Do you think the teen in Conneticut should be forced to take chemo?

keith99

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I work in health care (though not in oncology), and no one here has mentioned a provider's perspective. Honestly, if I were an oncologist, I'd be loathe to treat a patient under these circumstances. Chemo is a complicated, on-going process, requiring monitoring for side effects, and regular testing to determine the response. Medication dosing and schedules often must be adjusted. A strong, committed doctor-patient relationship is a must. Treating someone who is resentful and uncooperative could be disastrous. Just because the court ordered treatment doesn't mean she'll find a specialist who'll agree to provide it. Personally, I can't imagine treating a hostile, unwilling patient without a court order myself.

Which brings up another point. Should a physician be subject to contempt of court for refusing to treat a patient against her will? Don't medical providers have rights, too?

Most doctors seem to care more about a patients health than the problems. The only time many would decline to treat an uncooperative patient is when the level is so high that it all but insures failure.

My father was a pedodontist (childrens dentist) and I worked with him for several years. It was a rare patient who was happy to be there. Yes there were some, generally those who had near perfect check ups. There were some patients that were quite actively hostile. We never even thought of not treating one.

And in a few cases that meant a patient who had to be held down and where a bite block had to be put in place to keep their mouth open. (Bite blocks have a second use, they can help a cooperative patient keep open wide enough, especially for anything involved where yuo simply get tired).

That is better than a tooth becoming abscessed and at best lost, at worst being fatal. Yes abscessed teath can have fatal results.

In this girl's case the fatal results without proper treatment is all but a sure thing.
 
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Veritas

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Where is the medical evidence of alternative treatments that cure cancer. Solid, quantitative evidence from a properly certified source, not some quack website.

Amazingly, I have seen half a dozen people in my life be saved from an early death by surgery and chemo. I guess they must be rarities. :doh:

I guess you didn't see this.

Chemotherapy Can Inadvertently Encourage Cancer Growth - Medical News Today

A new study from the US finds that in the process of targeting and killing off cancer cells, chemotherapy may also spur healthy cells in the neighbourhood to release a compound that stimulates cancer growth, eventually leading to treatment resistance. They hope their finding will lead to better therapies for cancer and buy precious time for patients with advanced cancer.

The reason chemotherapy eventually fails when treating advanced cancer, said Nelson, is because the dose you would need to give the patient to wipe out the cancer would also kill the patient.


Or this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15630849

RESULTS:

The overall contribution of curative and adjuvant cytotoxic chemotherapy to 5-year survival in adults was estimated to be 2.3% in Australia and 2.1% in the USA.

CONCLUSION:

As the 5-year relative survival rate for cancer in Australia is now over 60%, it is clear that cytotoxic chemotherapy only makes a minor contribution to cancer survival. To justify the continued funding and availability of drugs used in cytotoxic chemotherapy, a rigorous evaluation of the cost-effectiveness and impact on quality of life is urgently required.



Oncology is the most fraudulent specialty out there. It's the only medical specialty where the doctors buy drugs wholesale from the drug companies and then grossly mark them up for profit. So the doc that diagnoses and treats you is the same one that profits off of it. As a result, the opportunity for fraud and malfeasance is very high.

Cancer doctor gave needless chemo in $35M fraud, prosecutors say - News - TODAY.com

Investigators say a popular doctor in Michigan with more than thousand patients was telling people they had cancer even when they didn't, then treating them, all for the money. Prosecutors say he was giving chemotherapy to people who didn't need it, some of whom didn't have cancer at all, as part of an alleged $35 million fraud.

Dr. Farid Fata, a trusted oncologist, preyed on patients to pad his pockets, prosecutors say. Just last week the FBI hauled evidence from his offices in upscale Michigan neighborhoods. The charges against Fata are disturbing: "deliberate misdiagnosis of patients as having cancer," giving "unnecessary chemotherapy," even to "end-of-life patients who will not benefit."


He's by no means alone in this fraud. I dated an oncologist once and was shocked at how nonchalantly he bragged at all the money he made with chemo treatments. These people are the real quacks!

Further, I know one of the scientists who helped develop Tamoxifin given to breast cancer patients for 5 years. He left Big Pharma and has been informing people that their own studies proved it caused cancer. But those results were never made public nor disclosed to patients until recently. As far as I'm concerned, you should never trust the results of a drug study if it's done by the company profiting from it.

BTW, my mother had ovarian cancer at only 39 and an aggressive form at that. She did NO chemo or radiation (was a smoker, too) and survived 34 years. I attribute that to not being poisoned and having her immune system weakened. In the end, just 3 years ago, she died of lung cancer sped up by an unscrupulous oncologist who wanted to make money off a terminally ill person. He's made so much money he can afford to have his own real estate company to buy and develop "infusion" clinics where they do the chemo treatment. I'll never forget the bile that came up into my throat paying those bills after her death.
 
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Veritas

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That is totally untrue. Survival rates are tracked up to 20 years after treatment with five and ten years considered significant.

Different cancers have different causes including certain viruses and environmental causes such as asbestos and smoking, but cancers may recur which is why they are tracked. It is also possible to get an unrelated cancer.

Source?
 
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keith99

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Unfortunately, the patient is a minor, and will likely both become 18 and have to submit to the treatment (or escape) before a proper appeal can be had. I disagree with the Court, because it asks the wrong question. It asks, "Is this person of sufficient age, maturity and experience to make an informed decision as to her own medical treatment?" The court concludes that the patient is not sufficiently mature while relying upon a collateral and irrelevant matter, the decision itself.

Did C investigate multiple therapies for her condition? yes
Did she ask questions about costs, side effects, prognoses, etc.? yes
Was C under some kind of delusion, duress, mental infirmity that prohibited her from thinking logically and rationally? No evidence (note that the issue is whether or not she had the ability to think logically and rationally, whether she does so is her choice.)

Other than the decision itself, and her resistance to the heavy handed actions of the trial court and DFACs, is there anyway in which she investigated, considered and chose between the options then available to her that differs in any material way from what a mature, experienced, rational person similarly situated would have done?

And if there is no material difference, then by what right does the State presume the power to invade a private citizen's body against her will? Relying on the legal fiction of the age of majority is both cowardly and substantially unjust.

Source?
 
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JohnLocke

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The Original Post which stated that C and her mother wanted to pursue alternative treatments that didn't involve putting the "poison" of chemotherapy in her body.
 
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DaisyDay

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I can see now that it was the folk on the ground and in the court who saw the various characters face to face.

Do we trust those medical and police folk then court judges to make wise decisions in all that happened?
Generally yes, when it comes to minors.
 
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keith99

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Manipulate W1 and W2. (see if you figure it out).:cool:

Think I got it. Is one more obvious or at least more common than the other?

I hope I've given you a way of confirming my answer and perhaps a small hint without actually giving it totally away.
 
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keith99

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The Original Post which stated that C and her mother wanted to pursue alternative treatments that didn't involve putting the "poison" of chemotherapy in her body.

Which does NOT show they actually have done any real investigation.

Artemis97 said they presented no such evidence in either of 2 court appearances and knowing her tendencies I can safely say she will be able to show real evidence to that effect.
 
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Veritas

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National Cancer Society is a fraud.

The American Cancer Society: The World's Wealthiest "Nonprofit" Institution

According to their 2013 financial statements, Cancer.org spent over $520,000,000 on salaries, benefits, and payroll taxes alone!

http://www.cancer.org/acs/groups/content/documents/document/acspc-043506.pdf

Is A One Million Dollar Nonprofit CEO Salary As Bad As It Sounds? - Forbes

How American Cancer Society Uses Your Money

I want to point out some of the more nauseating facts about this billion dollar organization that should make everyone’s blood boil – especially those whom have somehow been touched by this insidious disease called cancer. The American Cancer Society in a nutshell:

•For every $1 spent on direct service, $6.40 is spent on compensation and overhead
•Only 16% or less of all money raised is spent on direct services to cancer victims
•Based on 2008 financial documents, the CEO, Donald Thomas, earned through compensation and benefits, $1,054,507
•ACS’ Deputy Chief Executive Officer also earned $1,057,507 through compensation and benefits


Charity Navigator Rating - American Cancer Society

Cancer.org is anything but a "charity". Its major donors to the foundation come from Big Pharma, a conflict of interest. It's a mutually beneficial society where they both profit.

The last thing the industrial cancer complex wants is a cure. There's a reason 5 year "survival" rates are published and promoted. It's because after that the average survival rate begins to drop precipitously. It's all smoke and mirrors designed to increase funding of drug research and development. Given the failure of chemo, I think any person of reasonable cognitive development including teenagers should have the right to refuse "treatment".
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Which does NOT show they actually have done any real investigation.

Artemis97 said they presented no such evidence in either of 2 court appearances and knowing her tendencies I can safely say she will be able to show real evidence to that effect.

They never got the chance. CPS was called when the mom suggested getting a second opinion and then the teen ran away. Then CPS came and got her.
 
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keith99

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They never got the chance. CPS was called when the mom suggested getting a second opinion and then the teen ran away. Then CPS came and got her.

They had every chance. CPS was called after a number of missed appointments and the kid running away. During all of that time they could have sought a second opinion. They did not. As far as I know there is nothing stopping them now from getting a second opinion, they just cannot stop treatment while doing that, which is perfectly reasonable in the case of cancer.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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They had every chance. CPS was called after a number of missed appointments and the kid running away. During all of that time they could have sought a second opinion. They did not. As far as I know there is nothing stopping them now from getting a second opinion, they just cannot stop treatment while doing that, which is perfectly reasonable in the case of cancer.

I need to find the article I was reading, because I read a totally different story.
 
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SteveNZ

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I need to find the article I was reading, because I read a totally different story.
Hi,
I think that is a major thing for all of us.

What is the true series of events as shared by someone unbiased? :confused:

The folk on the ground had to make a decision and given the circumstances they just could not wait. I respect them for getting on and doing so.
 
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Maynard Keenan

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This thread reminds me of a quote by Isaac Asimov.

“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
 
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cow451

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Think I got it. Is one more obvious or at least more common than the other?

It depends on whether an individual is right or left-handed.:cool:
 
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Hetta

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This thread reminds me of a quote by Isaac Asimov.

“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
Isaac had it right.
 
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Hetta

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As to vitamins and other "natural stuff" being poison, excuse me, but drugs have killed way more folks than the natural way ever has. The FDA and AMA don't want people to know this, it is kept a secret, but, so many hospital deaths a year are caused by drugs, it is a disgrace.
If it's a secret, how do you know about it? I'm always curious to learn how these big secrets and conspiracies are generally known by the whole, entire public.

You're just wrong. I've worked in a hospital environment for a very long time. If people were just dying off, their families would be the first to talk to the press. These things simply can't be hushed up.

I have said this before and will say it again, anyone that fantasizes that doctors are just out to kill all their patients doesn't have a clue. It takes four years of undergraduate school, four years of graduate school, x years of residency (depending on the specialty), and a few more years of fellowship (again, depending on the specialty) before a person is let loose on the general public. Why on earth would anyone spend anything up to *15 years* and hundreds of thousands of dollars so that they can harm people? Wouldn't most people just go another more simple and cheap route? I have personal friends who are MDs, and I deal with residents and doctors every single day. I have never one that was not single-minded and passionate in the pursuit of HEALING.

I can only assume that those who fantasize about murderous doctors simply don't understand the first thing about the profession, and have never seen it from the inside, nor do they really understand the extreme difficulty of becoming an MD.

I'll take any day the x-ray machines and radiologists who diagnosed and treated my fractured elbow in December, and the provider who diagnosed and treated my sinus infection this week. Left to "the natural way", I would have an arm that simply didn't work, and would probably become useless over time, not to mention the risk of blood clot. Left the natural way, I would infect everyone else with my sinus infection, and left unchecked, would probably damage my sinuses permanently.

Yeah, I'll take medicine.
 
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