Do you think that using inappropriate contentography is equal to cheating?

[RDKirk]

I tend to agree with that.

There's this perception people carry around that somehow people in the past were more chaste, were more careful with their sexual dalliances, that they waited, that they were more monogamous, etc...and that now society is just so more free with sex than they were before.

I don't know if I believe that. Do I think people were more likely to get married and remain married if they accidentally got knocked up having their premarital sex...yeah. But do I think there was any less premarital sex? Not really - and I think they were just as likely to walk away after they were done (like today) except in cases of unplanned pregnancy.

Oh, yeah, there was objectively and absolutely less premarital sex.

Not saying we teen boys didn't want it, but for sure we had less opportunity and less of it than boys do today. A lot less. A whole lot less.

And as already mentioned there was much less access to inappropriate contentography and in absolute terms, less inappropriate contentography available. A lot less. A whole lot less.

And kids were not sexualized then as they are today. Nobody would have mistaken a 14-year-old in 1965 with an 18- or 19- or 20-year old. Today, it's very easy to do so, and the culture encourages 14-year-olds to make it so. And even Christian mothers are complicit in dressing their 14-year-olds to look like older women.

 

[Dave-W]

Early church fathers (first three centuries) or middle church fathers?

Jerome and his contemporaries.

 

[DZoolander]

Oh, yeah, there was objectively and absolutely less premarital sex.

Not saying we teen boys didn't want it, but for sure we had less opportunity and less of it than boys do today. A lot less. A whole lot less.

And as already mentioned there was much less access to inappropriate contentography and in absolute terms, less inappropriate contentography available. A lot less. A whole lot less.

And kids were not sexualized then as they are today. Nobody would have mistaken a 14-year-old in 1965 with an 18- or 19- or 20-year old. Today, it's very easy to do so, and the culture encourages 14-year-olds to make it so. And even Christian mothers are complicit in dressing their 14-year-olds to look like older women.

What would you parents have said about the sexual mores of the 1960's compared to when they were growing up and earlier generations?

 

[Dave-W]

Oh, yeah, there was objectively and absolutely less premarital sex.

Back in the 16 and 1700s?

 

[RDKirk]

I don’t know. I remember back in college reading some study where they had taken a bunch of birth records from back in puritan times, and contrasted it to the marriage records for those families. And in a good percentage of them, the birth of the first child took place roughly 5-7 months after the marriage was performed. That means that even in Puritan times there was a fair amount of premarital sex going on.

You're talking about an area and time where marital pairings were pretty much known (if not formally arranged) much earlier than the ceremonies themselves.

Everyone knew everyone. The pool of possible mates was small enough and segregated by other factors such as economics that by age 12 or 13 each individual may have had fewer than ten total possibilities (particularly for women).

Very likely--almost certainly--the only male the young woman had had sex with was the man both of them knew she was soon going to marry. They essentially did make that marriage commitment with that sex act--or otherwise committing themselves to being one of the town harlots.

It was barely different even when I first got interested in girls. My immediate neighborhood was a bit more expansive because we were military kids who traveled a lot, but I saw the situation for the local kids.

 

[Dave-W]

What would you parents have said about the sexual mores of the 1960's compared to when they were growing up and earlier generations?

When the stories of nudity and sex at Woodstock came out (August '69) they were absolutely disgusted. (at least my step dad was - mom did not comment)

I remember reading a magazine article afterward describing it. The reporter (who was there) said he saw every sex act he had ever heard of being performed right out in front of everyone, and several acts he had never heard of before.

 

[RDKirk]

Back in the 16 and 1700s?

For teens in the 60s compared to today.

 

[DZoolander]

You're talking about an area and time where marital pairings were pretty much known (if not formally arranged) much earlier than the ceremonies themselves.

Everyone knew everyone. The pool of possible mates was small enough and segregated by other factors such as economics that by age 12 or 13 each individual may have had fewer than ten total possibilities (particularly for women).

Very likely--almost certainly--the only male the young woman had had sex with was the man both of them knew she was soon going to marry. They essentially did make that marriage commitment with that sex act--or otherwise committing themselves to being one of the town harlots.

It was barely different even when I first got interested in girls. My immediate neighborhood was a bit more expansive because we were military kids who traveled a lot, but I saw the situation for the local kids.

Well, then given the seeming high propensity of births within 5-8 months of the date of marriage - then I guess you're taking the position that "Well, it was premarital sex, but they were essentially betrothed anyhow. Pretty much all premarital encounters, whether or not they ended up in pregnancy prior to the marriage, ended up in marriage anyhow."

?

 

[RDKirk]

What would you parents have said about the sexual mores of the 1960's compared to when they were growing up and earlier generations?

When I was a teenager, in order to get a condom I had to take a bus trip to the state capital, where the bus station had a machine in the mens restroom. Locally in the state, condoms were kept locked in the pharmacy, available only to adults.

Birth control pills were slowly becoming increasingly available, but even more tightly restricted.

Legal abortion didn't come around until I was in college.

If a girl got pregnant, she simply disappeared. We never saw her again.

From the information I get from the women working with teenaged girls in my church today, fewer than half are still virgins by 17. That's sure a difference from when I was in high school.

 

[RDKirk]

Well, then given the seeming high propensity of births within 5-8 months of the date of marriage - then I guess you're taking the position that "Well, it was premarital sex, but they were essentially betrothed anyhow. Pretty much all premarital encounters, whether or not they ended up in pregnancy prior to the marriage, ended up in marriage anyhow."

?

Pretty much. And it was still much like that when I was a teenager. When a girl started having sex, it was pretty much with a boy she was convinced she'd marry.

 

[DZoolander]

Fair enough - but what did your parents think about the sexual mores of the 1960's compared to when they were growing up? lol

 

[Deidre32]

I wonder if a lot of that has to do with age.

Like I'm pushing 50. I don't see a lot of women I grew up with (who are mostly my female friends on FB) posting a lot of salacious stuff. And even if I did - my reaction would likely be "Who's that old lady wearing inappropriate stuff?" lol

Lol!!

It’s all ages, from 20’s to 40’s. I just think social media causes a lot of damage. My parents are in their 50’s and my mom’s friend’s husband had an online affair from someone he met on Facebook. And now he’s leaving my mom’s friend for the other woman. So pathetic.

 

[RDKirk]

Fair enough - but what did your parents think about the sexual mores of the 1960's compared to when they were growing up? lol

Well...my mother bought me illustrated sex manuals.

 

[DZoolander]

Pretty much. And it was still much like that when I was a teenager. When a girl started having sex, it was pretty much with a boy she was convinced she'd marry.

The reason I ask about your parents is to compare your experience with your folks and their attitudes to mine.

While I'm 48 - my dad was born in 1925 (the men in my family have kids relatively later in life...as a pattern). So - I've got a sister that was in HS back in the late 60's, early 70's. While I'm a Gen Xer - my parents were of the WWII generation - just like the boomers. So I got a chance to hear what my WWII dad thought about the 1960's kids...lol

He thought they were a bunch of craven hippies, way too sexually free, was fearful for my sister having grown up in that environment, etc. He would go on and on about their loose morals, etc.

And ya know - that to me is eerily familiar to how EVERY generation talks about subsequent ones. Your generation is the one my dad was talking about.

 

[RDKirk]

The reason I ask about your parents is to compare your experience with your folks and their attitudes to mine.

While I'm 48 - my dad was born in 1925 (the men in my family have kids relatively later in life...as a pattern). So - I've got a sister that was in HS back in the late 60's, early 70's. While I'm a Gen Xer - my parents were of the WWII generation - just like the boomers. So I got a chance to hear what my WWII dad thought about the 1960's kids...lol

He thought they were a bunch of craven hippies, way too sexually free, was fearful for my sister having grown up in that environment, etc. He would go on and on about their loose morals, etc.

And ya know - that to me is eerily familiar to how EVERY generation talks about subsequent ones. Your generation is the one my dad was talking about.

The pictures out of Woodstock did not convey ordinary life.

 

[Deidre32]

I can’t help but think though that “sexually free” people don’t end up with as many hang ups that are unhealthy about sex as some of their extreme religious counterparts. We aren’t to look at sex as a terrible thing but it’s to be used with boundaries.

 

[DZoolander]

I can’t help but think though that “sexually free” people don’t end up with as many hang ups that are unhealthy about sex as some of their extreme religious counterparts. We aren’t to look at sex as a terrible thing but it’s to be used with boundaries.

I posted about that a little while back.

When I went through my divorce back in the late 90's, I took an honest assessment of all of the hangups I had about it, the questions I had, things that had always bothered me, etc...and just gave myself license to figure all that stuff out.

To be honest - best thing I ever did for myself psychologically, I think.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I study social dynamics of England and middle upper class for fun... Premarital sex was not only hardly uncommon, it was the standard. In both England and the US in the 1800s, a couple would court and then announce an engagement or betrothal. After the engagement or betrothal was announced, it was assumed the couple was having sex. Especially and middle or upper middle class and the extreme upper class, they wouldn’t get married until *after* a confirmed pregnancy for the simple fact that it was incredibly hard to divorce and socially ruinous. Men and the parents of the future bride and groom wanted to guarantee she could get pregnant before being locked into a marriage as the only thing worse than a wife who only gives you girls is a wife who gives you none at all. And in the 1800s and 1900s, fidelity was not what it is now, for men and for women. The key difference was a man could sleep around and it was expected, and the wife could sleep around but had to be discrete. That was the dynamic for social structure until about Henry the 8th when men demanded loyalty (either by discrete infidelity or total fidelity) but it returned during the reign of the “VirginQueen.” King Henry’s view on this shifted quite dramatically in his lifetime, even.

In short, when people didn’t have cable, they found other ways to amuse themselves.

 

[Deidre32]

I posted about that a little while back.

When I went through my divorce back in the late 90's, I took an honest assessment of all of the hangups I had about it, the questions I had, things that had always bothered me, etc...and just gave myself license to figure all that stuff out.

To be honest - best thing I ever did for myself psychologically, I think.

I’m glad things worked out for you!

 

[Dave-W]

Well...my mother bought me illustrated sex manuals.