Doctrine: Is It Really Worth Arguing Over?

SQLservant

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Perhaps she meant "regretted making man," rather than "repented of, &c." The meaning and implications of that are a wholly separate topic of debate.

However, this is a great illustration of what I'm asking about. We cannot say that our brethren are unregenerate, but where ought the line be drawn concerning unorthodox beliefs? Paul's words of "let him be accursed," and the Councils' use of the same, come to mind. Since we have established that doctrine is a matter of argument, where should one stop and say "I cannot have fellowship with one who teaches this"? And why there rather than elsewhere?
 
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x141

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For all my concern over what is true doctrine, and what is the proper response thereto, I've come to a rather hard question:

Does any of it really matter?

Paul wrote to the Corinthians that no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Whatever one builds on this foundation, they will be saved, whether with a reward or through loss. This looks like it says that so long as Christ is made the sure foundation, no other doctrine really matters. If it doesn't really matter, how can we say that it is wrong to hold to, and how can we be sure that the things we believe or do aren't really the wood, straw, and stubble that Paul speaks of? Why are heresy and schism said to be so terrible if the heretics are still saved in spite of their misconceptions? Is orthodoxy just a nice extra to have, but not really worth worrying about?

How do I answer this? Just how important is the truth, anyway?

If our eye is single, it doesn't matter, it is when it is not single that division begins, firstly in ourselves and then this perception we impose on others who are around us. Some of christ, some of paul, some of peter ...

Even though the holy ghost filled the people that Peter was talking to in
Cornelius' house (before he even finished speaking, gez ... God's got some nerve), he still wanted them to do everything that they had done, so as for it to be right in what they percieved the truth to be at that time.

We must understand that the foundation is the house just as the seed of the woman is the life of the woman, we are all of one, and it is into one that we are being gathered, both within us and through this, with each other.
 
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x141

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Tolerance is not submitting that all doctrines are valid, but that the person you are debating with has the right to be wrong, and you have the right to persuade him otherwise.

This is with the assumption that you are the one that is right.
 
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back2thebible

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Its always good to stand up for what is true, putting people to death for disagreeing with your doctrine is where you can plainly see who is a part of the body and who is not. In fact I would say the bible teaches its even wrong to discuss doctrine with a person who has no intention or mindset of seeking what is true, you can rebuke such a person, but to continually strive against this person is a waste of productive time
 
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x141

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Yes, your intitled to your belief. That does not you right. In fact I have huge problems with what you just said. Biggest of all is that God repented making humanity. For God to repent means that he sinned, God DOes not sin. If God sinned Christianity is pointless as Christ would be a sinner like God and no propitiation for sin. I can except you believe what you believe but I do not except that it is biblical or Christian. As a reformed Christianity I do not presume that I was the first person to read the bible, there is 2000 years of Christians before me and all the men capable of area it's uncharitable to think in there collective godly wisdom that they got nothing right. Before I'm judged for being judgmental although I think your in error I do not know you and cannot say you are unregenerate.

It is in the third day that he rasies us up to see as he sees ... I'm sure the ones that followed the pharisees teachings thought much the same about them as well.

Jesus said, the one who leads you, personally, into all truth, is in you.

Rom 10:6-8 But the righteousness (he is our righteousness) which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
 
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x141

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Not really; if I am wrong, others have the right to persuade me otherwise as well. And I would rather like them to, if such be the case.

If you ever pastor a church, you will find it is not what you speak that changes people, but what he speaks in them.

Joh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Job 42:5-6 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
 
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SQLservant

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Where do you read "personally" in there? No one before the Radical Reformation, maybe even before Pietism or the Restoration Movement or the Charismatic Movement, saw that as "The Holy Spirit will guide each and every one of you, individually, into all truth." If that's the case, why do we have a Bible? Or a Church? Why teach? Why did Paul write his epistles, if the Holy Spirit would just take care of all those problem believers? Most importantly, why did everyone forget that for 16 to 19 centuries?
 
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x141

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Where do you read "personally" in there? No one before the Radical Reformation, maybe even before Pietism or the Restoration Movement or the Charismatic Movement, saw that as "The Holy Spirit will guide each and every one of you, individually, into all truth." If that's the case, why do we have a Bible? Or a Church? Why teach? Why did Paul write his epistles, if the Holy Spirit would just take care of all those problem believers? Most importantly, why did everyone forget that for 16 to 19 centuries?

Enoch had no Bible ... but neither did Moses and everyone else who came before Moses. Abraham is the father of faith, or so they call him, but the word of the Lord was revealed to him, Jesus saying He saw my Day or his light, much like Samuel.

Joh_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Joh_14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

If you do a whole Bible study on the gifts given and whom they were given to which tie closely to the feasts, specifically the one Peter mentioned and how he mentioned it, and allow the spirit to open it to you, then you will see how they forgot who they were, and became contaray to themselves.

The increase of this kingdom in you or the entering into this all truth has no end or measurement other than the measure we bring to it with our soul, which we are supposed to lose to gain, this is the walk and the pattern Jesus laid out for us, and the pattern in the garden from the beginning.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Having all our theological t's and i's rightly crossed and dotted never saved anyone.

However, what we think about God matters, and makes all the difference in how we try to apply faith to our life. If I think God is a cruel tyrant waiting in earnest to find an excuse to smite everyone, then that's going to reflect on how I walk around on planet earth and respond to my neighbor. And it's not going to look very Christlike either.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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motherprayer

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ViaCrucis said:
Having all our theological t's and i's rightly crossed and dotted never saved anyone.

However, what we think about God matters, and makes all the difference in how we try to apply faith to our life. If I think God is a cruel tyrant waiting in earnest to find an excuse to smite everyone, then that's going to reflect on how I walk around on planet earth and respond to my neighbor. And it's not going to look very Christlike either.

-CryptoLutheran

Amen. And Amen AGAIN!
 
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Lysimachus

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I like how Misses Ellen Gould White put it:

The truth and the glory of God are inseparable; it is impossible for us, with the Bible within our reach, to honor God by erroneous opinions. Many claim that it matters not what one believes, if his life is only right. But the life is molded by the faith. If light and truth is within our reach, and we neglect to improve the privilege of hearing and seeing it, we virtually reject it; we are choosing darkness rather than light.

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs 16:25. Ignorance is no excuse for error or sin, when there is every opportunity to know the will of God. A man is traveling and comes to a place where there are several roads and a guideboard indicating where each one leads. If he disregards the guideboard, and takes whichever road seems to him to be right, he may be ever so sincere, but will in all probability find himself on the wrong road.

God has given us His word that we may become acquainted with its teachings and know for ourselves what He requires of us. When the lawyer came to Jesus with the inquiry, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" the Saviour referred him to the Scriptures, saying: "What is written in the law? how readest thou?" Ignorance will not excuse young or old, nor release them from the punishment due for the transgression of God's law; because there is in their hands a faithful presentation of that law and of its principles and claims. It is not enough to have good intentions; it is not enough to do what a man thinks is right or what the minister tells him is right. His soul's salvation is at stake, and he should search the Scriptures for himself. However strong may be his convictions, however confident he may be that the minister knows what is truth, this is not his foundation. He has a chart pointing out every waymark on the heavenward journey, and he ought not to guess at anything.

It is the first and highest duty of every rational being to learn from the Scriptures what is truth, and then to walk in the light and encourage others to follow his example. We should day by day study the Bible diligently, weighing every thought and comparing scripture with scripture. With divine help we are to form our opinions for ourselves as we are to answer for ourselves before God.

The truths most plainly revealed in the Bible have been involved in doubt and darkness by learned men, who, with a pretense of great wisdom, teach that the Scriptures have a mystical, a secret, spiritual meaning not apparent in the language employed. These men are false teachers. It was to such a class that Jesus declared: "Ye know not the Scriptures, neither the power of God." Mark 12:24. The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given the promise: "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." John 7:17. If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error. (The Great Controversy, p. 598)
(Ellen Gould White, The Great Controversy, pp. 597, 598)

Faith in a lie will not have a sanctifying influence upon the life or character. No error is truth, or can be made truth by repetition, or by faith in it. Sincerity will never save a soul from the consequences of believing an error. Without sincerity there is no true religion, but sincerity in a false religion will never save a man. I may be perfectly sincere in following a wrong road, but that will not make it the right road, or bring me to the place I wished to reach. The Lord does not want us to have a blind credulity, and call that the faith that sanctifies. The truth is the principle that sanctifies, and therefore it becomes us to know what is truth. We must compare spiritual things with spiritual. We must prove all things, but hold fast only that which is good, that which bears the divine credentials, which lays before us the true motives and principles which should prompt us to action.—Letter 12, 1890. (Ellen Gould White, 2 Selected Messages, p. 56)

Some who are unacquainted with the Bible think that what the ministers tell them must be true. They do not, like the noble Bereans, search the Scriptures for themselves; but they accept the statements of those who have studied the word of God, not to learn the truth, but to sustain false doctrines, to justify their own theories. Many times these false theories are a jumble of inconsistencies; and if men would use their reason, and take the Bible as it reads, they would see the absurdity of their positions. The plain "Thus saith the Lord," would dispel their errors, as the mist is dispelled by the glories of the rising sun.

As Protestants, the Bible, and the Bible alone, is the foundation of our faith; but by many "the Fathers" are quoted as authority. They do not come as humble learners in the school of Christ, saying, "Lord, what I know not, teach me. 'Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.'"

Says the wise man: "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Men may close their eyes to the plainest truths in the word of God, they may trample his law under their feet; but the law, instituted in the beginning, proclaimed from Sinai, and engraven on tables of stone, will judge them in the last day.
(Ellen Gould White, The Signs of the Times, August 5, 1886 par 13-15)​
 
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seeingeyes

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Yes .Doctrine is scripture, so the question is: Do we follow the Bible or not.

Yes, your intitled to your belief. That does not you right. In fact I have huge problems with what you just said. Biggest of all is that God repented making humanity. For God to repent means that he sinned, God DOes not sin. If God sinned Christianity is pointless as Christ would be a sinner like God and no propitiation for sin. I can except you believe what you believe but I do not except that it is biblical or Christian. As a reformed Christianity I do not presume that I was the first person to read the bible, there is 2000 years of Christians before me and all the men capable of area it's uncharitable to think in there collective godly wisdom that they got nothing right. Before I'm judged for being judgmental although I think your in error I do not know you and cannot say you are unregenerate.

"And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man and beast, and the creeping animal, and the fowls of the air; for I repent that I have made them."(Gen 6:7)

:scratch:
 
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If Not For Grace

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as long as you have Christ as your foundation, the rest is of little final importance
.

Don't skip of what the IF is..IF Christ is your foundation-then IT is finished. The rest is of NO importance but will be done...because of the foundation.
 
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Nova Scotian Boy

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"And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man and beast, and the creeping animal, and the fowls of the air; for I repent that I have made them."(Gen 6:7)

:scratch:

I understand that this verse exists, but any idea that it is emotion on the same plain as humans I and the historical church reject.

In the days of Noah, man’s perversion was so great that “every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Gen. 6:5). Humanity in bondage to sin was (and is, Rom. 3:23) corrupt in its entire being.

Moses continues detailing God’s response to human depravity, writing of His sorrow at man’s evil and His regret that He created humanity. As such, the Lord pledges to wipe out every created thing, both men and those things corrupted by their evil (Gen. 6:6–7).

When we read passages like these that speak of the Lord’s sorrow or, in the King James Version, His “repentance,” we must be careful not to fall into two different errors. The first is to assume divine regret is the same as ours. Many so-called evangelicals who espouse Open Theism read these passages and assert God changes His mind and experiences sorrow in response to unknown future events. Because our feelings and plans change when the unexpected happens, these theologians posit the Lord can only truly do the same if He does not have full knowledge of what tomorrow will bring.

Faithful interpreters of Scripture, however, recognize the absurdity of this position. Our Creator’s full knowledge of all things yet to come is affirmed repeatedly in the Bible (Isa. 46:8–10; Rev. 4:1). Furthermore, Moses later teaches that God’s “repentance” is different from the sorrow expressed by man (Num. 23:19).

We are important to the Lord, and He expresses grief and anger when we sin, albeit in a manner appropriate to His own nature. Yet He is never incapacitated by such emotions, tomorrow never surprises Him, and His character never changes. God ordains all things (Eph. 1:11), whether or not they bring Him joy. Ultimately, He does this for His good purpose (Ps. 135:6). He has a real relationship with His sin-stricken people and this necessarily means a real, divine, affective response to us.

To me this idea of "repent" was not what the motherprayer had in mind. I could be wrong, if so im sorry i misrepresented.
 
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If Not For Grace

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I saw this in another thread-and believe it applies to the topic here

A poster named GraceSeeker wrote something on ANOTHER thread that says

Jesus was intolerant of selfishness, he was intolerant of hypocrisy, and he was intolerant of sin. Yet, Jesus was so filled with grace, that he could tolerate relating to people who were guilty of the very things of which he was intolerant. Some of them, Jesus even called to be his disciples.

This Sunday (first Sunday in October) we celebrate World Communion Sunday. One of the things that I like to remind myself of on this occassion, is that not all Christians are in full agreement with me on everything, but that's OK. Christ tolerates us all enough to call us his brothers and sisters. If he can see us this way, then I believe we should be willing to do the same.


I believe that support the position of "it's NOT worth arguing about" and at the same times tells us what we should do and how we should act..
 
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x141

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Right on!!!:thumbsup: Let the heritics teach away and oppose no lie. Then the truth will not exist.

Why would a seeker even pose such a question?

What would they be seeking?

bugkiller

Something that you must lose your soul to find, or become as a child to enter or to see.
 
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SQLservant

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What matters most is someone's standing with God, both Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy are helpful indicators of such, but it is not the be all and end all

Is it not possible that they can not only indicate, but also help one's standing with God, such as through example?
 
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