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Featured Do Your Best, and Jesus Makes Up For the Rest

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by jimmyjimmy, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. -V-

    -V- Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 5:48 - "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

    Doesn't this mean we are to strive for perfection? Is that not trying our best?

    Philippians 1:27-28 "Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; in no way alarmed by your opponents—which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God."

    Doesn't Paul commend "striving" for the Gospel? Isn't that trying our best? Paul says such striving is a "sign of salvation".

    2 Peter 1:5-7 - "For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith excellence, to excellence, knowledge; to knowledge, self-control; to self-control, perseverance; to perseverance, godliness; to godliness, brotherly affection; to brotherly affection, unselfish love."

    Doesn't "make every effort" mean we're supposed to try our best?

    Further, isn't humanity's failure the very reason why Jesus had to come? Didn't Jesus do what we could not? Doesn't that mean Jesus made up for our failure?

    Then why is "do your best, and Christ makes up the rest," so heartily condemned, when it seems to reflect exactly what Scripture tells us?
     
  2. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

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    It describes the Mormon view and all synergism, but not Biblical Christianity.
     
  3. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    I think the rcc teach there are two main types of sins , sins of commission and sins of omission

    Peter was quite okay with Ananias and Sapphira omitting to sell all they had.

    Acts 5:4
    4“While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control?

    No requirement to do one's best. Only requirement was not do evil things.

    That's the difference between the Old Covenant and the New.
     
  4. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    I don't remember help me out? Where in Scripture?
     
  5. Wordkeeper

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    Grace isn't a gift it's favour earned through faith.

    Quote
    So, an example of how the Patron-Client system can be relevant to Biblical interpretation is Hebrews 11:1.
    "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (NRSV)
    That is a rather horrible translation.

    The words "faith" (faithfulness) and "hoped" (expected), are technical terms in the Patron-Client system. As noted before, "faithfulness" denotes the client's loyalty to their patron (and also the patron's loyalty to the client). "Expect" denotes the hope of future favours. A client could validly expect favours from their Patron if they had been faithful to their Patron and served them well. Thus, in the first half of the verse we actually just have a basic statement about how the Patron-Client system works: If you are faithful you can expect favours. That's it. It's a summary of how a part of their every-day life society worked. The second half of the verse is just saying the same thing a different way: Our faithfulness testifies that we will receive favours that we haven't yet gotten (that we do not yet "see").

    Historically this verse has been a minefield for people arguing over the definiton of faithfulness. A huge amount of stuff has been written trying to nail down precisely what each of the words in the sentence meant in an effort to get a precise definition of "faith" out of it. (Unfortunately this didn't work too well as a few of the words in the sentence have a variety of translation possibilities) But as a result of these efforts a lot of people are convinced that the Bible here defines faith as belief in things we can't see. As a result of theologians' sterling efforts over the centuries in mining the bible for sentences such as this one they have had great fun in formulating exactly what it means to have "faith". "Faith" had become an almost-magical word, set apart from everyday life.

    That's one of the reasons, I suspect, that theologians have been relatively slow to pick up on the findings of the social sciences. The discovery of how the word "faithfulness" was actually used in the day-to-day life of the first century AD Mediterranean world has made hundreds of years of theological discussions worthless, and a lot of people don't like to let mere facts or evidence get in the way of their ideas and traditions. [Maybe I'm being too harsh, after all, the first book on the subject of linking Social Sciences with NT exegesis was only in 1981, and it was pretty badly written]


    Theo Geek: The Patron-Client system and Hebrews 11:1
     
  6. AarontheStudent

    AarontheStudent שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם

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    How would you translate the Greek χάρισμα then?
    χάρισμα
     
  7. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Quote
    Charis
    “Charis” (the greek word that is translated “grace”) originally meant “something that is pleasing”. It could refer to both aesthetic beauty (eg something charming, graceful, beautiful etc) or things causing general happiness (gifts, the favour of fortune, kindnesses). The central theme was that it denoted a gladdening effect. Important is the fact that it equally refers to the giver and receiver of any gift or favour or blessing. The giver gives a “favour” (Charis) and the receiver has “thanks” (Charis). This can be confusing and lead to ambiguity as we will see later. Looking at the meaning of the word by New Testament times, we see that the ideal translation of Charis is “favour” and that it means almost exactly what the English word favour means. There is an important distinction to be made between having someone’s favour and doing someone a favour. Having someone’s favour is an earned thing: you do something that pleases them, and you are then said to have their favour. There is no difference between the Greek and English here: Making someone pleased with you/gaining their favour (Charis) virtually always happens for a good reason and is not “unmerited”. However, “doing someone a favour”, is by definition unmerited in the sense that it just wouldn’t be a favour if it was earned. But important to note is that the Greeks had, like in English, the idea that a favour done merited the return of a favour - the whole “now you owe me one” idea. It should also be clear that if someone is pleased with you they are more likely to grant you favours! ie If you have earned their favour, they will grant you favours: Merited favour naturally leads to unmerited favours - Greek’s exactly the same as English in this regard.

    Theo Geek: Grace: Can we make God love us more?

    Carson agrees.
     
  8. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Double post
     
  9. AarontheStudent

    AarontheStudent שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם

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    In that Greek philosophy, the favor we return to God for his favor would be to not lose faith right?

    Of course, that raises anothere debate on if that's applicable, or if one can even lose faith.
     
  10. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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  11. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Never saw the phrase "faith alone". Did see a word that could be understood as alone, except the context does not allow it. Apart from the law means apart from converting to Judaism in order to receive baptism, a condition the Judaisers were insisting on.
     
  12. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The point is that charis originally meant beauty, grace, not gift, as in speaking of a person with great charisma.
     
  13. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    In most of these passages "faith in Christ" is seen as antithetical to "works of the Law" or "a righteousness of my own coming from the Law". This would refer to obedience to the Mosaic Law, including the 10 commandments. "Faith alone" is a shorthand way of saying that we are justified by our faith in Jesus and in his obedience and that our obedience to God's Law adds nothing to our justification.

    I'm not aware that any Judaizers afflicted the Roman congregation. What evidence do you have of this?
     
  14. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    You need to understand that Jesus is the fulfillment and "end" of the Law for all who believe.

    The Law points to Christ and also silences us before God, because none can keep it.

    Also, if you are somehow suggesting that Paul's letters are not actually Scripture, I do think that goes against some forum rules.
     
  15. Friend-of-Jesus

    Friend-of-Jesus Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly. Do your best, or do your worst - Jesus makes up for everything.
     
  16. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The church in Rome had a large Jewish faction. You can see Paul teaching against conversion to Judaism as a precondition to conversion to Christianity here:

    Romans 4:9-12
    9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,12and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
     
  17. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus returned to his home town Nazareth: Mark 6:5 (WEB) He could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people, and healed them.

    Jesus went to a synagogue in Nazareth and was teaching:
    Luke 4:23 (WEB) He said to them, “Doubtless you will tell me this parable, ‘Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we have heard done at Capernaum, do also here in your hometown.’” 24 He said, “Most certainly I tell you, no prophet is acceptable in his hometown. 25 But truly I tell you, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land. 26 Elijah was sent to none of them, except to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 There were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed, except Naaman, the Syrian.”
    28 They were all filled with wrath in the synagogue, as they heard these things. 29 They rose up, threw him out of the city, and led him to the brow of the hill that their city was built on, that they might throw him off the cliff. 30 But he, passing through the middle of them, went his way.

    Jesus could do no great miracles in Nazareth because they did not have faith enough to welcome him, but tried to kill him instead. If they had worked harder to greet and welcome him, they might have received greater gifts. In this case there is no way you can get saved by faith and not produce good works. Malicious gossip, slander and defamation do not come from good faith.
     
  18. AarontheStudent

    AarontheStudent שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם

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    Not anywhere in the Bible.

    "Favor of/from God" or "gift of/from god" on the other hand would seem accurate in a few of its instances, and the way it's used suggests it's A. intended by the authors as a religious concept familiar to the readers, and B. coming from God, or a characteristic of God. Seems to be one of the more blatant Biblical doctrines to me.
     
  19. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    1 How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered!
    2 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! (Psalms 32:1, NASB)
     
  20. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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    To an extent. All we have to do, is love God with all of our heart, mind, and souls, and how God describes us loving him, is obedience. Obedience to what? His word. His commandments. His word tells us how to live - being repentant, avoiding sin with the power of Christ, and observing all of the law as Jesus taught us to. There's part of the law that we can't follow right now, because we have no synagogue, have no divinely ordained judges, etc., but God calls us to do our best with what we have, where we are, and Christ will justify the rest. So in a way yeah, basically, do your best to become familiar with God's word, and fulfill it, just as Christ did. God understands that, being gentiles, coming from places where the torah is foreign, we won't instantly be able to fulfill everything, so don't fret yourself on that, just get acquainted, and trade the traditions of man, for the instruction of God, believing that your obedience is the fruit of your salvation, with Christ being the root, and you'll be perfect in our heavenly Father's eyes. If that answers your question.
     
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