For we did not do any works to get saved initially but we called upon the Lord Jesus and believed in Him for salvation. We also can get clean (forgiven) if we stumble into sin again by confessing our sins to Jesus (1 John 1:9). However, that does not eliminate the other aspect or step in the salvation process (i.e. Sanctification). You have to read the whole counsel of the Word of God and not just isolate verses or passages that you would prefer to see. Jesus says, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). In Matthew 7:23, Jesus says to certain believers who did many wonderful works to depart from Him because they were also working iniquity or sin. Jesus does not say to depart from Him because they did not have a belief on Him alone as their Savior (while they ignored their sin). The whole point of Matthew 7 is about doing what Jesus says. For in Matthew 7:26-27, Jesus says that whosoever does not do what he says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Yet, 1 Corinthians 16:22 says that if any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ let him be Anathema (accursed) Maranatha.

You also have to realize that Paul is arguing against the false Pharisee religion (that he used to be a part of), as well. In that religion, it was all about works and law and there was no grace and no Savior. (See the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee). However, Jesus condemned this false religion by saying to it's followers (i.e. the Pharisees) that they ignored the weightier matter of the Law like justice, love, faith, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42). After Christ's death, the Pharisees still followed the ceremonial laws and judicial laws within the Old Written Law (that are now no longer binding, like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, and the laws on animal sacrifices). So the Pharisees still desired men to be circumcised to be saved. However, Paul said, "what profit is there in circumcision?" (Romans 3:1). Paul said, "if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." But Paul was not against the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc.). For Paul says, "Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul answers that question with, "God forbid." (Romans 6:1). Paul says that the "righteousness of the Law" might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4). What is the "righteousness of the Law" that we fulfill? To love your neighbor (Which is the same as the Moral Law: Like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10). Paul says, "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. (Romans 6:22). Why do you think God says this to a particular believer? "His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23). Yet, why do you think the Lord condemns the unprofitable servant with the following words? "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30). Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). So when a person says that they are saved by God's grace alone and they do not mention anything about living holy and fruitful as a part of that, they are giving people a license to sin or a license for immorality (of which Jude 1:4 warns us against).

In fact, the very reason Christ gave Himself for us (i.e. died for us) is so as to make us holy, blameless (Ephesians 5:25-27), and to redeem us from all iniquity and so that we can be zealous of good works (TItus 2:14). That is the purpose or reason Christ died for us. To make us into a holy people while we are living here upon this Earth. For 1 Peter 4:2 says that we should not live the rest of our lives to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God. This is in context to ceasing from sin (1 Peter 4:1).

You cannot be saved by God's grace alone unless you believe you can sleep with prostitutes, murder, abuse children, steal, refuse to spread the gospel, and oppress the poor and yet you can still be saved somehow magically all because you have a belief on Jesus. That would be being saved by God's grace alone because it would not take into account holy living at all as a part of saying someone was saved or not. You want holiness and fruitfulness to be in a believer's life to say that this is a true believer who is really saved, but you are not wanting to admit that it is truly a part of the salvation process. For even in your belief, you recognize that a true saved believer will live holy and do fruitful things for God. But you don't say that a believer lives holy and does fruitful things for God so as to be saved. Does this mean a believer can sin and not repent of just one really bad sin (like lying or lusting after a woman) and still be saved as long as they generally live holy? Can believers justify a little bit of sin? One can surely rationalize this to themselves if they truly believe they are 100% saved by God's grace alone. A believer can think they can do drugs every once a while or indulge in inappropriate content and that would be okay with God. Nobody is perfect, right? You can sin a little, right? As long as they generally live holy, right? See, the problem with your belief is that it makes for an allowance for sin. Yet, Jesus never made any allowance for it. He said if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says that if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). John says if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer and no eternal life abides in you (1 John 3:15).

Reading what you have written here in essence is just about everything that I myself could write as well, with one big exception that I see is the difference between what is said and what I would say, you start out in Eph 2:8-10 with the first two verses and completely agree that one does not earn their salvation and then start with my denying that a holy life should follow, which is not true nor have I ever stated that. V10 of Ephesians went on the say "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. From this point down it goes farther in the salvation part which is not mentioned in scripture. Nothing from the point of salvation by grace through faith is needed for salvation but because of salvation, good works are the by product of being saved. We become new creations in Christ and He begins to teach us the wisdom through His word and the Holy Spirit guides us in the way of righteousness. No where can anyone show where I or any of the others that I have read ever state that sinful living is a goal nor approved of, God forbid Paul said to the idea of shall we sin that grace may abound. But all the holy living in the world after salvation does not complete your salvation, it does show the growing process of having been sanctified and following the leadership of the Holy Spirit and not yielding to the flesh. The rest of the post is contrasting false professors of the flesh which is what is condemned by scripture. When God seals the repentant sinner saved by grace through faith alone, He is very much aware of everything the person will perform and better yet, know for sure that this heart is bent toward the will of God and those are the ones sealed unto the day of redemption, and along with Paul we that are solely trusting His word of eternal life say, I have confident of this very thing that He who began the good work in me will perform it to the end, to the praise of His glory. Salvation and its process is His gift to all who believe on Him and all a gift from Him, without whom we can do nothing pleasing to Him. This is the difference which I see in the separation of our understanding. The credit for holy living goes to the subject of this powerful verse, Phil2:13 for it is God working in you to will and to do of His good purpose. Recognizing this all credit goes to Him, and if we love Him we keep His commandments John 14:15 & 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.
 
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aiki

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This is talking about entrance into God's plan of salvation.

The Bible no where uses the phrase, "entrance into God's plan of salvation." Salvation is not a "plan," salvation is a Person: Jesus Christ. (1 Jn. 5:11-13)

For it talks about how we are also saved by the WASHING and REGENERATION of the Holy Ghost in Titus 3:5, too (Words that you conveniently left out). So Titus 3:5-7 is talking about Initial Salvation!

There is no such thing as "initial salvation." The phrase does not appear anywhere in Scripture. And as far as I'm concerned, the end of Titus 3:5 just further makes my case for me. It is the shed blood of Christ that cleanses me from sin and the Holy Spirit who gives to me spiritual life. I simply receive these things; I cannot work to earn them, or contribute to my own salvation.

But you have to isolate this verse on the words you prefer to see and focus a laser beam on them (Ignoring the rest of the Bible).

Now you're just indulging in Strawman argument. I focused on the particular part of the verse that I did because it was pertinent to the point I was making. Doing so in no way indicates that I ignore the rest of the Bible. In fact, in my first post to this thread (post #54) I quoted Titus 3:3-7!

In addition, if you were to skip back and read Titus 1:16, you would also have to realize that a person can deny God by a lack of works, too. In other words, your Soteriology only works if you ignore the rest of what Scripture says (i.e. the rest of Titus 3:5 and Titus 1:16).

People deny God in their minds and hearts before they deny Him in their works. And those who do reveal not only their degeneracy but their unregeneracy. Titus 1:16 speaks of spiritually unregenerate people, not those who are saved. This is very clear when you consider verse 16 in the light of verse 15:

Titus 1:15-16
15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.


I don't see, then, how this passage does anything to diminish what I pointed out from Titus 3:5. No one is saved by dint of their own effort; good works have nothing to do with becoming an adopted child of God. The passage above does not deny this or qualify it. What it does explain is the relationship between what one thinks and believes and one's behaviour. Those who are defiled and unbelieving act like it. Those who are genuinely born-again, also act like it.

It is another gospel to teach that Jesus did not die so as to make us holy, blameless, and zealous of good works (See Ephesians 5:25-27) (Titus 2:14).

And your point is? I don't hold to such a view of the Gospel. Do you?

For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world. Verse 9 (Ephesians 2:9) is talking about the entrance. We are not saved by works when we come to God. We are saved by God's grace. From that point on, verse 10 (Which you conveniently leave out again) says that we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works.

Ephesians 2:9 says nothing about an "entrance." It speaks only of the absence of our good works in God's salvation of us. Verse 10 (which I left out for reasons of pertinency, not convenience) speaks of the consequences of one's salvation, the fruit of it, not the means of retaining it. We are saved unto good works, not by good works.

Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Jesus says in Matthew 19:17, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.

Yes, and? Holiness and obedience to God's commands are the fruit of salvation. They are not, however, the means of it.

Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


So if salvation is inevitable for those who are saved, then how do you not see that as forced salvation? Inevitable suggests that it is the only outcome. When a person has one outcome or choice before them, then that would be something that is forced. So you believe in a contradiction.

No, there is no contradiction, only poor thinking on your part. If you should find yourself playing chess with the world's greatest chess master, who do you think will win? You are free to make whatever moves you like in the course of the game but right from the beginning, your loss of the game is certain. Have you been forced to lose? In a way, yes. But not in a way that suspends or contravenes your free will.

God works on a level far beyond any chess master, of course. He has known from before the universe existed how you would respond to His drawing, and convicting, and illumination of your mind and heart to His saving truth. He knew before He ever began to work to save you exactly how to do so to bring about your free choice to be saved. Against this sort of knowledge you stand no chance of resisting, not because you aren't free to resist - you are - but because every choice, every response, every thought and desire you might or will have concerning the Gospel God has foreseen and taken into account in His salvation of you. Does God force us, then, to be saved? Not in the sense in which, say, a police officer forces an arrest of a criminal. Our freedom to choose is not negated as it would be in such an instance. I don't, then, see any contradiction in my freely choosing to be saved and God's omniscient and overcoming power of persuasion that makes my salvation inevitable.

By the way, you ignored my question:

This is a non sequitur. Why could God not teach a person to deny ungodliness even if He forced their salvation? I don't see how the latter would prevent the former.

So you don't believe you are saved by cooperating with God?

I explained in my last post why I think the term "cooperating" is a poor one in describing the dynamic between us and God. As I said, God is not your co-pilot, He is your life. "Cooperating" doesn't communicate this fact well at all.

Clearly you do not believe in holy living because you said, "Christ does not render us entirely free of our fleshly impulses and the sinful habits of the past." However, you cannot live holy if you believe you are slave to sin. That is a contradiction.

And...some more Strawman arguing from you. In fact, I do most certainly believe in holy living, but I don't think anyone is ever in their condition entirely and perfectly holy. In our spiritual position in Christ, clothed in his perfect righteousness, we are wholly sanctified, but in our daily living, our condition, the truth of our fully sanctified position is worked out progressively. So it is that Paul writes,

1 Corinthians 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours...


and the writer of Hebrews writes,

Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.


This last verse is particularly interesting because it very clearly states our perfected position in Christ and also the process of sanctification that goes on in the life of every believer.

But by what you said at the end of this post, you said you still battle with sin and are a slave to it.

No, I did not. What I actually wrote was:

"Our new life in Christ does not render us entirely free of our fleshly impulses and the sinful habits of the past. Our second birth does give us freedom from bondage to these things, however, and the wherewithal to live "godly in Christ Jesus."

I specifically state here that no believer is under the power of sin as they once were as an unregenerate person. But we still possess bodies with strong physical urges and needs against which we must sometimes battle. We also have established patterns of behaviour and thought that must be overcome. Being saved doesn't instantly alleviate us of the force of these things in our lives but we do, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, possess all we require to live godly in Christ Jesus.

Sin or bad fruit is mixed with good fruit?

No analogy is perfect. You aren't actually a tree, are you? You don't have actual branches, and roots, and bark, do you? No, you don't. Be careful, then, not to stretch an analogy too far. I have seen many apple trees bear stunted or rotten apples. Doesn't mean they aren't apple trees.

Those who fell away due to persecution and the care of this life (and riches) are those who believed for a while. They received the gospel with joy, but they did not endure in their faith.

There are kinds of belief, as the apostle James makes very clear. (Ja. 2:19) The Parable of the Sower and the Seed shows that not every kind of belief, not every kind of positive reception of the seed of the Gospel, results in genuine salvation.

Sanctification is not an automatic thing that happens entirely for everyone who repents and believes in Jesus.

Oh, yes it is! See above.

We know that in 1 Timothy 5 that believing younger widows can cast off their first faith (1 Timothy 5:12).

This is an obvious misrepresentation of the verse. The NASB offers clarity:

1 Timothy 5:11-12
11 But refuse to put younger widows on the list, for when they feel sensual desires in disregard of Christ, they want to get married,
12 thus incurring condemnation, because they have set aside their previous pledge.


Jesus says, "Abide in me." You have to abide in Christ. We do this by picking up our cross, denying ourselves, and by following Him.

Abiding in Christ is the ground out of which picking up the cross and self-denial arises. Abiding is not these things, however. The difference is one of being as opposed to doing. As I said, an apple tree brings forth apples because it is an apple tree, not in order to be an apple tree.

You cannot cast off your first faith unless you have faith.

Many people have "faith" in God, but their faith is not a saving faith, but merely intellectual, a faith of convenience and religious vanity. From this sort of faith "believers" fall away all the time.

Sin can harden a believer's heart and make them depart from the living God.

Yes, and? If they are truly saved, when they do become hardened and depart, God, being their loving Heavenly Father, will act to discipline them and draw them back into fellowship with Himself. (He. 4:4-12)

So Sanctification is not some kind of guaranteed thing for every believer who receives God's grace. In fact, by what you said, how exactly are you in the Sanctification process? Do you find you are living more holy? But how is that possible if you are still a slave to sin? It makes no sense. Agan, you believe in yet another contradiction.

It seems you are so caught up in the tangle of your beliefs in this matter of salvation that you cannot actually comprehend any other perspective on it. I find that I am in a process of sanctification just as the Bible indicates I will be and that I am today a godlier man than I was ten or twenty years ago. How about you?

I have never said I was a slave to sin. Instead, in my posts in this thread I have indicated quite the opposite about genuine believers. What contradiction you think exists in my beliefs is more perceived than real, I think.

That is because Ephesians 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5-8 are talking about Initial Salvation and they are not talking about Sanctification (Which follows after one is saved by God's grace).

The phrase "initial salvation" does not exist in Scripture. Sanctification, as I have explained, is the consequence of salvation, not the means of it.

Hence, why you are confused and you trying to equate Initial Salvation with Continued Salvation or the next step or stage in the Salvation process (i.e. Sanctification).

None of these phrases exist in Scripture. There is no "initial salvation" or "continued salvation," only salvation, permanent and full.

Jesus says, "Abide in me." You have to abide in Christ. We do this by picking up our cross, denying ourselves, and by following Him.

No, we don't. We pick up our cross and deny ourselves as a result of abiding in Christ. Goodness! Who has been teaching you about the Christian life?!

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

The good fruit is from the Lord. So we can only bring forth good fruit if we CHOOSE to abide in Christ by obeying His commands.

5 "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:5-6).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

John 14:23 explains that love is the ground out of which obedience is to flow. When we love God, the natural by-product of that love is obedience. In such a circumstance, obedience is not a choice any more than the pumping of the blood through your body is a choice. How sad it is that you don't understand this.

Again, this is a contradiction. You cannot say that holiness and works of a believer is a necessary mark of showing a truly saved person if it is not truly a means of salvation in any way. That is false logic.

As I have said now a couple of times at least, an apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree. Bearing such fruit is the inevitable result of being an apple tree. But the apple tree doesn't bear apples in order to be an apple tree. Likewise, with the Christian believer. Good works are the fruit of salvation, not the means of it. There is absolutely no contradiction in this.

If holiness and works are not necessary for salvation, then you can live in sin and still be saved. Then again, you said below in this post that you can struggle with sin and still be saved. How exactly is that holy living again by struggling with sin? Jesus says we cannot serve two masters. Scripture says a double minded man is double minded in all his ways.

Yes, one can sin and still be saved. Willfully living in sin as a daily practice, however, is not consistent with the claim to be saved. A believer grows into a holy life as they grow in their faith and love of Christ. But this process of growth and change does not equate to double-mindedness and slavish bondage to sin. It is a false dichotomy to say that one is either living in perfect holy surrender to God or one is living in bondage to sin. This dichotomy totally ignores the continuum of change that characterizes every believer's walk with God.

Notice how you said that I would do those things? This is a false accusation. Nowhere am I suggesting that I would sleep with prostitutes, oppress the poor, and believe in Jesus with the thinking I was saved.

Glad to hear it! You're maybe just a bit too quick to take offense here, though.

I am suggesting that this is the line of thinking for the person who truly believes they are saved by God's grace alone and really mean it.

Well, I truly believe we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, totally apart from our works, but I don't hold to the thinking you want to ascribe to me here. Not at all.

Anyways, a person can harden their heart by the deceitfulness of sin. It is not impossible for a person to resist God after they had them in their life. Saul is a great example of this. He once had the Spirit of God, but the Lord departed from him. Why? Because of his sins (of course).

Saul did not possess the Spirit of God in anything like the way a born-again believer post Calvary does. Using him as an example of salvation lost is pointless. I will grant you, though, that sin does greatly hinder our fellowship with God (though, not our relationship to Him).

Context! Jesus said to those who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (sin) (Matthew 7:23).

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness .'


How could people who had done all the things described in this passage find themselves rejected by God? Is it not His will that people be free of demonic possession? Is it not His will that miracles should be performed in his name and people healed? Does God not want His will to be made known through prophesying? Well, of course God wants all of these things. But none of these things are at the heart of God's will for us. And what is that, exactly?

Matthew 22:35-37
35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37 And He said to him, " 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart , and with all your soul , and with all your mind .'


It is entirely possible for people to do God's will and yet not be doing it. All miracle working, and prophesying, and deliverance from the demonic, if not born out of love for God, are spiritually worthless, though they are obedient to God's will. In fact, all our righteousness is spiritually useless if it doesn't arise out of a heart of love for God. (1 Cor. 13:1-3) But there are millions of people thinking they are Christians who go to church, tithe, who pray and read the Bible, who live morally circumspect lives, but who have no love, really, for God at all. And such people will find themselves one day hearing Christ say to them, "Depart from me, I never knew you." This is because they didn't understand that the ground of righteousness isn't an action, it isn't doing things, but is, rather, first and foremost, a condition of the heart.

The narrow way is not OSAS.

You're quite right. The narrow way isn't OSAS but Christ.

No. Jesus says we are to abide in Him. It is a command. It does not automatically happen. A vine can only grow if it is watered and it has the proper soil. Remember, the condition of your heart from the parable of the sower that I told you about?

Well, of course it doesn't automatically happen. We aren't actually branches and Christ isn't actually a tree trunk. We are volitional beings who can choose the degree of fellowship we wish to have with our Saviour. The vine-branch analogy explains to us how good, spiritual fruit is manifested in our lives. But we cannot even desire to abide in Christ if God's Spirit has not first placed such a desire within us. As Paul explained to the Philippian Christians, God gives us both the desire and ability to do His will. (Phil. 2:13) We don't cooperate with God in this, except to be receivers of His enabling work. And even our ability to receive, God has made possible. At every turn it is God giving us everything we need to be who He has called us to be. God, then, isn't merely working alongside us in a cooperative, team effort. He is to the believer their very life, the Source of everything they are and need as born-again disciples of Christ. This is far different, a far more intimate and dependent circumstance than mere cooperation suggests.

Right, so if Christ lived in Paul, then that means he could not have sinned.

This is not in the least biblical. Paul writes exactly the opposite about himself.

In Romans 7:14-24 Paul is recounting his experience of struggling with sin as a Pharisee who was under the Old Law (when he was Saul).

This is neither stated nor implied in the chapter. Paul speaks of the nature and purpose of the law in the first half or so of the chapter but then goes on to describe the tension that there is within him between the good he knows to do as a follower of Jesus and the impulse of his flesh toward sin. He explains that a knowledge of the law is insufficient to bring about obedience to it. What is required is what he outlines in the first fifteen or so verses of the next chapter.

Paul says that they that are of the Spirit do mind the things of the Spirit and they that are of the flesh do mind the things of the flesh. Obviously Paul was not minding the things of the Spirit but he was minding the things of the flesh in Romans 7:14-24.

Most of what Paul writes in chapter 8 is not self-referential or in the first person. It is mostly "you" or "those who" or "if anyone" and such like, not "me," "my," or "mine." So, I don't see that you have any good grounds to assert Paul is describing himself particularly in chapter 8.

Please take note that 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh (sin) and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. This is not true if one is a slave to sin.

Think carefully about what you're saying here. Why are believers to cleanse themselves from all filthiness of the flesh, etc., if they are already perfectly holy as you want to propose every genuine believer is? Why must they perfect holiness if they are already perfectly holy as a matter of course as children of God?

As for your quoting of Galatians 5:17: Again, you quote the verse out of context.

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:17).

Did you see that? Scripture is telling you to walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. But you believe you will always fulfill the lusts of the flesh, which runs contrary to this Scripture!

Again, a Strawman of my position. I don't believe that a Christian will always fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Where in the world do you get that from?! I have, in fact, said quite the opposite! See above.
 
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kjw47

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I agree with your Scriptural references, my friend.

As for running from them: Well, I have been at this a long time. I have debated with Eternal Security proponents both online and in person for about 6 years now. Some Eternal Security proponents have been known to change their mind. It is rare but it does happen. Also, Scripture also does say we are to bear with them. Meaning, we should preach the truth of God's Word to them in love patiently. For I may plant seeds and another waters, but it is God that gives the increase. If a believer is not strong in the meat of the Word, then I would say to steer clear of them until they study to show themselves approved unto God.



I always point out to all--Learn and apply ALL that Jesus taught, Obeying those teachings is what proves ones love for Jesus. No Church I ever attended actually taught what Jesus taught. Those teachers were taught a certain religions dogmas in the schools of men and that's what they get paid to teach. I share 6 teachings from Jesus to all. No trinity follower will believe those teachings, even though those teachings are in their translations as well.
Gods kingdom is rushing upon us.
 
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I always point out to all--Learn and apply ALL that Jesus taught, Obeying those teachings is what proves ones love for Jesus.

I agree. John 14:15.

You said:
No Church I ever attended actually taught what Jesus taught.

Well, the church itself is an unbiblical concept. There are no church buildings with a highly paid staff in Scripture. Believers met in homes and they collected money so as to be equally distributed goods among all the saints who had needs.

You said:
Those teachers were taught a certain religions dogmas in the schools of men and that's what they get paid to teach.

Yes, I am strongly against the idea of a Christian going to Bible school. For one, it is not free, and two they are brain washed there.

You said:
I share 6 teachings from Jesus to all.

What are they are?

You said:
No trinity follower will believe those teachings, even though those teachings are in their translations as well.

I believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is 100% God who is eternal and uncreated. Do you believe that, too?

You said:
Gods kingdom is rushing upon us.

I agree.
 
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