Doer of the law

[danstribe]

You don't believe scripture. If you did you would be preaching the gospel of grace not the bondage of law.

Still no scripture...He said to go and preach the gospel OF THE KINGDOM. Do you know what that gospel is? Show me the scripture where Christ said to preach the gospel of grace. Grace is a vital and irreplaceable component of the Kingdom of God, but you don't understand what grace is. Grace is the freely given forgiveness of sin NOT the freedom TO sin.

 

[bloodygrace]

Still no scripture...He said to go and preach the gospel OF THE KINGDOM. Do you know what that gospel is? Show me the scripture where Christ said to preach the gospel of grace. Grace is a vital and irreplaceable component of the Kingdom of God, but you don't understand what grace is. Grace is the freely given forgiveness of sin NOT the freedom TO sin.

So why aren't you preaching grace then? Believers are under grace not law.

 

[danstribe]

All the martyrs for the last 2000 years were Sunday keepers and they were martyred for confessing Christ and later for leaving the pope and the mass. The Sabbath was not even the issue then or now.

All of them? Which martyrs? Of course you would not consider those who kept the sabbath as martyrs, but they were. Do some research reading the history won't hurt Sabbath keepers throughout history

 

[bloodygrace]

All of them? Which martyrs? Of course you would not consider those who kept the sabbath as martyrs, but they were. Do some research reading the history won't hurt Sabbath keepers throughout history

I don't believe in SDA fairy tales. The Sabbath was a non-issue for thousands of years until the SDA resurrected the Judaizing heresy of the 1st century.

 

[danstribe]

So why aren't you preaching grace then? Believers are under grace not law.

You still don't understand, Christ said to preach the gospel of THE KINGDOM so why aren't YOU preaching that gospel? Do you know that the Kingdom will come and God's laws will be on earth as they are in heaven? God rules with His law.

 

[danstribe]

I don't believe in SDA fairy tales. The Sabbath was a non-issue for thousands of years until the SDA resurrected the Judaizing heresy of the 1st century.

You have not studied the history at all, but you will eventually.

 

[bloodygrace]

You still don't understand, Christ said to preach the gospel of THE KINGDOM so why aren't YOU preaching that gospel? Do you know that the Kingdom will come and God's laws will be on earth as they are in heaven? God rules with His law.

You have no 'good news' just more law bondage.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Hello Teacher.

Your seeing the revelation of the Christ incorrectly.

The act of believing in Jesus Christ is what qualifies a person for salvation. The foundation of Christianity is believing in the death and resurrection of the Christ (1 Corinthians 15).

Your seeing a perfect life as the requirement for salvation, this is not the case at all. If we needed to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, then no one would pass this test. Rather, the righteousness of Christ is granted to us as a free gift. We receive the Holy Spirit and this means we have Christ within, so we are indeed perfect in God's sight already.

Matthew 11
28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will
find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

I agree we are saved by faith....
faith is a gift from God....ephesians 2:8
Faith is only given to us by the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ.....
Faith is imputed....Romans 4:24

The real question is what is Jesus requirement to give faith.....
It is listed in His requirements of Love for Him and His father above all other....
Anyone who does not have this love does not have faith either....
It is a false faith in men's laws and requirements not Jesus....

if I have faith to move mountains and do not have love I am nothing
1Corinthians 13:2

Therefore love is the real requirement for salvation.....and not faith alone......

1 John 4:7-8
Beloved let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[bloodygrace]

You have not studied the history at all, but you will eventually.

I haven't studied your slant on history. The Sabbath was a non-issue for thousands of years. Martyrs died for confessing Christ not what day they went to church on. It's common knowledge. Are there any Sabbath keepers in Foxes book of Martyrs - show me all the Sabbath keepers who were burnt at the stake.

 

[bugkiller]

CHrist restored the law to its original meaning
Matthew 5
I did not come to abolissh the law but to fulfill it
he showed the true meanign og
Murder-hate
Adultery- lust
Sqbbath-rest .....Lord of the Sabbath

he restored the Greatest Commandment
The shema......

I would love to see your evidence Jesus came to restore the meaning of the law.

The evidence is strongly against that with -

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. Jn 15

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Jn 13:34

Neither of the above verses have anything to do with restoring the law.

I believe we as gentiles need to do some serious soul- searching before we pick and choose the 10 commandments and claim grace grace...!!!

Why? when the 10 Cs are the law which Paul says we are delivered from (Rom 7:6) and indicates we are to throw out the law in Gal 4.

If the Unbelieving Jews fell into pride and rejected their messiah because of self-righteousness.....
And God cut off that branch...
Could not we as Gentiles fall into the same self-righteous pride by discounting the Jews and saying that they have nothing to teach us about the Law.....
As quoted in Romans 11:17-21

Why would they need to teach gentiles especially gentile Christians about the law?

Do not be uplifted in pride because it is not you who suppor t the root but the root supports you....
For if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare you either......

Jesus is the Root. Why are you supporting the law?

bugkiller

 

[danstribe]

You have no 'good news' just more law bondage.

It's what Christ preached, and Peter and Paul and James and ALL of the first generation Christians until a spirit of lawlessness crept in and took over and still rules the churches today.

I agree we are saved by faith....
faith is a gift from God....ephesians 2:8
Faith is only given to us by the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ.....
Faith is imputed....Romans 4:24

The real question is what is Jesus requirement to give faith.....
It is listed in His requirements of Love for Him and His father above all other....
Anyone who does not have this love does not have faith either....
It is a false faith in men's laws and requirements not Jesus....

if I have faith to move mountains and do not have love I am nothing
1Corinthians 13:2

Therefore love is the real requirement for salvation.....and not faith alone......

1 John 4:7-8
Beloved let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

He also said "If you love Me keep My commandments".

 

[bugkiller]

Bob i have been to sabbath churches and seen the abuses and legalism....

The purpose of the law is to show us our sin
Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not haveknown about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

The LAW is like a police officer....remove the LAW and you have caos........
Observe Aaron when he took over for Moses...caos and rebellion.....lawlessness

Moses cannot take you into the Promised land only Joshus(type of Christ) can do that
But Moses can keep you from going back into bondage of sin(Egypt)

If we take away the Law we do not see our sins...and therfore cannot repent and therefore cannot be saved....
The LAW cannot save us just warn us and convict us of our sins....
Many Christians today believe once you are saved you no longer have to repent and confess your sins...
Also many others believe it is not even necessary to repent in order to be saved.....
This is a result of gentiles distorting grace and removing the law..........

Christ did Change the law and the Covenants...this is the new covenant in my blood.........
But He restored the original intent of the Law of Moses...
and brought forth the principles written in the Torah without abolishing it.........

Yes Christ brought us into the original intent of the LAW from the beginning......
Showing mercy and Love over judgement.....

No we are not under the letter of the law of Moses but there is still a judgement for sin as christians if we continue to break the law......as we see Jesus judgement on the money changers...
also Pauls judgement on the church in Corinth

The law was our tutor to bring us to faith in Christ.....
Galatians 3:24-25 [Full Chapter]
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

How can one violate something they were never subject to? And how can one violate a law that has no jurisdiction because it is a has been according to LK 16:16?

bugkller

 

[klutedavid]

I agree we are saved by faith....
faith is a gift from God....ephesians 2:8
Faith is only given to us by the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ.....
Faith is imputed....Romans 4:24

The real question is what is Jesus requirement to give faith.....
It is listed in His requirements of Love for Him and His father above all other....
Anyone who does not have this love does not have faith either....
It is a false faith in men's laws and requirements not Jesus....

if I have faith to move mountains and do not have love I am nothing
1Corinthians 13:2

Therefore love is the real requirement for salvation.....and not faith alone......

1 John 4:7-8
Beloved let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Hello TT.

You asked?

The real question is what is Jesus requirement to give faith.....

No requirement, Jesus grants the Holy Spirit to whoever calls on His name.

Now the fruit of the Holy Spirit and which love is included in that fruit, is shown below.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

All good things come from above, all good things are free.

The onus is upon you to simply accept the free gift of salvation, resist the urge to earn it.

 

[danstribe]

I haven't studied your slant on history. The Sabbath was a non-issue for thousands of years. Martyrs died for confessing Christ not what day they went to church on. It's common knowledge. Are there any Sabbath keepers in Foxes book of Martyrs - show me all the Sabbath keepers who were burnt at the stake.

John Fox was a Protestant born in 1516. He was like you in thinking that the sabbath was wrong. There are other historical accounts where people were forbidden to worship or rest on the seventh day and even murdered for it specifically. As far as sabbath keepers in the book of martyrs yes, Paul, Peter, James and ALL of the apostles as their custom was, to preach to Jews and gentiles on the sabbath.

 

[Traveling teacher]

faith alone.....is a false doctrine because it leaves out God's requirement of love......

I say unto you her sins, which are many are forgiven, for she loved muc,
but to whom little is forgiven loves little...
Luke 7:47

Love is the fulfillment of the Law....Romans 13:10

 

[danstribe]

Hello TT.

You asked?

No requirement, Jesus grants the Holy Spirit to whoever calls on His name.

Now the fruit of the Holy Spirit and which love is included in that fruit, is shown below.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

All good things come from above, all good things are free.

The onus is upon you to simply accept the free gift of salvation, resist the urge to earn it.

What did Christ mean when He said "Not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but only he who does the will of My Father in Heaven"? You said that He grants the Holy Spirit to whoever calls on His name He says not everyone who calls on Him will enter

 

[Bob S]

All of them? Which martyrs? Of course you would not consider those who kept the sabbath as martyrs, but they were. Do some research reading the history won't hurt Sabbath keepers throughout history

Hi danstribe, I have not been following this thread, so I can only presume you are a Sabbath observer and if so an Adventist. I was SDA for 40 years. As much as I love my SDA friends I could not stay in a church that so blatantly disregard what Jesus has done for all mankind and is sitting not in some room counting sins of SDAs, but at the right hand of the Father where He has been since Calvary. Those Sabbath observers who throughout history that have been martyrs have done it out of ignorance.

If you study the giving of the 10 commandments at Sinai you will find that it along with the book of the law were the words of the covenant. The covenant was not given for Israel's salvation. It was given so that if they agreed to do all the covenant's requirements they would inherit Canaan, the land of milk and honey. Those that agreed with the requirements never saw their promised land. They all died during the 40 years in the wilderness. It was their offspring and Aaron who crossed over into the promised land. Again, they didn't keep all those laws for the promise of the Kingdom of Heaven. Salvation is and always was a personal relationship with God. That is how Abraham was saved.

My point in writing this is that your Sabbath observance and any other ritual laws gleaned from the old covenant is futile. God is not offering you Canaan. What He is offering all of us is Grace. Salvation is a free gift and trying to do rituals given to a now defunct nation is just as futile as becoming a Sabbath martyr throughout the ages.

 

[bugkiller]

Now in regards to the commandments, here is the key: There are commandments that a Jew is required to keep if he wants to walk in obedience that you, as a Gentile, are not. I've used kashrut as an example before. Wearing tefillin or tzitzit are also arguable, as are at least some of the feasts. This is why I think that most Gentile Christians are baffled by the whole issue of "the law." God gave the Jews a number of commandments meant to shape our culture in a specific way that simply don't click with you because they aren't part of your culture and the Spirit isn't drawing you to them. (There are Gentiles who are drawn to them, as prophesied in Zechariah 8:23, and they should obey the Spirit.)

There no longer is a difference between Jew and Gentile because of the NC. Both Jews and Gentiles are treated exactly alike when it comes to salvation. The law and their traditions are now nothing more than their heritage.

So my point is not to try to get you to adopt a Jewish way of life in the Torah. My point is to get you away from your knee-jerk, "No, that's the law and the law is bad!" theology, because that theology is anti-Semitic and has been used for literally millennia to oppress Jewish believers in the Jewish Messiah.

Based on your post I would have to respectably say no.

Okay, back to the blow-by-blow debate:

The word "but" is an interpolation in your translation. It does not appear in the Hebrew at all. I suggest you refer to an interlinear Bible or Young's Literal Translation before depending on a conjunction to make a point--Hebrew has fewer conjunctions than English, so interpolations are common.

That is OK by me. I will throw out the word "but." The literal word for word translations is -

of Israel the house with I will make that shall be the covenant...

The word "that" (אֲשֶׁ֣ר) is pronounced "’ă·šer." and specifies covenant. Jeremiah is talking about a future covenant opposed to a current covenant. It is clear Jeremiah is not talking about a repaired covenant from the two previous verses. So who needs the word "but?"

Actually, we agree here. However, do you agree that while on the one hand the NC is unilateral, on the other hand one who is under it still has obligations to the Savior? Are you or are you not still commanded to "Love your neighbor as yourself" under the NC? And if there are indeed commandments that you are supposed to keep under the NC, why are you surprised that a Jew is still obligated to keep the commandments that God gave us in the Torah--not merely as external show, but out of love and in the power of the Spirit?

Shalom

No we do not agree as proved in your post. You still require performance of the body of flesh to some written requirement making it a by-lateral covenant. Just read what yuo wrote.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Rom 4

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jn 3

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Jn 5

I just do not find anything requiring works when it comes to salvation.

I do find a Christian has fruits - Gal 5:22-23. A tree does not work to bear fruit. I refer you to Rom 11.

Now that wraps up what you said and i talked in depth about your passage. Now it is your turn to talk about my passages as you said you would.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

This is actually one of my pet-peeve mistranslations, because the translators of every Christian Bible know perfectly well how it should be translated but persist in giving a false reading in order to justify an anti-Sabbatarian position.

The word translated "Sabbath rest" is Sabbatismos. While the noun form is unique in the Bible, the verb form Sabbatizu appears in six different verses in the Septuagint, where it always means, "keep (or kept) the Sabbath": Exodus 16:20, Leviticus 23:32, Leviticus 26:34-35, 2 Chronicles 36:21.

I did not find your word Sabbatizu in any of the passages above. Please kindly identify it for me along with your source. I need to know what word is sabbatizu is represented by.

Therefore, translated correctly this verse does not mean, "Oh look, we have a spiritual 'Sabbath rest' in Christ now!" It literally says, "There therefore remains a Sabbath to keep ('Sabbath-keeping') for the people of God." And when is that Sabbath supposed to be kept? According to Hebrews 4:4, on the seventh day.

I have accepted the invitation of Jesus He gave in Mat 11:28-30. Thus Jesus is my sabbath and sabbath rest for my soul. That is what is important.

The point of the author is not to undermine Sabbath-keeping. Just the opposite. He's warning Jewish believers (his target audience, hence the name of the book) not to rebel against keeping the Sabbath. After all, the Sabbath, being a day that we can enter God's rest without distraction, was given as a blessing to be cherished, not a onerous religious burden that we should want to escape (Mark 2:27).

The 7th day sabbath is not the rest of God one needs to enter into. Israel could not enter into that rest even though they had and kept the physical sabbath.

Mk 2:27 does not say the sabbath is given to all mankind. If it did Jesus is teaching something contrary to the law. The Book of the Law has several passages indicating the 7th day sabbath was for Israel alone.

Sorry, generally I take a live-and-let-live approach when it comes to my Gentile brethren and the Torah. However, as a matter of Biblical doctrine, I think that the Church has erred in both changing its Sabbath to Sunday and in changing the day of the Pascha. While it certainly isn't a matter of salvation, it has created a lasting split in the Assembly between Jew and Gentile (which was the exact intention, see Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, V.24 and Life of Constantine III.18-20).

And so it has. Personally I think the issue is the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah.

Shalom

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yes he did. And kept it, and even made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the express purpose of making sacrifices (Acts 24:17). Which is why I think you're ignoring half the data when you offer your interpretation of Paul.

You do not understand what Paul said in Acts 24:17 in context of the whole of Paul's life as recorded in Scripture.

bugkiller