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Do Your Best, and Jesus Makes Up For the Rest

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by jimmyjimmy, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    I believe they found favour with God, not that they were sinless. The Bible is clear, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Only Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life.
     
  2. Godlovesmetwo

    Godlovesmetwo Fringe Catholic

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    Do your best and pray for a rest.
     
  3. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Well, favor is earned, so your idea of charis being a gift and therefore not earned is wrong, both from an etymological standpoint, as well as in the context of its use in the Honor Shame societies prevalent in the Ancient Near East. In fact gifts were given to and favors were done for the favored, in return for showing faith.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  4. AarontheStudent

    AarontheStudent שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם

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    Actually, the 'context' is as simple as Paul needed a word for the Hebrew 'chen' as it was used all throughout the Hebrew Bible and he gave it 'charis' because of its similar qualities. The cultures of that time associated being favored with having beauty, thus eventually becoming called "grace" in English. The way 'charis' is used would appear to actually be an invention of Paul's for doctrinal purpose, an expounding on the old Hebrew.

    No academic literature I could find suggests 'charis' had as linear of a definition as you're giving it, either. Admittedly though I spent all of 15 minutes looking.

    ן
     
  5. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Here's 'chen' used to indicate beauty (rather than gift) in Ecclesiates and NT too:

    1. properly, that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech (Ecclesiastes 10:12; Sir. 21:16 Sir. 37:21; Homer, Odyssey 8, 175; τῶν λόγων, Demosthenes, 51, 9; 1419, 16; χάριτεςμωρῶν, verbal pleasantries which the foolish affect in order to ingratiate themselves, Sir. 20:13), λόγοι χάριτος(genitive of quality), Luke 4:22; χάρινδιδόναι τοῖς ἀκούουσιν, Ephesians 4:29; ἐν χάριτι, with grace (the substantive, ἅλας being added; see Lightfoot), Colossians 4:6.

    Ecclesiastes 10:12 Interlinear: Words of the mouth of the wise are gracious, And the lips of a fool swallow him up.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  6. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Didn't you say no one could keep the law? I've asked you what blameless means to you, and I have yet to hear an answer.

    I brought up those two because they did keep the law.
     
  7. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Here again, I said nothing about sinless. You keep wanting to bring this into the conversation. I said they were blameless in the law.
     
  8. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    For those among us who ignore very book of the NT, with the exception of James. here's a little treat: "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it." (James 2:10)
     
  9. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Sure, the Law of "Love your neighbour as yourself".
     
  10. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    So you're saying Zechariah and Elizabeth did not sin then?

    Here's what the Bible says:

    "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God..." - Romans 3:20-23
     
  11. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Which means they kept it perfectly.
     
  12. Hammster

    Hammster Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    No, not really.

    “though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.”
    ‭‭Philippians‬ ‭3:4-6‬ ‭ESV‬‬

    Paul's point wasn't that he thought he was perfect, but rather that he kept the law in a fashion that he could not be blamed. Iow, he did the required sacrifices for sins, etc.
     
  13. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Sure. I was responding to someone who was saying that because I referred to how the Bible says "all" have sinned (Paul also called himself the "chief" sinner) that I was somehow accusing Zechariah and Elizabeth of not being "blameless".

    Really, I have no idea where the conversation came from or why.

    God bless.
     
  14. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Luke 1:5-6
    5In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.


    I’m sure God wasn't confused like we are, but knew what standard of blamelessness to be applied in the above:


    Luke 18:9-14
    9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
     
  15. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    I don't know how anyone can believe all have sinned, no one is righteous, and also not accuse Zechariah and Elizabeth of not being blameless.
     
  16. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Your problem is with what Scripture says then, not with me.

    As such, I encourage you to continue reading and studying.

    God bless.
     
  17. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Do you understand what Jesus was saying in that parable?
     
  18. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Well, exactly.
     
  19. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Scripture says Zecharias and Elizabeth were blameless. Deal.
     
  20. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Sure, but why take my word for it:

    Quote
    4. The standard which the Pharisee used was comparative, not absolute.The Pharisee did not use the Law as his standard of measuring righteousness; rather, he compared himself with the publican. He saw himself as righteous simply because he was, in his opinion, better than the publican.

    (5) The Pharisee boldly approached God, seemingly without regard for His holiness or with a sense of his own unholiness. He almost seems to expect God to be grateful for his presence and prayers.

    (6) The Pharisee thanked God for nothing other than what he was, in and of himself. There was no mention of God’s graciousness, no realization of having been blessed by God. All this Pharisee thanked God for was that which he had achieved for himself.30

    (7) The Pharisee did not ask God for anything, because he did not believe that he lacked anything. The Pharisee was self-sufficient. He trusted only in himself, and he found himself sufficient; thus he asked nothing of God. While some of us may ask for too much or too often, this man didn’t ask at all.

    (8) This Pharisee not only saw himself as fully complying with the law, but he actually thought he had gone beyond it.31 The law did not require all that this Pharisee claims to have done for God in the keeping of the law, with respect to his outward acts of religious worship and service.32 Here is the epitome of arrogance. The law was given as a standard of righteousness, to show all men they are sinners. The law presents men with an impossible standard, which shows that works cannot save and that men must cast themselves upon the mercy and grace of God. But this Pharisee not only gets an “A” in obedience to the law, he thinks he has an “A+.”

    (9) This Pharisee is overflowing with self-love but is desperately lacking in love for God and love toward man. In our day we are being taught and told that man’s problem is that he thinks too little of himself. Low self-esteem has been identified by some as the cause of virtually every human malady. This Pharisee has more than his fair share of self-love, but he has all too little love for either God or man. Those who tell us that we must first love ourselves, before we can love God or our fellow-man, may need to look again at their creed.

    The tax-collector is just the opposite. He seems to have avoided public notice, and his only audience so far as he is concerned is God. He dares not look up to heaven. He knows he is a sinner33, and he is genuinely repentant. He is one of the blessed who presently “mourns,” as our Lord has said in the Sermon on the Mount (34 The Pharisee will go home just as he came, proud, self-righteous, and condemned. The penitent tax-collector will go home justified, because he has come to God as a sinner on the basis of His character—His grace, His mercy—and His provision (of salvation through atonement).

    56. Piety, Persistence, Penitence, and Prayer (Luke 18:1-14)

    Now you know how Zecharias and Elizabeth were found blameless.

    And quit using the text that says all men are sinners to prove total depravity. Paul was explaining to the competing factions, Jews and Gentiles, how both were bound over to disobedience, one by the law, the other by the conscience. Each was trying to show why they were included in the body of Christ. One through descent, (we are Abraham's seed!) the other through primacy ( The TEMPLE was destroyed!).
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
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