Doctrine of Election

[MbiaJc]

unimportantbuthisnameis

Quote:

Originally Posted by: MbiaJc

Where do you see that the Apostles sought Christ? He sought them out. Everything else flowed from that.


My mistake: I used the wrong phrase there, however that does not change the fact they were not "quickened" till the day of Pinecost.

The Apostles and the spies make it plain the Holy Spirit deals with man before they are "quickened" made alive by the Spiritl.

Where did you get the notion that I denied the Holy Spirit in the convicting of sin?

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I give up where did I? I went back through the post, I must have thought (wrongly) you were one of the ones saying man can't come to God till he is "quickened" by the Spirit. sorry

 

[BT]

So you would be willing to change your theological position on the strength of a verse or passage of scripture which supports that "elect sinners are walking around"?

Yeah. See the thing is that this whole issue isn't a matter of pride for me. If calvinism were true then as a servant of Christ I would be forced to be a calvinist. I use the same argument with Catholicism; if it were true then I would have to be a Catholic (again).

The simple argument is that I desire to follow Christ and walk in obedience to the Word. Now even if the Word teaches something that I don't necessarily like... too bad for me. God is God and I am a man, He trumps me everytime.

Some folks act like those of us who aren't calvinists are dumb, in fact one poster somewhere in this thread intimated that if you aren't a calvinist "you don't know theology". You won't find such arrogant ad hominem statements from me. I want to do what God says and I believe what the Bible teaches. So yes, if any can prove to me calvinism from the scriptures ALONE (devoid of the multitudinous fallacies that come with it) then I will, no, I MUST be a calvinst.

However after searching, questioning, reading, talking with calvinists, for the past couple of years; I've come to the understanding that it's simply not there.

As I've said before, if you're a calvinist more power to ya. I don't personally make it a point of fellowship. I do make it a point of separation from a local church standpoint, but not a point of separation of fellowship.

 

[oworm]

Let's please try to keep this discussion civil. We all know the way that this topic tends to trend downhill quickly.

NO DEBATING BY NON-BAPTIST-ANABAPTIST POSTERS IS PERMITTED. Please see the forum specific rules for the guidelines on posting in here. We value your friendship but will not tolerate debating.


MOD HAT OFF

Maybe we should take this out of this fellowship forum chaps? It seems that there are non Baptists(Myself included) who are flouting rules?!

 

[oworm]

Yeah. See the thing is that this whole issue isn't a matter of pride for me. If calvinism were true then as a servant of Christ I would be forced to be a calvinist. I use the same argument with Catholicism; if it were true then I would have to be a Catholic (again).

The simple argument is that I desire to follow Christ and walk in obedience to the Word. Now even if the Word teaches something that I don't necessarily like... too bad for me. God is God and I am a man, He trumps me everytime.

Some folks act like those of us who aren't calvinists are dumb, in fact one poster somewhere in this thread intimated that if you aren't a calvinist "you don't know theology". You won't find such arrogant ad hominem statements from me. I want to do what God says and I believe what the Bible teaches. So yes, if any can prove to me calvinism from the scriptures ALONE (devoid of the multitudinous fallacies that come with it) then I will, no, I MUST be a calvinst.

However after searching, questioning, reading, talking with calvinists, for the past couple of years; I've come to the understanding that it's simply not there.

As I've said before, if you're a calvinist more power to ya. I don't personally make it a point of fellowship. I do make it a point of separation from a local church standpoint, but not a point of separation of fellowship.

Good thoughts and i would like to enter into discussion with you but i fear this maybe isnt the place as my hands are tied re forum specific rules!

 

[JM]

I see election in many ways, individual, national and vocational. Most people will allow for national and vocational but not individual...but what is national election but the election of a group of individuals? What is vocational election but God giving to one man what he won't give another? God does not give to all men equally, God with holds the Gospel from some nations and some people.

We still don't have a reason for Abraham's seed being blessed, why wasn't it another tribe's seed? It was God's good pleause to test Abraham and bless his seed, that's the only reason that fits with what the Bible tells us.

 

[JustinWindsor]

I believe that Lockheed has given the appropriate scripture references and correct interpretation in this thread. I cannot add to what he has stated. This is a debate which has gone on for centuries and will not stop on this thread. Augustine and Pelagius had the same debate, so did Edwards, Whitfield, John Gill, and Spurgeon versus some of their contemporaries. I choose to side with Gill and R. C. Sproul with the view that the New Covenant in Christ's blood is a covenant of grace.

Hebrews, Colossians, Romans, and more all teach clearly that the Covenant with Israel was one of works, one that man could not keep, one that stands today only to show us our sin.

It appears to me that the Arminian and "Calvinist" debaters disagree on our doctrine of the fall, and our doctrine of the Sovereignty of God. That is why we disagree in our doctrine of salvation. I believe that the gospel is 'good news' because of its complete absence of prerequisite of works or merit. Man cannot deserve salvation, man is unable to pay the sin debt by his own merit.

Many appropriate Scripture references toward this doctrine have been given throughout this thread. I'll point to a few;

Deuteronomy Chpt 32
Isaiah Chapters 14 and 46.
Ezekiel Chapter 36
John Chapter 6 and 15
Acts Chp. 2,4
Romans Ch. 3,5,8,9
Eph Ch. 1,2
1 Pet 2
Rev Ch. 17, 20

Man cannot come to Christ on his own because of the fall. Total Depravity.

When God says He knew me before he formed me in the womb...when God says He knew me before the foundation of the world, I believe He knew me personally. It was not due to anything I would do, it was not due to any merit of my own. Unconditional Election.

Those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundations of the world will be cast into the lake of fire. Limited Atonement.

Our Sovereign and all-powerful God is unwilling that any of His children should perish and will ensure that His plans are carried out perfectly. Irrisistable Grace & Perseverance of the saints.

The Arminian view, that God elects based on Him 'foreknowing who would choose Him' can only be proven with the doctrine of prevenient grace (which I disagree with) and differs from my understanding of the meaning of foreknew.

I can't help but thinking that the Arminian view makes the saved man somehow deserving or meriting salvation by his own choice. This, at least for me, doesn't allow for an all-powerful Sovereign God who is perfectly working his plan in the entire creation.

It is kind of like the chicken and the egg conundrum. What came first? The believer's choice to believe, then salvation. Or the gift of faith which brings salvation, the ability to choose Christ, and spiritual gifts.

The Arminian view, as I understand it, would have prevenient grace given to all of humanity, and God saw beforehand who would chose Christ and who would reject Him.

The Calvinist view would say that the Holy Spirit made you alive in Christ, and it was not until then that you were able to see your sin, and to choose Christ.

Arminians say that God choosing a remnant to be saved and kept only by what He does is not fair and that's not loving. Calvinists say that is God's Sovereign redemptive plan laid from the beginning of time even before the foundations of the world and it is for the sole purpose of glorifying Himself and not for any purpose of man.

Arminians say that God purposing to allow some to perish is not a God of love. Calvinists say that every man on earth deserves eternal punishment and God's judgment and wrath requires it...thankfully Christ's blood atones for the sins of His Children.

I know I'm not winning any debate with this post...but it does help show the wide, wide chasm between Jacob Arminius' and John Welsey's views and interpretation of Scripture on these subjects when contrasted to that of Augustine, Calvin, Gill, Edwards, Whitfield, Spurgeon, and R. C. Sproul on the same subjects.

To God be the Glory

 

[JM]

What about the flips side, the election or reprobation of the wicked to hell? I haven't followed this thread so if I repeat anything just wink at my double posting of facts. (Notes or commentary are taken from Loraine Boettner's book titled the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination.)

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,” Prov. 16:4.

“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,” I Peter 2:8.

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4.

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,” Rev. 17:17.

We also see “vessels of wrath” which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,” were “endured with much long suffering” in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power known”; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory” in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory” upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).

“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,” Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” Rom. 2:5.

“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,” II Thess. 2:11.

“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,” Acts 13:41.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,” John 12:39, 40.

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,” Matt. 25:41

“For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,” John 9:39.

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,” Matt. 11:25.

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine,” Matt. 7:6.

The Holy Spirit has been pleased to repeat six times over in the New Testament this passage from Isaiah (Matt. 13:14, 15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Acts 28:27: Rom. 11:9, 10).

“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day,” Deut. 2:30.

“For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.” Joshua 11:20.

“For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth,” Rom. 9:17 (see also Ex. 9:16)

I was never 'taught' calvinist theology, I've always been a calvinist from the day I was born again. Does anyone still not see election in Scripture?

SP

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by: MbiaJc

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I give up where did I? I went back through the post, I must have thought (wrongly) you were one of the ones saying man can't come to God till he is "quickened" by the Spirit. sorry

that's alright, I just wanted my position to be clear.

 

[JM]

(I'm not picking on you bro, this post just makes for a good point)

Logical fallacy #4: The argument to experience.

Just because you "believe" something doesn't make it so. An example that we would agree with: Charismatics and the gifts of the Spirit.

If the doctrine is so obvious and so clear, then there would not be the great disagreement.

Show 1 scripture that presents elect sinners walking around, and I'll be a calvinist too.

Good thing I posted Scripture to back my point...Sola Scriptura!!!! (no offence at all, my skin has gotten thick)

BT, when you were born again, was it an experiance? Did you feel as if God saved you, a sinner or did you know you made a choice that saved you?

The point of my posting what I did was to explain that no one taught me calvinism...it was a direct reading of Romans consistant with what I had experianced.

I think you and I (and most Christians) 'feel' they were saved from sin by the power of God. (am I wrong?)

Peace

 

[JM]

Sorry BT, you asked a question about elect sinners.

It only makes sense, if they were/are elect from the foundations of the world, then they would have to walk around as sinners. Even your theology allows for it, if foreknowledge is based on a sinner chosing the Gospel and God elects them to be conformed to the image of Christ, they would have to walk around as sinners....

They are elected to be born again in God's time, when they hear the Gospel. The wicked elect, who are chosen by God to harden there hearts walk around as well. See other post.

It is God's will, not ours. Php. 2:13

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. [font=arial, helvetica]- Romans 8:33[/font]

God wouldn't have an elect based on His will, it would be based on the sinner's will.​

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Sorry BT, you asked a question about elect sinners.

It only makes sense, if they were/are elect from the foundations of the world, then they would have to walk around as sinners. Even your theology allows for it, if foreknowledge is based on a sinner chosing the Gospel and God elects them to be conformed to the image of Christ, they would have to walk around as sinners....

They are elected to be born again in God's time, when they hear the Gospel. The wicked elect, who are chosen by God to harden there hearts walk around as well. See other post.

It is God's will, not ours. Php. 2:13

God wouldn't have an elect based on His will, it would be based on the sinner's will. ​

John 4:23-24 talks about God being Spirit...
1 thes 5:23 talks about man being three parts:..... body, soul and spirit
Gal 5:17 flesh lusts against the spirit
2 peter 2:11 fleshly lust war against the soul

God gives desires in the spirit...in short but according to philipians 2:12 there is a choice for all believers to obey or not

Only way man would believe is if God saved some from hell ...

we all deserve to go to hell

God gave a gift to some...


if by a sinner will they fall short romans 3:23...

 

[JM]

Did these folks have a choice?

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,” Prov. 16:4.

“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,” I Peter 2:8.

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4.

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,” Rev. 17:17.

We also see “vessels of wrath” which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,” were “endured with much long suffering” in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power known”; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory” in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory” upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).

“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,” Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” Rom. 2:5.

“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,” II Thess. 2:11.

“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,” Acts 13:41.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,” John 12:39, 40.

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,” Matt. 25:41

“For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,” John 9:39.

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,” Matt. 11:25.

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine,” Matt. 7:6.

The Holy Spirit has been pleased to repeat six times over in the New Testament this passage from Isaiah (Matt. 13:14, 15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Acts 28:27: Rom. 11:9, 10).

“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day,” Deut. 2:30.

“For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.” Joshua 11:20.

“For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth,” Rom. 9:17 (see also Ex. 9:16)

We can be sure at least one was elected never to come to Christ, the son of perdition in John 17, he was lost for fulfill Scripture.

Non-Calvinists still have a problem to deal when they deny election. If election is based on the foreknowledge of God knowing that you would accept the Gospel, then God still created a mass of people that would only be sent to hell for not believing the Gospel. Another point, if Jesus died for everyone the God would give everyone a chance to accept the Gospel, but He doesn't. We all agree no salvation exists outside of Jesus Christ, so the many pagan nations and peoples who never heard the Gospel are left without the means by which to be saved....this is election.

"... And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ..."

"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)

Just look at the way Paul was converted, he was knocked off a horse and told to go! The idea of election (as listed above in the quotations I used) is clear. We clearly see those who were not elected, hence, you have a group of elect sinners.

Did Jesus die for all (not just the elect) and then not supply a way for all to least deny the Gospel?

If you have read the Book of Romans or human works such as the Five Pionts of Calvinism by Steele or the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Boettner and still don't believe in election, I can do nothing.

SP

 

[MbiaJc]

Hi Justin

I believe that Lockheed has given the appropriate scripture references and correct interpretation in this thread. I cannot add to what he has stated. This is a debate which has gone on for centuries and will not stop on this thread. Augustine and Pelagius had the same debate, so did Edwards, Whitfield, John Gill, and Spurgeon versus some of their contemporaries. I choose to side with Gill and R. C. Sproul with the view that the New Covenant in Christ's blood is a covenant of grace.

You have a right to believe what you won’t. However none of them has given any thing to prove their point.

Hebrews, Colossians, Romans, and more all teach clearly that the Covenant with Israel was one of works, one that man could not keep, one that stands today only to show us our sin.

Agreed with one addition: The Law was given to show how exceeding sinful sin is. And as a school master lead us to Jesus Christ.

It appears to me that the Arminian and "Calvinist" debaters disagree on our doctrine of the fall, and our doctrine of the Sovereignty of God. That is why we disagree in our doctrine of salvation.

I have no idea what either teach.

I believe that the gospel is 'good news' because of its complete absence of prerequisite of works or merit. Man cannot deserve salvation, man is unable to pay the sin debt by his own merit.

I agree whole heartedly.

Many appropriate Scripture references toward this doctrine have been given throughout this thread. I'll point to a few;



Deuteronomy Chpt 32

Isaiah Chapters 14 and 46.

Ezekiel Chapter 36

John Chapter 6 and 15

Acts Chp. 2,4

Romans Ch. 3,5,8,9

Eph Ch. 1,2

1 Pet 2

Rev Ch. 17, 20

Non of these prove your point to me.

Man cannot come to Christ on his own because of the fall. Total Depravity.

Not so! It is not because of Adams sin, it is because of our choosing to sin because we inherited Adams sin nature, which he had before he sinned. Adams sin or the original sin as some call it has nothing to do with it. It is the sin nature we inherited from Adam.

When God says He knew me before he formed me in the womb...when God says He knew me before the foundation of the world, I believe He knew me personally. It was not due to anything I would do, it was not due to any merit of my own.

I agree whole heartedly.

Unconditional Election.

No election is not unconditional, one has a choice to make.

Those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundations of the world will be cast into the lake of fire.

I agree whole heartedly

Limited Atonement.

Not so! There is not atonement there to be limited.

Our Sovereign and all-powerful God is unwilling that any of His children should perish and will ensure that His plans are carried out perfectly. Irrisistable Grace & Perseverance of the saints.

So you are saying now that all will be saved??????????????

The Arminian view, that God elects based on Him 'foreknowing who would choose Him' can only be proven with the doctrine of prevenient grace (which I disagree with) and differs from my understanding of the meaning of foreknew.

That your privilege to disagree, however I agree.

I can't help but thinking that the Arminian view makes the saved man somehow deserving or meriting salvation by his own choice. This, at least for me, doesn't allow for an all-powerful Sovereign God who is perfectly working his plan in the entire creation.

Not so! If I come to your house offer you the keys to a new car. You take the keys believing it is my can and I can give it to you if I wish. You take the keys, by taking them the car is yours. Have you earned the car? Of course not, same with God gift of salvation to us.

It is kind of like the chicken and the egg conundrum. What came first? The believer's choice to believe, then salvation. Or the gift of faith which brings salvation, the ability to choose Christ, and spiritual gifts.

Well it like this we are saved by the Grace of God (unmerited favor) through the faith of Jesus Christ not of yourself lest anyone should boast.



In the gift of the car could you boast of your works or boast of the gift and giver?

The Arminian view, as I understand it, would have prevenient grace given to all of humanity, and God saw beforehand who would chose Christ and who would reject Him.



The Calvinist view would say that the Holy Spirit made you alive in Christ, and it was not until then that you were able to see your sin, and to choose Christ.



Arminians say that God choosing a remnant to be saved and kept only by what He does is not fair and that's not loving. Calvinists say that is God's Sovereign redemptive plan laid from the beginning of time even before the foundations of the world and it is for the sole purpose of glorifying Himself and not for any purpose of man.



Arminians say that God purposing to allow some to perish is not a God of love. Calvinists say that every man on earth deserves eternal punishment and God's judgment and wrath requires it...thankfully Christ's blood atones for the sins of His Children.

I have no idea what Arminian or Calvinists teach and it don’t matter to me. I just know what I believe the Bible teaches.



It like this God mercy and justice hast to be satisfied. If God chooses some without giving all a chance, then mercy will cry foul. If he chooses all then justice will cry foul. It is only in what He chose before the foundation of the world that both are satisfied. He chose to give the power to become sons of God to the ones that would believe in His son Jesus Christ. Neither mercy or justice can cry foul because they both are satisfied. In no other way would both be satisfied.

I know I'm not winning any debate with this post...but it does help show the wide, wide chasm between Jacob Arminius' and John Welsey's views and interpretation of Scripture on these subjects when contrasted to that of Augustine, Calvin, Gill, Edwards, Whitfield, Spurgeon, and R. C. Sproul on the same subjects.

I don’t wont to heart your feelings, but I could care less what they teach. It is what I believe the Bible and only the Bible teaches that maters with me.

 

[MbiaJc]

Did these folks have a choice?

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,” Prov. 16:4.

“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,” I Peter 2:8.

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4.

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,” Rev. 17:17.

We also see “vessels of wrath” which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,” were “endured with much long suffering” in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power known”; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory” in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory” upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).

“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,” Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” Rom. 2:5.

“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,” II Thess. 2:11.

“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,” Acts 13:41.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,” John 12:39, 40.

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,” Matt. 25:41

“For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,” John 9:39.

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,” Matt. 11:25.

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine,” Matt. 7:6.

The Holy Spirit has been pleased to repeat six times over in the New Testament this passage from Isaiah (Matt. 13:14, 15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Acts 28:27: Rom. 11:9, 10).

“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day,” Deut. 2:30.

“For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.” Joshua 11:20.

“For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth,” Rom. 9:17 (see also Ex. 9:16)

We can be sure at least one was elected never to come to Christ, the son of perdition in John 17, he was lost for fulfill Scripture.

Non-Calvinists still have a problem to deal when they deny election. If election is based on the foreknowledge of God knowing that you would accept the Gospel, then God still created a mass of people that would only be sent to hell for not believing the Gospel. Another point, if Jesus died for everyone the God would give everyone a chance to accept the Gospel, but He doesn't. We all agree no salvation exists outside of Jesus Christ, so the many pagan nations and peoples who never heard the Gospel are left without the means by which to be saved....this is election.

"... And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ..."

"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)

Just look at the way Paul was converted, he was knocked off a horse and told to go! The idea of election (as listed above in the quotations I used) is clear. We clearly see those who were not elected, hence, you have a group of elect sinners.

Did Jesus die for all (not just the elect) and then not supply a way for all to least deny the Gospel?

If you have read the Book of Romans or human works such as the Five Pionts of Calvinism by Steele or the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Boettner and still don't believe in election, I can do nothing.

SP

Hi S Preacher

Before I answer you: Did these have a choice to make?

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Proverbs 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Proverbs 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. (pre-crucifixion even)

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.


If these had a choice then the ones you poted had and made their choice befoe they were condemned.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Hi S Preacher

Before I answer you: Did these have a choice to make?

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Proverbs 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Proverbs 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. (pre-crucifixion even)

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.


If these had a choice then the ones you poted had and made their choice befoe they were condemned.

read matt 11:21-24 did God reveal unto them so that they could repent

 

[JM]

I ran into God's arms so fast I don't recall! lol

If Jesus died for all, then why didn't God present the Gospel to all? We know salvation comes only by Jesus Christ, yet, most of mankind in history has died without ever hearing the word of God to make a choice...if that's not God electing a nation (a nation is a group of individuals), then I don't know what is. Yes I did make a choice, I accepted Christ when God enabled me to.

SP

 

[SteveR2021]

We know salvation comes only by Jesus Christ, yet, most of mankind in history has died without ever hearing the word of God to make a choice...

What tragedy!!!

if that's not God electing a nation (a nation is a group of individuals), then I don't know what is

That's NOT God electing a nation...that God's servants neglecting a nation!! Many more African souls have perished without Christ (as an example) NOT because God loves them less than Americans, but because Christians have loved them less than God.

People perish without Christ NOT because God wills it...PERISH THE THOUGHT! They perish without Christ because Christ's servants remain (to a large degree) indifferent.

Now, don't get me wrong...people go to Hell because they deserve it. BUT Christ loves them and He longs for them to turn to Him...He died for you; He died for me; and He died for every other soul on this other.

If God wanted robots (ie. predestination/election) He would have made us without free will. But, God wants us to choose to love Him and obey Him.

Just my opinion...and I do believe it is consistent with the whole of Scripture.

But I do love you Calvinists for so ardently defending the Word...even if I think you're wrong.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

2 tim 2:19 Neverless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His[sheep? John 10:26] ......

 

[SteveR2021]

Knowing has nothing to do with predestination. I know that today is Friday (Eastern) but I didn't make it so. Yes God knows who His children are...but what does that have to do with predestination/election???

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Knowing has nothing to do with predestination. I know that today is Friday (Eastern) but I didn't make it so. Yes God knows who His children are...but what does that have to do with predestination/election???

when did God know us.... before the world began..eph 1:4

God put some in the book of Life.. rev 17:8

why important... rev 20:11-15 those in it do not go here