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Featured Do you think the teaching of eternal conscious torment has caused people to stumble?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, Apr 26, 2018.

  1. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you think the teaching of eternal conscious torment has caused some people who are repulsed by it to stumble into theological liberalism, postmodernism, or even atheism?
     
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  2. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    No.
     
  3. Alpha.Omega

    Alpha.Omega Active Member

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    The fact is that the Holy Bible teaches it
     
  4. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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  5. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    It might be more likely that teaching you are thrown into a literal lake of fire would cause theological liberalism, postmodernism, or even atheism?
     
  6. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I disagree!

    The Bible teaches Conditional Immortality, not eternal torment. The Word of God teaches that the unrighteous will suffer the destruction of their bodies and souls (Matthew 10:28), that they will perish (John 3:16), that the wages of their sins is death (Romans 6:23), that their destiny is destruction (Phillipians 3:19), and that they will be burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6).
     
  7. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    I think people will use the teaching of ECT as an excuse to do what they want.
    They say, "I just can't believe in a god that would do that" so they will take there itching ears and find a doctrine they like.
     
  8. David Neos

    David Neos Catechumen

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    Will this become a discussion about if Eternal Damnation is real?
     
  9. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    And ECT is a doctrine YOU like?
     
  10. HereIStand

    HereIStand Regular Member Supporter

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    No. I don't see much of a difference between annihilationism and being agnostic about the afterlife. Both end up denying any ultimate consequences for our sins.
     
  11. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Whether I like it or not is irrelevant. Scripture teaches it.
    Actually, I don't like it. I wish it were wrong. As I have told Universalist's before, I wish they were right. That everybody would be saved and nobody would go to hell.
    I wish there wasn't a hell.
    I wish those who died without Jesus Christ as Saviour would just fall asleep and not be tormented.
    But, it is not what Scripture teaches, so I won't believe it.
     
  12. royal priest

    royal priest debtor to grace

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    Why does Jesus warn of the worm that does not die and the fire that is not quenched?

    What is your take on the warning to avoid weeping and gnashing teeth?

    Also, what is the point of Jesus' story of Lazaruz the beggar and the rich man?
     
  13. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The type of annihilationism I believe in is also called Conditional Immortality or Evangelical Conditionalism. Annihilation is a very severe "ultimate consequence" when the alternative is eternal life in a perfect world with Christ.

    Here's a more detailed explanation:
    Does Annihilationism Make the Threat of Hell Meaningless?

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Royal priest, thanks for asking some good questions. You asked:

    You are referring to the following Scripture passage in arguing for eternal torment:

    47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
    48 where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
    (Mk. 9:47-48 NIV)


    Are you aware that Jesus was quoting from the last verse in Isaiah? Here it is:

    ESV Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

    Notice that the worms are not torturing conscious people, they are disposing of dead bodies. And this makes sense. All throughout history dead bodies have been disposed of by worms turning them to dust or by fire turning them to ashes. So this verse actually supports annihilationism!


    I believe both that there may be a limited period of conscious torment before the unrighteous perish and also that in the process of being judged and perishing there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The weeping and gnashing are real, but they don't last forever.


    It's not clear if the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is an true story or a parable using a fictional story.

    Even if it is a true story (or a fictional story which is accurate wrt hades) it is about what happens in the intermediate state before resurrection, not what happens at the final judgment. We know this because the Rich Man still has brothers alive on earth who could repent.

    Finally, the story does not say that the torment lasts forever.
     
  15. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree that whether we like something or not does not determine the truth. Scripture does. But Scripture does teach that ONLY those who believe in Christ will live forever and that others will perish.

    ESV John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
     
  16. Micah888

    Micah888 Well-Known Member

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    Do you think Christ would teach things which would cause people to stumble? If there is any stumbling it is because some will not obey the Gospel.

    Eternal conscious torment in Hell is a Bible doctrine, and the Lord Jesus Christ taught on Hell quite frequently, so that no one would need to go to Hell. That is the purpose of the Gospel.
     
  17. Micah888

    Micah888 Well-Known Member

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    In which case no evildoer needs to repent and be converted. He will simply be *cremated*, so why worry? "Let us do evil that cremation may come".
     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I find it hard to believe that Dr. Al Mohler who is the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary which is the oldest seminary in the Southern Baptist Convention teaches conditional immortality. I'm quite sure that is not the position of the convention. Here is the appropriate section of the Baptist Faith and Message which summarizes the beliefs and practices of Southern Baptist. In the 80s a professor Dale Moody was relieved from teaching and his contract not renewed for his teaching on perseverance of the believer which did not agree with the Baptist Faith and Message.
    X. Last Things
    God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.​
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Why I believe in ECT.
    According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
    Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
    During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about,
    •“Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced their belief.
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
    Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
    Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
    Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
    “Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
    (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
    G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
    “Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)

    http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2018/...elopment-and-usage-of-a-common-image-for-hell
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "The Doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment has Led Many to Stumble into Theological Liberalism"

    Arguably the same could be said of the doctrine of annihilationism. How does that harmonize with a God Who is proclaimed as being Love Omnipotent?


    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

     
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