Doctors of Christian Forums: God or hallucinations

fishmansf

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Not sure if this is the right thread but seems most close to it. A long time ago Answers in Genesis posted a response to a skeptic (Benny Shannon) saying that Moses did not hear the voice of God but rather imbibed a “magical” potion from the bark of the Acacia wood which has hallucinogenic affects which give the consumer the feeling of being in the presence of God. Answers in Genesis, while a great tool for apologetics, often fails to confront or respond to the claims of the skeptics. In this case, they simply state that there is another skeptic who tries to rationalize the Bible, without giving any kind of response. Doctors and apologists of Christian Forums, I’m curious to hear how you would argue this claim by Benny Shannon?

source: Moses: Talking with God, or on Hallucinogens?
 
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pdudgeon

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Not sure if this is the right thread but seems most close to it. A long time ago Answers in Genesis posted a response to a skeptic (Benny Shannon) saying that Moses did not hear the voice of God but rather imbibed a “magical” potion from the bark of the Acacia wood which has hallucinogenic affects which give the consumer the feeling of being in the presence of God. Answers in Genesis, while a great tool for apologetics, often fails to confront or respond to the claims of the skeptics. In this case, they simply state that there is another skeptic who tries to rationalize the Bible, without giving any kind of response. Doctors and apologists of Christian Forums, I’m curious to hear how you would argue this claim by Benny Shannon?

Linking to the post in question would prove helpful... just sayin'
 
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fishmansf

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Not sure if this is the right thread but seems most close to it. A long time ago Answers in Genesis posted a response to a skeptic (Benny Hanson) saying that Moses did not hear the voice of God but rather imbibed a “magical” potion from the bark of the Acacia wood which has hallucinogenic affects which give the consumer the feeling of being in the presence of God. Answers in Genesis, while a great tool for apologetics, often fails to confront or respond to the claims of the skeptics. In this case, they simply state that there is another skeptic who tries to rationalize the Bible, without giving any kind of response. Doctors and apologists of Christian Forums, I’m curious to hear how you would argue this claim by Benny Hanson?
Linking to the post in question would prove helpful... just sayin'
Linking to the post in question would prove helpful... just sayin'
was going to do that but forgot, thanks!
 
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Hammster

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Not sure if this is the right thread but seems most close to it. A long time ago Answers in Genesis posted a response to a skeptic (Benny Shannon) saying that Moses did not hear the voice of God but rather imbibed a “magical” potion from the bark of the Acacia wood which has hallucinogenic affects which give the consumer the feeling of being in the presence of God. Answers in Genesis, while a great tool for apologetics, often fails to confront or respond to the claims of the skeptics. In this case, they simply state that there is another skeptic who tries to rationalize the Bible, without giving any kind of response. Doctors and apologists of Christian Forums, I’m curious to hear how you would argue this claim by Benny Shannon?

source: Moses: Talking with God, or on Hallucinogens?
I think their response is that the Bible is clear what happened. We don’t need to look for “natural” explanations.
 
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Andrewn

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A long time ago Answers in Genesis posted a response to a skeptic (Benny Shannon) saying that Moses did not hear the voice of God but rather imbibed a “magical” potion from the bark of the Acacia wood which has hallucinogenic affects which give the consumer the feeling of being in the presence of God.
An entheogen is a psychoactive substance that induces alterations in perception, mood, consciousness, cognition, or behavior for the purposes of engendering spiritual development in sacred contexts. The religious, magical, shamanic, or spiritual significance of entheogens is well established in anthropological and modern contexts; entheogens have traditionally been used to supplement many diverse practices geared towards achieving transcendence, including divination, meditation, yoga, sensory deprivation, asceticism, prayer, trance, rituals, chanting, hymns like peyote songs, drumming, and ecstatic dance.

Entheogen - Wikipedia

While psychoactive drugs have been used in some religions (e.g. use of soma in Hindu religions), it is obvious that perceptual aberrations produced by these substances cannot produce anything as coherent as the Law of Moses.

Here is description of effects of marijuana for example:

"When marijuana is smoked, THC and other chemicals in the plant pass from the lungs into the bloodstream, which rapidly carries them throughout the body to the brain. The person begins to experience effects almost immediately (see "How does marijuana produce its effects?"). Many people experience a pleasant euphoria and sense of relaxation. Other common effects, which may vary dramatically among different people, include heightened sensory perception (e.g., brighter colors), laughter, altered perception of time, and increased appetite. . . . Pleasant experiences with marijuana are by no means universal. Instead of relaxation and euphoria, some people experience anxiety, fear, distrust, or panic."

What are marijuana's effects? | National Institute on Drug Abuse
 
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Brightmoon

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You stated that you cannot produce a coherent set of statements under the influence of a drug . I disagree with that as it depends on how experienced the drug user is . There’s a famous poet who wrote a long poem after waking up from a pipe dream (opium) . I would guess that would depend on the individual. And it would depend on whether the Mosaic laws were written by one person or not . Traditionally it’s supposed to be one but that might not be true.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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There is no evidence for drug use in the text, so this is merely reading something into it. Nor are hallucinogens common in Semitic religion. It is found in Indo-Iranian religion in the form of Soma (probably Ephedra) and in the Greek Pythia and her vapours; perhaps also the Lotus Eaters whoever they may be.

It seems unlikely to my mind that they would not have mentioned it, since there was no stigma in the ancient world from utilising substances to enter a sacred state. That said, they have found evidence of Cannabis in an old High Place in southern Judah, but it has not been established whether this was merely a resin or hemp used for other purposes.

Now onto Physiology. Looking up Acacia, it has been shown to decrease acetylcholinesterase activity. So essentially it would be that it floods the synapses with acetylcholine, by diminishing its breakdown. This would mimic organophosphate poisoning, from pesticides or rat-poison, so would result in copious secretions, slowing the heart rate, maybe muscle fasciculations. It would not be particularly psychotropic, but could certainly result in losing consciousness from the bradycardia. So this assumed mechanism doesn't make sense for a religious state of altered consciousness to arise, nor do I see textual or cultural examplars to suspect it.

Essentially, this is basically nonsense, in my opinion.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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You stated that you cannot produce a coherent set of statements under the influence of a drug . I disagree with that as it depends on how experienced the drug user is . There’s a famous poet who wrote a long poem after waking up from a pipe dream (opium) . I would guess that would depend on the individual. And it would depend on whether the Mosaic laws were written by one person or not . Traditionally it’s supposed to be one but that might not be true.
Are you referring to Kublai Khan of Coleridge? Firstly, few people really believe that story, and even Coleridge claimed only a few lines that he later fleshed out. The thing is, both he and Wordsworth had a complicated idea of Imagination as opposed to Fancy, so the idea of altered consciousness or a dreamer appeals to their aesthetic theory of Poetics. Some consider Coleridge's claim to be essentially a part of the poem itself, not just a fact he related.

Further, Opium has a depressant effect (except when giving paradoxical hyperalgesia, which is very painful), but is not known for being particularly hallucigenic. It creates euphoria and dissociation, but that is not the type of psychotropic effects implied here. Coleridge was supposedly meditating on a history of Kublai Khan anyway, so him jotting a few lines while on Opium is not really strange; but writing long coherent poems while in hallucigenic states would be. Even the Pythia's lines were 'interpreted' by a sober priest that listened to her going on.
 
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fishmansf

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There is no evidence for drug use in the text, so this is merely reading something into it. Nor are hallucinogens common in Semitic religion. It is found in Indo-Iranian religion in the form of Soma (probably Ephedra) and in the Greek Pythia and her vapours; perhaps also the Lotus Eaters whoever they may be.

It seems unlikely to my mind that they would not have mentioned it, since there was no stigma in the ancient world from utilising substances to enter a sacred state. That said, they have found evidence of Cannabis in an old High Place in southern Judah, but it has not been established whether this was merely a resin or hemp used for other purposes.

Now onto Physiology. Looking up Acacia, it has been shown to decrease acetylcholinesterase activity. So essentially it would be that it floods the synapses with acetylcholine, by diminishing its breakdown. This would mimic organophosphate poisoning, from pesticides or rat-poison, so would result in copious secretions, slowing the heart rate, maybe muscle fasciculations. It would not be particularly psychotropic, but could certainly result in losing consciousness from the bradycardia. So this assumed mechanism doesn't make sense for a religious state of altered consciousness to arise, nor do I see textual or cultural examplars to suspect it.

Essentially, this is basically nonsense, in my opinion.
Very interesting. Thanks for your insight.
 
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fishmansf

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There is no evidence for drug use in the text, so this is merely reading something into it. Nor are hallucinogens common in Semitic religion. It is found in Indo-Iranian religion in the form of Soma (probably Ephedra) and in the Greek Pythia and her vapours; perhaps also the Lotus Eaters whoever they may be.

It seems unlikely to my mind that they would not have mentioned it, since there was no stigma in the ancient world from utilising substances to enter a sacred state. That said, they have found evidence of Cannabis in an old High Place in southern Judah, but it has not been established whether this was merely a resin or hemp used for other purposes.

Now onto Physiology. Looking up Acacia, it has been shown to decrease acetylcholinesterase activity. So essentially it would be that it floods the synapses with acetylcholine, by diminishing its breakdown. This would mimic organophosphate poisoning, from pesticides or rat-poison, so would result in copious secretions, slowing the heart rate, maybe muscle fasciculations. It would not be particularly psychotropic, but could certainly result in losing consciousness from the bradycardia. So this assumed mechanism doesn't make sense for a religious state of altered consciousness to arise, nor do I see textual or cultural examplars to suspect it.

Essentially, this is basically nonsense, in my opinion.
I think with the Cannabis, it is also important to point out that this region of the world did largely use hemp for farming material. Even if that is not the case, Cannabis on its own does not produce the emotions required to feel as if you were standing in the presence of the Most High or even out you into a psychotropic state to hallucinate something as glorious as the Father sitting upon the Throne.
 
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Bob Crowley

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Without knowing anything about hallucinogenic drugs, the parts of the Bible leading up to and succeeding the issue of the Mosaic Laws are written in a clear and logical way.

Also what evidence did the atheist have that Moses was high on some extract from acacia wood?

I think the assertion says more about the atheist than Moses. What predisposed the atheist to start thinking about a hallucinogenic drug?

A hobby of his?
 
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