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Doctrine of Election

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by DiscipleOfIAm, Mar 7, 2005.

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  1. Lockheed

    Lockheed Well-Known Member

    515
    +28
    Calvinist
    All belief systems are somehow affected by human traditions and ideas. No one can truly say that they have a 'traditionless' belief. Surely Calvin properly summarized parts of Scripture, but no one is saying that Calvin was somehow inspired as the Apostles were inspired.



    Dear friend, the Bible states the contrary: "no one seeks for God". It is Christ who "seeks and saves the lost". Lost rebellious sheep don't go looking for the shepherd. Praise God that the Shepherd seeks and saves us, as left to our own devices we never would.



    It is God who "makes my feet like hinds' feet, And sets me upon my high places", it is God who orders the steps of the righteous. It is all of God and zero me.



    And some believe they help God in saving themselves. God knows that on our own, we would all (and have) chosen death over His righteousness. This is why we need a Savior, one who seeks and saves His lost sheep, given to Him by the Father.

    God says "I will accomplish all My good pleasure", please, please tell me how He doesn't do what He promises.



    This is a strawman. All men are guilty before God and deserving of hell. It by grace that God saves anyone. God is not obligated to save anyone, but graciously saves whom He wills. That is most certainly a God deserving of worship, who saves rebellious sinners out of their sin not on the basis of something in them, or something they do, but because of His great love.

    Please tell me, why you believe in God, but others do not?
     
  2. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    All I know is Christ, and him crucified.

    You don't know anything about sheep.

    All I can tell you is that I desperately wanted Christ. When I found out that I could have a relationship with God through Christ, I went running to HIm as fast as I could. Your experience may be different, you may have been a wicked evil person and God stepped in and intervened. That's not the way it happened for me. If it was true that God seeks out those he wants to save and they all get saved through his sole intervention, why have missions? Won't they all get saved whether or not we do anything? Isn't listening to the words of the missionary a "work" in itself? ;)

    No, your words are a strawman. They are not a response to my statement, they are just trying to deflect the fact that you don't have an answer.

    Because 20 years ago I was in a situation in which no one could help me. I turned to God and said, "God, if you are really real, I need you to provide for me right now, to help me, to show me that you exist and love me." And God answered that prayer. I didn't get saved until four years later, after I found out that there is a way for me to be righteous enough to be with God. But I believe in God for the same reason I believe in my parents. He took care of me, he showed me his love. I could have chosen to do evil to meet my needs, but I chose to look to God to be my source, and whenever I have the slightest doubts about Him, I remember that great gift of Him providing for me even when I was a sinner who didn't believe in Christ at all.
     
  3. Lockheed

    Lockheed Well-Known Member

    515
    +28
    Calvinist
    So you deny being a "Baptist"?

    What does "Christ crucified" mean when Christ's death only made salvation possible, but didn't actually save anyone from their sins?

    Surely I've not done something to deserve such treatment? Did my quoting Scripture anger you?

    Were you somehow less wicked or evil than others and so God decided to save you? Did God save you because you "desperately wanted Christ"? What made you "desperately want Christ"... did God use the preaching of the Word to open your heart and mind to the fact that you needed Him?

    Are you saying that God sometimes acts against a person's will?

    Because God uses means. Just as God uses the word to bring people to faith, God uses the preaching of the Word. We are called "ambassadors of Christ" because we have been sent of God to do His will. God uses men to bring others to faith in Christ through the preaching of the Word, thus His disciples are commanded to preach the word.

    People will be saved however God wants them to be saved. God uses the preaching of the Word to supernaturally open the hearts of men so that they can hear, understand, and respond to the Gospel.
    Acts 16:14
    A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
    It doesn't matter what I think, though. It's what the Bible teaches that is important here. God is not a 'respecter of persons' and doesn't save us on the basis of deeds we do, or something in us. He makes us born again according to His will, not the will of man. (John 1:13)

    I really don't think I deserve your derision in this manner.

    God provided for you when you "didn't believe in Christ at all"? So you're saying God was gracious to you while you were still an enemy of Christ?
     
  4. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    yes, I am not a baptist. I am not denominational at all, but I do happen to attend an anabaptist church.

    What?

    But those people would get saved anyway, right? I mean, if hearing and responding to the gospel is unnecessary to salvation, if it is completely of God and not at all of humans, why did He even give us the gospel at all? Why doesn't He just save who He wants supernaturally and discard all the need for evangelizing?

    Yes He did. Yes He was.

    What? How is me using the same words you posted somehow loving on your part but dirisive on my part?
     
  5. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    What treatment? All I said was that you don't know anything about sheep, and your statement shows you don't know anything about sheep. Stating the obvious isn't mistreatment. Quoting scripture never angers me. I wish you would research what you post to make sure it is in context and the absolute word on the subject, which you didn't in this case, but I love when people quote scripture.
     
  6. oworm

    oworm Veteran

    +171
    Presbyterian
    Married
    UK-Conservative
    You have obviously never read Calvin to any kind of consistent degree. Thats obvious by your statement:
    I would challenge you to find in any of his writings the thought that The elect are a superior race! I find it an abomination that you would liken calvanism to Hitleralism!
     
  7. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    roman 3:23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

    1 cor 10:32 jews, gentiles ,and the church of God

    the elect are chosen by God ......2 tim 1:9

    how does God chose...1 cor 1:26-29
    1peter 2:9-10
     
  8. unimportantbuthisnameis

    unimportantbuthisnameis Philippians 2:8-10

    +34
    Baptist
    Single
    The problem that line of thinking is that IF the elect have been given a special gift from God (such as salvatio, and/or faith) that but them (the elect) in a different catergory than the rest of humanity (special by default).

    Even if Calvinist don't teach it directly the overall nature of the theologocal teachings imply that "I'm elect and that makes me more loved (by God) than you" (I know it's a direct quote used for emphasis). The way I see is that by having the Calvinistic beliefs you CANNOT be heartbroken for the salvation of non-believers BECAUSE, "if it was God's will they would be saved" (but it is His will that they be saved).
     
  9. Lockheed

    Lockheed Well-Known Member

    515
    +28
    Calvinist
    Anyone shown favor by God is so shown without their meriting it at all. It is clear, from Scripture, that some people receive a super-abundance of grace as opposed to others, but it is on the basis of God's decision and His choice.

    "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

    I'm not sure where we're called to be 'heartbroken' over God's justly judging whom He will. We should rather be heartbroken over our own sins and be peacemakers between men and God by preaching the good news.

    I guess the fact that some receive grace while others receive justice is certainly troubling and should cause the believer to fearfully respect their Father and it should cause those who believe to throw themselves on the mercy of God all the more... but "heartbroken"? Are we heartbroken when murderers receive due penalty for their errors?

    Sure there's a sense of foreboding of the coming wrath of God against all those who rebel, and thus we are ambassadors of God to them, but when the truth is rejected we should, as Paul did, move on. When Christ sent out the 70 to preach to Israel He told them to "shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them"...
     
  10. JustinWindsor

    JustinWindsor Member

    386
    +18
    Baptist
    Married
    ...was a systematic study of the use of the word 'faith' in Scripture. It became evident to me that the character and nature of 'faith' is...
    it is a gift from the Triune God, apportioned to each of His children according to God's own will.

    When I read the passages (not just the verses) I am humbled by all that God has done for us.

    I won't bore you with the scripture references because it is so incredibly easy to do a search now with all the wonderful reference tools available on the internet.

    Regarding 'free will', have to agree with Lockheed. Scripture says that we are slave to sin. This is clearly due to the sinful nature of man resulting from the fall. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate to me that mankind can even seek Christ unless the Holy Spirit has quickened them... made them alive in Christ.

    For me at least, Arminius' theology of free will was not Biblical. His 'Declaration of Sentiments' was self contradictory, and he did not treat Scripture with the respect and reverence it deserves with his interpretation.

    Here's a place where you can read his work if you care to...

    semperreformanda.com/arminius1.htm

    I'm all for opposing view points...equal time..as they say.

    May God Bless
     
  11. unimportantbuthisnameis

    unimportantbuthisnameis Philippians 2:8-10

    +34
    Baptist
    Single


    Let's the definition of faith:

    Websters says:

    Main Entry: 1faith [​IMG]
    Pronunciation: 'fAth
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural faiths [​IMG] /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/
    Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at [size=-1]BIDE[/size]
    1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : [size=-1]LOYALTY[/size] b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
    2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
    3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

    perhaps you would prefer a infallible def.:
    Hebrews 11:1

    1Now faith is the (A)assurance of things (B)hoped for, the conviction of (C)things not seen. (NASB)

    Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (NIV)

    1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (KJV)

    From the biblical viewpoint atheists who believe in the big bang theory have faith as it is something that is not perceived by the 5 senses. You'll say "that's not 'saving' faith" in my reading the Bible only talks about faith in Christ. If everyone has faith in something then how can you say that only some can be saved?
     
  12. Lockheed

    Lockheed Well-Known Member

    515
    +28
    Calvinist
    Did you ever read the book of James? What 'faith' did the demons have?
     
  13. MbiaJc

    MbiaJc Veteran

    +58
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican



    Not so! Your statments are simply not so! For instance take Peter and for that mater all the Apostles. They sought Jesus but were not "quickened" by the Holy Spirit. They were drawn by the Spirit but wansn't "quickened" till the day of Penecost.

    The Spies Moses sent into the promise land is a picture how the Holy Spirit works. Of all that were sint in only two came back and said they could take the promise land. Picture the land as the spirit the two are the only ones "quickened", however the others all searched it out even partook of the fruit, but never was "quickened".
    This also describes the ones Paul is talking about in Hebrew 6:4-6. They tasted of the heavenly gift, were pertakers of the Holy Spirit yet were not "quickened", for they rejected the heavenly gift and returned to their former state.

    We see form all these man can seek Jesus Christ being drawn by the Holy Spirit yet rejecting the call and not being "quickened" because of unbelief.
     
  14. ksen

    ksen Wiki on Garth!

    +408
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Where do you see that the Apostles sought Christ? He sought them out. Everything else flowed from that.

    Where in the Bible is the land ever connected with the Spirit? It is possible to stretch these spiritualizations of Scripture too far.

    • No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44(KJV)
    No one comes without the Fathers drawing, and those the Father draws will be raised up by Christ.
     
  15. unimportantbuthisnameis

    unimportantbuthisnameis Philippians 2:8-10

    +34
    Baptist
    Single
     
  16. JM

    JM Particular Baptist Supporter

    +2,856
    Canada
    Protestant
    Married
    CA-Others
    From the moment I gave my life to Christ, I was sure of election. Like a pig in mud, I was happy in sin and would never have chosen Jesus Christ if it wasn't for His saving Grace calling me out. As someone pointed out in the Reformed Forum, maybe the TULIP needs to be updated to ELECT: Exhaustive Depravity, Lord-centered Election, Effectual Atonement, Conquering Grace and Triumphant Saints.

    I wasn't taught to believe in the election, I read the Bible and it drips of God's purpose and plan, I've even tried to deny the truths of the Gospel when I first found out I was a calvinist.

    Never again.
     
  17. BBAS 64

    BBAS 64 Contributor Supporter

    +1,173
    Christian
    Married
    Nice Brother :amen:
     
  18. Lockheed

    Lockheed Well-Known Member

    515
    +28
    Calvinist
    Does Christ's own words not count? It is apparent that people were seeking a messiah, yes, but not the type of Messiah that Christ was. Likewise, people all over the world seek for a god, but none seek for the Living God of Scripture apart from His calling and choosing them first.
     
  19. unimportantbuthisnameis

    unimportantbuthisnameis Philippians 2:8-10

    +34
    Baptist
    Single
    I was asking for a specific verse to support you previous claim (which you failed to provide).
     
  20. A Brother In Christ

    A Brother In Christ Senior Veteran

    +50
    Christian
    Married
    no response?
     
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