Does 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 teach that we are not saved by faith?

Devin P

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Then you don't believe that all scripture is given by inspiration of God and profitable for instruction in righteousness as scripture say in Timothy. And of course you have scripture to back that up or just your opinion and how do you determine what is of God and what is not? 2 Pet 1:19-21 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
We have to look at what scripture they had when the verse you quoted was written. The New Testament hadn't been compiled and made yet. The only scripture that they had when that verse was written, was the Old Testament. Does this take away from the New Testament at all? No, but it should shine a light of importance, that the OT reveals what we are to do, how we are to be, and who our faith is to be placed in, to be saved. As Jesus says, the early scriptures speak of Him.

Paul was like Jesus, because He did all of the things Jesus did - e.g. the Torah, the instruction of God, or better known for the word it's often misinterpreted as "the law".
 
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samir

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I recently made a topic about how we are saved by faith and this was brought up in another thread and I thought that it would be interesting to discuss in a separate thread. 1 Cor 6:9-10 reads:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Now does this teach that we are not saved by our faith? Or that there are conditions to our faith? We must not be sexually immoral, commit idolatry, adultry (Which is a difficult one Jesus said that to even look at a woman in lust is adultery), Homosexual, a thief, a drunk, or swindlers? Not to disagree with Paul but, I thought that the law was covered by love in the NC? Or is these verses teaching that a true faith would not exude these kinds of things? Just like a true faith would show works and a love for God and others? I also notice in the next verse it says

"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Does that mean that people who were washed and baptized by the Holy Spirit that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 doesn't even apply to them?

Discuss.

It's important to look at and understand verb tenses when studying scripture. Christians have been saved by grace which they accepted through faith (Eph 2:8-9) - that's past tense. 1Cor 6:9-10 refers to who will inherit the kingdom of God - that's in the future tense. What that means is that no works are required to receive God's grace and become a Christian but once a person learns of God and receives grace he now has an obligation to live in accordance with God's law. Those who choose to sin against God turn away from Him and will not inherit the kingdom of God unless they repent and die in a state of grace.
 
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It's important to look at and understand verb tenses when studying scripture. Christians have been saved by grace which they accepted through faith (Eph 2:8-9) - that's past tense. 1Cor 6:9-10 refers to who will inherit the kingdom of God - that's in the future tense. What that means is that no works are required to receive God's grace and become a Christian but once a person learns of God and receives grace he now has an obligation to live in accordance with God's law. Those who choose to sin against God turn away from Him and will not inherit the kingdom of God unless they repent and die in a state of grace.

So does this mean a believer can sleep with prostitutes, hate their brother, steal, oppress the poor and still be saved as long as they have a belief on Jesus?

If you say no believer will act that way, then you are suggesting GOD does something to a believer whereby He forces them to meet the requirements of salvation?

For most (not all) Eternal Security proponents do not believe that a believer can live in tons of sin and also make the claim that they are truly saved. In other words, Eternal Security proponents secretly believe that holiness or works are necessary for salvation but they do not simply want to admit it. Either they believe God makes a person that way, thereby meeting the requirements, or God chooses only those beleivers He knows will want to do good. Either way, it is convenient that believers just happen to do good things as a part of God's saving grace. For they are saying that no believer is saved if they do lots of horrible sins (Which suggests that what you do has a part in your salvation).

For if a believer was saved by God's grace and not works 100% then they should not be able to out sin the grace of God. But that would be immoral and it would be turning God's grace into a license for immoraltiy. In fact, telling others that they are not saved by anything they do and it is only in believing in Jesus to be saved will lead them to think they can sin and still be saved unless you explain to them that they cannot live however they like. That is the double message that is a contradiction in the Eternal Security belief.

Try re-reading Hebrews 3 about not having an evil heart of unbelief and departing from the living God and being deceived by the deceitfulness of sin.
 
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I recently made a topic about how we are saved by faith and this was brought up in another thread and I thought that it would be interesting to discuss in a separate thread. 1 Cor 6:9-10 reads:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Now does this teach that we are not saved by our faith? Or that there are conditions to our faith? We must not be sexually immoral, commit idolatry, adultry (Which is a difficult one Jesus said that to even look at a woman in lust is adultery), Homosexual, a thief, a drunk, or swindlers? Not to disagree with Paul but, I thought that the law was covered by love in the NC? Or is these verses teaching that a true faith would not exude these kinds of things? Just like a true faith would show works and a love for God and others? I also notice in the next verse it says

"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Does that mean that people who were washed and baptized by the Holy Spirit that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 doesn't even apply to them?

Discuss.

Scripture has to breath as a whole. You cannot take one passage or verse and isolate and ignore Bible texts that you don't like. Works and holiness are a part of the salvation process. If they were not then you can live in as much sin as you want and have a belief on Jesus and be saved. However, if that were true, then all the warnings Jesus and His followers gave us about sin (leading to spiritual death) would be useless non-sense. I mean, why warn us about sin if we are not effected by it in any way (salvation wise)?

I remember an Eternal Security proponent I talked with on another Christian forum was so desperate once to change the meaning of Paul's phrase, "inherit the Kingdom of God", he actually believed it was in reference to recruiting believers (i.e. inheriting sheep or brethren by evangelization). Utter ridiculousness. This is how far men must go so as to distort the truth and turn God's grace into a license for immorality that Jude 1:4 warns us about.

So if holiness and works plays no part in your salvation, then you can live like the devil and still be saved. You should not be able to out sin the grace of God. But we both know it doesn't work like that. A believer does have to live holy and be fruitful for God's kingdom. Even Eternal Security proponents will say that a believer will have to live holy and be fruitful or they are not saved. This means they are saying that works and holiness is a part of salvation (even though they do not want to admit that fact to themselves). They are preaching a double message (Which is a part of Eternal Security).
 
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The Eternal Security proponent's circular logic:

Eternal Security Proponent will say: "We are saved by God's grace alone by believing on Jesus and not by works or anything you do."

Biblical Conditionalist will say: "So you can murder, sleep with prostitutes, steal, hate others, and oppress the poor and still be saved as long as you have a belief on Jesus?"

Eternal Security Proponent will say: "No, no. Never. No true believer will ever live like that."

Biblical Conditionalist will say: "What difference does it matter how a believer lives if they are saved by God's grace alone without works?" "Are you saying a believer is saved by works and holiness?"

Eternal Security Proponent will say: "A true believer will not live like that." "No believer is saved by works."

Biblical Conditionalist will say: "Your avoiding the question." "You are suggesting that a true believer will live holy and be fruitful for God's Kingdom and if they do not live that way, they are not a true believer." "This suggests that they are not just saved by God's grace." "Again, if a believer is saved by God's grace without works of any kind then they can sin as much as they want and still be saved." "That is the only alternative conclusion if we are truly saved by God's grace without works to it's fullest extent." "Saved by God's grace without works cannot be true if you also believe a saint has to live holy and be fruitful if their salvation is to be true." "It doesn't matter if God changes them to be that way or if God chooses only those believers He knows will be faithful to Him." "You cannot say that a believer is saved by God's grace without works and then contradict yourself and say that a true believer will live holy (showing that they are saved)."
 
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Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about "Initial Salvation" or "Ultimate Salvation." This means that when we first come to Christ we are not saved by anything we do (John 1:12-13). This means that if we sin, we do not get clean by doing a good work, but we get clean (forgiven) by confessing our sins to Jesus Christ and believing that He is our Savior (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9). Paul is not saying that we can sin and still be saved (And nor is Paul denying works or holiness as a part of the salvation process - which is a showing of our faith). Paul asks the question, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Paul's answer to that question is "God forbid." (Romans 6:1-2). In Ephesians 2: Paul is not talking about how the Sanctification process (i.e. holy living) and how that is a part of the Christian life. Paul says elsewhere that we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Pauls says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Paul says repeatedly that if any one does particular sins they will not inherit the Kingdom of God or they will face the wrath of God (Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:4-5, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Colossians 3:5-7). Paul talks about how we are to fulfill the "righteousness of the Law" (i.e. the moral law or loving your neighbor) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4 and then compare with Romans 13:8-10). The Law that Christ crucified was the Written Law and it's ordinances that was exclusive to Israel (i.e. the ceremonial laws, and civil laws). The Law Paul condemned was the same, as well. It's why Paul says, "What profit is there in circumcision?" (Romans 3:1). It's why Paul says, "If you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2). Paul was not condemning the idea that we should obey Christ's commands as a part of life. Jesus Himself said, "If you will enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17). In fact, Jesus's commands are based on God's Eternal Morals Laws for Man (Which is based on love). These Eternal Moral laws existed for man since after the "Fall of Adam." They exist today and there are still dire consequences to one's soul if anyone disobeyes them and does not repent. Many today truly do not want to do what is right. Many today are out to defend how they can serve both God and themselves.

However, ...

8 "...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,
indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law" (Romans 2:8-12).
 
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samir

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So does this mean a believer can sleep with prostitutes, hate their brother, steal, oppress the poor and still be saved as long as they have a belief on Jesus?

No. Justification in the future tense requires obedience as the quote I posted shows.

If you say no believer will act that way, then you are suggesting GOD does something to a believer whereby He forces them to meet the requirements of salvation?

No. Believers still have free will. Paul had to warn the Corinthians and Galatians more than once because many of them chose to sin and it put their salvation in jeopardy.

For most (not all) Eternal Security proponents do not believe that a believer can live in tons of sin and also make the claim that they are truly saved. In other words, Eternal Security proponents secretly believe that holiness or works are necessary for salvation but they do not simply want to admit it. Either they believe God makes a person that way, thereby meeting the requirements, or God chooses only those beleivers He knows will want to do good. Either way, it is convenient that believers just happen to do good things as a part of God's saving grace. For they are saying that no believer is saved if they do lots of horrible sins (Which suggests that what you do has a part in your salvation).

For if a believer was saved by God's grace and not works 100% then they should not be able to out sin the grace of God. But that would be immoral and it would be turning God's grace into a license for immoraltiy. In fact, telling others that they are not saved by anything they do and it is only in believing in Jesus to be saved will lead them to think they can sin and still be saved unless you explain to them that they cannot live however they like. That is the double message that is a contradiction in the Eternal Security belief.

Try re-reading Hebrews 3 about not having an evil heart of unbelief and departing from the living God and being deceived by the deceitfulness of sin.

I've met plenty of eternal security proponents who told me they were no better and no less sinful than unbelievers. They said they're just sinners like everyone else except they're saved by grace. In my experience, they sin more often than unbelievers but even most unbelievers don't "live in tons of sin" so that's just an ambiguous phrase that doesn't really mean much. Statistics confirms what I witnessed. For example, Baptists and non-denominationals (two groups that are likely to believe eternal security) have the highest divorce rate in America - even higher than atheists and agnostics. The unbelievers I knew who were persuaded to believe an eternal security gospel all sinned more often after believing it. I had to quit being friends with an unbeliever after he became a "Christian" because he sinned too much after being convinced his salvation was guaranteed.
 
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As I heard in a sermon recently (on TV), "We are not sinners who struggle to find God, we are children of the living God who struggle with sin".

I think this sums up my view point pretty well. we are Christians who are tempted by and fall into sin on occasion. The difference with being a sinner is that sin is their master, they strive after that which is sinful. we strive after God but our flesh is sinful and wants what is contrary to the spirit so will try to lead us astray, so we struggle against it. Galatians 5:17.
 
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JoeP222w

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"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Because God granted them the gift of repentance.

Now does this teach that we are not saved by our faith? Or that there are conditions to our faith? We must not be sexually immoral, commit idolatry, adultry (Which is a difficult one Jesus said that to even look at a woman in lust is adultery), Homosexual, a thief, a drunk, or swindlers? Not to disagree with Paul but, I thought that the law was covered by love in the NC? Or is these verses teaching that a true faith would not exude these kinds of things? Just like a true faith would show works and a love for God and others? I also notice in the next verse it says

1 John 3:8-9 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. (9) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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We have to look at what scripture they had when the verse you quoted was written. The New Testament hadn't been compiled and made yet. The only scripture that they had when that verse was written, was the Old Testament. Does this take away from the New Testament at all? No, but it should shine a light of importance, that the OT reveals what we are to do, how we are to be, and who our faith is to be placed in, to be saved. As Jesus says, the early scriptures speak of Him.

Paul was like Jesus, because He did all of the things Jesus did - e.g. the Torah, the instruction of God, or better known for the word it's often misinterpreted as "the law".
That of course may be the conclusion of what some believe, but I posted what I and many others believe to be true. Most all of the NT other than maybe some of John's were probably written by the time of Peter's, seeing as how Paul was killed around 67-68 by Nero as has been written, and Peter is believed by many to have been killed a few years later, so that is why I do believe the scriptures I posted. I do not believe any scripture is not from the Lord, now if others don't , I have no control over that. But Jesus did say in Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. And this from Ps 119:89 Forever, O Lord, Your word is settled in heaven. If one cannot believe the whole of scriptures I see no reason to believe that their views contradict what is written. I would ask does any of the scripture contradict themselves and if so show the proof of it. But I side with Joshua, as for me and my house we shall serve the Lord, and that is by His word.
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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As I heard in a sermon recently (on TV), "We are not sinners who struggle to find God, we are children of the living God who struggle with sin".

I think this sums up my view point pretty well. we are Christians who are tempted by and fall into sin on occasion. The difference with being a sinner is that sin is their master, they strive after that which is sinful. we strive after God but our flesh is sinful and wants what is contrary to the spirit so will try to lead us astray, so we struggle against it. Galatians 5:17.
That is so good and many walk hand in hand with your statements. I would add that Jesus came to save sinners and make them saints, that is why the letters are written to the set aside ones, who the Lord saved from being sinners, separated from God and made them saints on their way to His heavenly dwelling place. We stand on His righteousness with the assurances of His faithful words, Rom 8:1-14
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
 
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Halbhh

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I recently made a topic about how we are saved by faith and this was brought up in another thread and I thought that it would be interesting to discuss in a separate thread. 1 Cor 6:9-10 reads:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Now does this teach that we are not saved by our faith? Or that there are conditions to our faith? We must not be sexually immoral, commit idolatry, adultry (Which is a difficult one Jesus said that to even look at a woman in lust is adultery), Homosexual, a thief, a drunk, or swindlers? Not to disagree with Paul but, I thought that the law was covered by love in the NC? Or is these verses teaching that a true faith would not exude these kinds of things? Just like a true faith would show works and a love for God and others? I also notice in the next verse it says

"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Does that mean that people who were washed and baptized by the Holy Spirit that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 doesn't even apply to them?

Discuss.

Paul does write at times about how rejecting God people will multiply their sins (such as in Romans chapter 1). But these exhortations are to believers here.

We learn that even after accepting Christ, we can still sin -- 1 John chapter 1. We learn that as saved believers, we must confess our sins, in an ongoing way.... If we don't confess/turn from our sins (which happen, which we sometimes fall into), we would be holding onto the sin instead of following Christ. By confessing, we are forgiven. This is an ongoing need and requirement.

The cure for many important misunderstandings of Paul's writing is...

...effortfully...to read all the way through many of his epistles....

Nothing less works. If we think we understand just from a passage or a chapter and didn't yet read fully through all the chapters, and sometimes more than one epistle...

...it turns out then we've only got part of it, and not the whole, yet.

Here --> Paul does not contradict James.

Yeah, James, the blunt and forceful writer of "faith without works is dead".

Paul agrees to that fully and totally.

.
 
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aiki

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1 Cor 6:9-10 reads:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Now does this teach that we are not saved by our faith? Or that there are conditions to our faith?

Scripture itself answers your questions:

Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Quite clearly, works have nothing to do with being saved. An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree, not in order to be an apple tree.

Are there conditions on our faith? I don't know what you mean. What Scripture indicates is that real, saving faith is always revealed in corresponding behaviour. My trust in Christ will show up in how I live. The presence of the Holy Spirit within me by whom I am spiritually regenerated will be manifested in my life by the development of the fruit of the Spirit and conduct increasingly holy and glorifying to God.
 
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lastofall

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[for me anyway] there has always been a cost to count, but for a while now there has been much false teaching of a no cost cheap faith which requires nothing of a person; which of course is attractive to many; it is a matter of the blind leading the blind heading straight toward the ditch, except they repent.
By the way it is saved by grace through faith: neither grace is on its own, and neither is faith on its own, but they are in unity of purpose.
 
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Halbhh

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Scripture itself answers your questions:

Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Quite clearly, works have nothing to do with being saved. An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree, not in order to be an apple tree.

Are there conditions on our faith? I don't know what you mean. What Scripture indicates is that real, saving faith is always revealed in corresponding behaviour. My trust in Christ will show up in how I live. The presence of the Holy Spirit within me by whom I am spiritually regenerated will be manifested in my life by the development of the fruit of the Spirit and conduct increasingly holy and glorifying to God.


In Ephesians 2, verse 10 is one and with verses 8 and 9. I know it's common to quote verses 8 and 9 without 10, I'm just saying you and I should not do that, but should include the verse that belongs to them.

We should include verse 10 even though it makes people ask questions, because otherwise verse 8 and 9 are today sometimes misunderstood into an altered version of the grace doctrine, what grace does for us. We are saved by grace alone, in spite of our filthy rags, but that's not the end of the work on us. Verse 10 is becoming more crucially necessary lately, with the proliferation of new doctrines in the media that would lead us away from Christ's teaching, trying to suggest we've nothing to learn from all that Christ teaches us (and also the remainder of the epistles).
 
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No. Justification in the future tense requires obedience as the quote I posted shows.

So salvation also requires obedience (works) after one is saved by God's grace that is a gift and not of works? I agree.
This would suggest that works is a necessary thing as a part of our salvation after God's saving grace.
For nobody can sit on their hands and do nothing in this life and be saved.
A believer not only has to passively not sin (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not look upon others with lust with one's eyes), but they have to pro-actively not sin, as well.
For we cannot refuse to help and or love the poor in this life (i.e. to love our neighbor) (See Matthew 25:31-46). Nor can we hate our brother, either (1 John 3:15 cf. with 1 John 3:17).
We cannot refuse to not care about men's souls and not give them the gospel, either (Luke 9:62). We cannot refuse to love the Lord our God, either (1 Corinthians 16:22).
Jesus says if we love Him, we are to keep His commandments (See John 14:15).

You said:
No. Believers still have free will. Paul had to warn the Corinthians and Galatians more than once because many of them chose to sin and it put their salvation in jeopardy.

It sounds like we agree here.

The only thing I have to ask next is:

(a) Do you believe God is a Trinity? (i.e. God is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost whereby they are each distinctively exist as separate persons and yet they are one God)?
(b) Do you believe in following the commands in the New Testament primarily (Which are mostly moral laws based on love) and that we do not obey the ceremonial commands or judicial commands in the Old Written Law like the Saturday Sabbath, the other Sabbaths, the Passover, circumcision, the dietary laws, the animal sacrifices, the farming laws, etc.?
(c) Do you believe Scripture and Scripture alone is your only authority spiritually for your life (Not including the Apocrypha)?

For I believe God is a Trinity, and that we are to obey the New Testament Commands (and not any ceremonial laws from the Old Written Law), and that Scripture alone is our sole authority.

You said:
I've met plenty of eternal security proponents who told me they were no better and no less sinful than unbelievers. They said they're just sinners like everyone else except they're saved by grace. In my experience, they sin more often than unbelievers but even most unbelievers don't "live in tons of sin" so that's just an ambiguous phrase that doesn't really mean much. Statistics confirms what I witnessed. For example, Baptists and non-denominationals (two groups that are likely to believe eternal security) have the highest divorce rate in America - even higher than atheists and agnostics. The unbelievers I knew who were persuaded to believe an eternal security gospel all sinned more often after believing it. I had to quit being friends with an unbeliever after he became a "Christian" because he sinned too much after being convinced his salvation was guaranteed.

My experience with Christians today who claim to believe in Eternal Security also suggests that they have a low regard for sin and their lifestyle and or thinking does not line up with living a holy life like Jesus and His followers require from us (According to the New Testament).

Our only disagreement appears to be that you think we are not saved by works. While on the one hand, to an extent this is true because we did not have to do any works to be initially saved and we did not get clean of our sins by doing works but by confessing our sins to Jesus Christ and by believing that He is our Savior; However, on the other hand, we do know that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. So we have to obey God and be fruitful for His Kingdom. For the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness.

Side Note:

Please take note that I believe that all righteousness a believer does is God (Christ) working in them to do good things. So a believer cannot take the credit for their own righteousness alone. A believer merely cooperates with the work that Lord desires to do through them.
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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[for me anyway] there has always been a cost to count, but for a while now there has been much false teaching of a no cost cheap faith which requires nothing of a person; which of course is attractive to many; it is a matter of the blind leading the blind heading straight toward the ditch, except they repent.
By the way it is saved by grace through faith: neither grace is on its own, and neither is faith on its own, but they are in unity of purpose.
:amen:You said it, and of course scripture teaches it exactly that way. Eph 2: 8-9 are quoted often and should be in context and would always be beneficial to add v10: Eph 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James is simply saying what His 1/2 brother said, Why call Me, Lord, Lord and do not what I say. James said, Jam 2:14-17 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can(that,I added) faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Without Christ in you, John 15:5b without Me you can do nothing. No good works before salvation because those are done in the flesh, faith produced by grace through the word of God gives the Holy Spirit power to do the will of God produced by the Holy Spirit as Phil 2:13 says, For it is God working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure.
 
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discipler7

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Does that mean that people who were washed and baptized by the Holy Spirit that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 doesn't even apply to them?
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In 1CORINTHIANS, Paul was writing to the Corinthians who were mostly new Gentile Christians. Gentiles were not bound by Moses Law, unlike the Jews and early Jewish Christians. The city of Corinth was located in Greece and was under Roman rule and Roman Law. Under Roman Law, it was not a crime or sin to be " fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners"(likely referring to petty thieves and extortioners). But under Moses Law or God's Law, they were.
... Similarly for the excommunicated incest-sinner at 1COR.5:1-13, ie incest was not a crime under Roman Law but was a sin/evil-deed under Moses Law or God's Law.

So, Paul was warning the Gentile Corinth Christians to "Go and sin no more"(JOHN.5:14 & 8:11) and keep Moses Law accordingly(see below) after they had come to the truth and been saved from hell by the Lord Jesus,(HEBREWS.10:26-31) even though such sins/evil-deeds were not prohibited by Roman Law.
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At ACTS.15:24-29, God has exempted new Gentile Christians from any law of Moses which is a burden, eg circumcision and kosher foods. They are not exempted from any law which is not a burden, esp morality laws, eg the Ten Commandments(EXODUS.20), DEUT.18:9-14, LEV.10:9 & 18:22, etc.
... In comparison, new Jewish Christians are required by God to continue to keep Moses Law, as many as possible, because it is not a burden to them.

Those "Christians" who wantonly or ignorantly commit sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking risk losing their salvation while suffering horribly for their sins, eg by cursing/blaspheming God/Jesus and die, like the wife of Job. Be warned by DEUT.28:15, JOB, 1COR.5:5 & 11:30, 1JOHN.5:16-19, HEBREWS.10:26-31, 1COR.6:9-11, REV.22:12-15, ie sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking have consequences - some may lead to a horrible early death(= risk losing salvation/faith) and some may not, eg convicted murderers are usually executed and traffic offenders only have to pay a fine.

Being saved from hell after death rests solely on faith/trust/belief in Jesus as the Christ/Messiah/Savior.(JOHN.3:16, GALATIANS.2:16, eg LUKE.23:43)
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GAL.5: =
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,(NU-Text omits murders.) drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

REV.22: =
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
 
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Scripture itself answers your questions:

Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

And verse 8 says,

"This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." (Titus 3:8).

Why must they be careful to maintain good works? They are good and profitable unto men.

How is this good and profitable unto men (like ourselves)?

21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."
(James 1:21-22).

And here is some context to Titus 3, as well.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

So you can deny God by a lack of works.

Titus 2:11-12 tells us that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world. Granted, I believe that we are saved by the regeneration and washing of the Holy Ghost, but I also believe we are saved by cooperating with God, too. God does not force us to be saved. Nor does God desire only some to be saved, too. God wants all men to repent (Even though He knows that will not happen). In other words, the grace of God could not teach us to deny ungodliness if salvation was some kind of forced regeneration.

Also, it is true that we are not saved by works of righteousness WE have done because it is the Lord Jesus Christ (GOD) who is working in you to do righteous things.

You said:
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is talking about how we are "Initially Saved" or "Ultimately Saved."
This is not talking about the Sanctification process that follows after one is saved by God's grace. Verse 10 says we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. Remember the parable of the unprofitable servant? What happened with the unprofitable servant? Well, things did not go well for him.

You said:
Quite clearly, works have nothing to do with being saved. An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree, not in order to be an apple tree.

This is true in regards to how we are "Initially Saved" or "Ultimately Saved." A believer does not do any works when they come to the faith to be saved. They repent and believe Jesus and they are saved in that moment. If a believer sins again, they can confess their sins to Jesus and be forgiven. So yes. We are Initially and Ultimately Saved by God's grace and not of works. But that does not mean works or holiness does not play a part in our salvation. Even if you believe these works are forced upon an individual by God (like your idea of God making somebody into a productive apple tree). Works and holiness would still be a requirement for salation (that God fulfills on your behalf by force regenerating a person). A person would still need to actively show these works and live holy as per meeting the requirement of showing that they are saved. For they cannot be unfruitful for God in this life and live in sin also still be saved. If we are truly not saved by works to the fullest extent, then no sin can separate you from God and you can sleep with prostitutes, steal, murder, hate, oppress the poor and still be saved. Obviously you do not think a believer can do these things and be saved. So this means works (good works) are necessary for salvation. It is irrelevant if you believe either God or you fulfills these requirements for salvation. But seeing that we do not see most believers in Christ walking perfectly as Christ (God) did, it is a safe assumption that God is not forcing them to be a certain way. This means we have to cooperate with God. God is not going to force us to be good. We have to actively cooperate with the good God desires to do through us. Having a new born again heart (that is spiritually changed) makes it possible to obey God, as well. But one also needs to cooperate with the Lord working in them, too. For if you can do evil or sin, that means God is not forcing you to be a certain way. You have to actively work at being holy and righteous; And Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

You said:
Are there conditions on our faith? I don't know what you mean. What Scripture indicates is that real, saving faith is always revealed in corresponding behaviour. My trust in Christ will show up in how I live. The presence of the Holy Spirit within me by whom I am spiritually regenerated will be manifested in my life by the development of the fruit of the Spirit and conduct increasingly holy and glorifying to God.

The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (Hebrews 5:9).

Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

He that does not love his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15).

If you do not forgive, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive you (Matthew 6:15).

If a person looks upon a woman in lust, their whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

Why would God's Word tell us these things if they are all commands that we would automatically obey? It makes no sense in the Eternal Security universe.
 
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