Doctrine of Election

[DiscipleOfIAm]

This is one that has always confused me. I believe we find it in the book of Romans Chapters 9-12. I never knew anything about it until inquiring about Calvinists and then have been doing further study on it. I didn't even know it was in the Bible until then either. But, there it is! Now, how do we interpret it?

What's your take on it? I struggle with the idea that there are those "elect" that God has chosen and then the "non-elect". Which to me says that if you are the non-elect, no matter what, you won't be saved. How does free will fit into this? What makes us so special to be the elect, why? I realize that most hold true that within this elect, you still have the free will to choose, but if you're the non-elect, you never have a chance! I think it conflicts with the idea of Christ died for all to be saved and save the world.

Anyone?

God Bless!

 

[Crazy Liz]

I just had to write a paper where I was required to read what Calvin wrote in his Institutes about predestination, and was required to defend[/i] Calvin's position! Can you imagine me doing that????

Calvin relies on these passages in Romans, and is very logical, but he never in this context refers to God's love, except to contrast it with God's hate. I don't think the Bible as a whole teaches that God hates more people than God loves, as Calvin believes. I think it is debatable whether God actually hates any human being. There are a few verses that say God hates, but they are relatively few and obscure compared to all the scriptures that talk about God's love.

I found a hole or two in his argument. The biggest was that the used Ishmael and Esau as equivalent examples of people who despised God's covenant, where the Bible never says anything of the kind about Ishmael.

(In fact, I have become very aware of what an undeserved bad rep Ishmael receives in many biblical interpretations. I would like to see Christians give some careful theological reflection to the role of Ishmael as the scapegoat, and all of its ramifications. But that is :topic: to this thread.)

Anyway, I think it's good to study. You would want to read Chapters 21-24 of Volume 3. See how he makes his case, and see if it is convincing to you. He does include some very good critiques of other views than his own.

 

[BBAS 64]

This is one that has always confused me. I believe we find it in the book of Romans Chapters 9-12. I never knew anything about it until inquiring about Calvinists and then have been doing further study on it. I didn't even know it was in the Bible until then either. But, there it is! Now, how do we interpret it?

What's your take on it? I struggle with the idea that there are those "elect" that God has chosen and then the "non-elect". Which to me says that if you are the non-elect, no matter what, you won't be saved. How does free will fit into this? What makes us so special to be the elect, why? I realize that most hold true that within this elect, you still have the free will to choose, but if you're the non-elect, you never have a chance! I think it conflicts with the idea of Christ died for all to be saved and save the world.

Anyone?

God Bless!

Good Day, DiscipleofIam

I have bolded the part that I do not understand, where did you get that idea?

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Christ died for the Church which is the body of belivers.

His sheep, the ones given to him by the father, his people, the beliving ones, the chosen, the few, the ones that are of God.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

This is one that has always confused me. I believe we find it in the book of Romans Chapters 9-12. I never knew anything about it until inquiring about Calvinists and then have been doing further study on it. I didn't even know it was in the Bible until then either. But, there it is! Now, how do we interpret it?

What's your take on it? I struggle with the idea that there are those "elect" that God has chosen and then the "non-elect". Which to me says that if you are the non-elect, no matter what, you won't be saved. How does free will fit into this? What makes us so special to be the elect, why? I realize that most hold true that within this elect, you still have the free will to choose, but if you're the non-elect, you never have a chance! I think it conflicts with the idea of Christ died for all to be saved and save the world.

Anyone?

God Bless!

Calvinism is more than just the doctrine of election and the other "5 Points." Our beliefs are very Bible centered and it takes a very, very long time to fully comprehend everything that we believe. My suggestion is that you study the scripture and pray to God for spiritual discernment.

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

Try this for a thought: The plan of salvation and the entity of the church were predestined before the foundations of the world...NOT individual believers.

 

[Diakoneo]

Hey disciple I can make it real simple for you, because I had a real struggle with Calvinism and whether or not it was true (I am of the somewhat strong belief that it is not btw).

Election has nothing to do with God's eternal decree for certain sinners to salvation and certain other sinners for destruction. Nothing at all. It is a misrepresentation/misunderstanding/misuse of scripture to imply otherwise IMHO.

The Scriptural meaning of election by context and usage is that:

- The Son of God was elected for the work of Calvary (1 Pet 1:19-20)
- Israel was elected to be the vehicle for the presentation of Christ (Rom 9:5)
- The Church was elected In Christ and predestinated to be to the praise of His glory (Eph 1:12)

A careful exposition of Romans 9 shows that it has been taken way out of context and crammed into a doctrinal supposition.

 

[Diakoneo]

Try this a thought: The plan of salvation and the entity of the church were predestined before the foundations of the world...NOT individual believers.

NAIL ON THE HEAD!!

 

[Diakoneo]

Calvinism is more than just the doctrine of election and the other "5 Points." Our beliefs are very Bible centered and it takes a very, very long time to fully comprehend everything that we believe. My suggestion is that you study the scripture and pray to God for spiritual discernment.

*disclaimer - I suggest that everyone study the scripture and pray to God for scriptural discernment. Leave "Institutes" on the shelf, it is not inspired, and don't study the scripture looking for "proof" of your dogma. Leave the dogma at the door and let the Word speak!

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

*disclaimer - I suggest that everyone study the scripture and pray to God for scriptural discernment. Leave "Institutes" on the shelf, it is not inspired, and don't study the scripture looking for "proof" of your dogma. Leave the dogma at the door and let the Word speak!

How funny. I have never once touched the Institutes. My beliefs are in fact based upon the Bible. God brought me back into His flock in 2003 and I continued to attend my free will Baptist church for another year. I spent a great deal of time listening to the Old and New Testiment on the road (I travel a lot for work). I was convinced of this Biblical theology from scripture, not from any man's writings concerning scripture. It is true that I now read books that are written by Calvinists but that is because I have studied the scripture and found these things to be true.

 

[BBAS 64]

Try this for a thought: The plan of salvation and the entity of the church were predestined before the foundations of the world...NOT individual believers.

Good Day Unimportant

Questions if I might, for the sake of the question I will assume you are correct. Is not the church made up of individual "people"?
God predestined a group of "belivers", with out any belivers?
Did Christ die for a group that could have contained "no one"?
Who was saved at the cross, Did his work at the cross save anyone objectively?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BT]

Let's please try to keep this discussion civil. We all know the way that this topic tends to trend downhill quickly.

NO DEBATING BY NON-BAPTIST-ANABAPTIST POSTERS IS PERMITTED. Please see the forum specific rules for the guidelines on posting in here. We value your friendship but will not tolerate debating.


MOD HAT OFF

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

Let's please try to keep this discussion civil. We all know the way that this topic tends to trend downhill quickly.

NO DEBATING BY NON-BAPTIST-ANABAPTIST POSTERS IS PERMITTED. Please see the forum specific rules for the guidelines on posting in here. We value your friendship but will not tolerate debating.


MOD HAT OFF

I didn't see any non-baptist-anabaptists debating. Are you going by the symbol on the top left of the poster as to whether or not they are baptist or anabaptist? That's silly because anyone can go and change their label in their profile at any time. My particular denomination is United Brtehren in Christ, which does fall into the category of Baptist/Anabaptist, but I choose to have the "Christian" symbol on my profile.

Back to the point, thank you all for your insight. As I stated in the OP, I find this particular doctrine/belief confusing and very deep. I'm not familiar with any other Calvin view, at least not that I know of. I'd probably be surprised. Anyway, the OP was designed to take aim at a particular group, just this particular doctrine.

God Bless!

 

[Lockheed]

Right BBAS 64...

- Reformed Baptist -"...born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

 

[Bingle]

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The fact is us is people, that is, individuals. The problem I have with Calvinism is that Christ was the 'propitiation for the sins of the whole world', 'in due time he died for the ungodly', etc.

Some people think that God's election was based on his foreknowledge of us choosing him. This doesn't fit for many reasons in my opinion though. So in the end this doctrine is too big for my brain.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Let's please try to keep this discussion civil. We all know the way that this topic tends to trend downhill quickly.

NO DEBATING BY NON-BAPTIST-ANABAPTIST POSTERS IS PERMITTED. Please see the forum specific rules for the guidelines on posting in here. We value your friendship but will not tolerate debating.


MOD HAT OFF

Okay, where would you put me? I have attended a Baptist church from age 8 until 23. I now attend a reformed Presbyterian church because it is the only Calvinistic church in my area that I have felt at home. I listen to Presbyterian and Baptist preachers online with equal interest. Also, I have recently began to seriously question the practice of infant baptism, esp. since my first baby could come anyday and so the issue will soon affect me. So do I come close enough to fit the Baptist and Reformed bill?

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Wilfred

I would say that you fall with in the Reformed Baptist camp IMHO, but I am not a mod.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Good Day, Wilfred

I would say that you fall with in the Reformed Baptist camp IMHO, but I am not a mod.

Peace to u,

Bill

Thanks for the support!

Although I should also mention that I do prefer the more liturgical worship style that is used in PCA churches; meaning that I could stay Baptist in my beliefs of who should be baptised but remain PCA for the rest of my life. It is just that to the best of my knowledge, the biggest doctrinal difference between a Reformed Baptist and a Reformed Presbyterian is infant baptism, and I guess mode. Anyway, it really doesn't matter and I will happily follow whatever the mods think in this case.

 

[ksen]

Try this for a thought: The plan of salvation and the entity of the church were predestined before the foundations of the world...NOT individual believers.

Can you have a forest without trees? Then how can you have a church without individual believers?

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

Can you have a forest without trees? Then how can you have a church without individual believers?

The better question is: "can you have a corporation without workers?"

The answer.....YES, you can. I have fully studied Calvinism and the Scripture thebeliefs are based upon and have concluded that the Bible does not teach the Calvinists beliefs. The reason I believe in corporate election is simply because of the options it does contradict or leave out in part of the Scripture.

2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 (NASB).

 

[Lockheed]

Bingle,

What was God's INTENTION in Christ's death, to make salvation possible or to atone for the sins of His people?