Do you think religion is being taken out of secular society.

stevevw

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I'm....not....really....concerned with how "secular society"
celebrates the holidays. Am I supposed to be?

The plan (the constitution) and it's amendments is to
not allow government to interfere with religious practices.

So I expect secular displays to become less influenced
by religion as well. Christmas and Easter will likely be
replaced by secular names one day.

A Catholic calendar has WAY more celebration days
than a secular one.
Yes that is probably the trend I am talking about that is becoming more noticeable in recent years. Most of the western cultures that were based on Christian values and are gradually moving away from this and becoming more secular. Its become more noticeable in the last 10 years I think where people are actually speaking out against religion. As mentioned the issues with extremist religion and I think also in some countries they have had national inquiries into child abuse in some religions has only made people more determined to get rid of religion but mostly the Christian based ones.

At the same time Islam is growing but this is in poorer countries where there is not as much pull from capitalism and the predictions are that this trend may grow. The only thing that may stem this is if those poor countries become more westernized through globalization. As well as the negative factors that are causing people to turn away from religion are the advancements of science and technology. This is creating a world where people believe that humans have the ability to do almost anything and this is all based on scientific thought which is the opposite of faith.
 
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stevevw

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Secular Humanist have religion. They worship the false god of Self. They will reject this claim, nonetheless, they follow religious practices.
And it is something they have to work on and cultivate because there is evidence that belief in a deity outside of self is a natural default position from when we are born. Our natural intuition is to see Gods creation in life and therefore know that there is something beyond what we see as being responsible for everything.

It actually takes a concerted effort to drum this out of people by secular thinking. People think its the other way around where children are taught to believe in fairy tales from a young age and should learn to grow up and get real. But it takes a continual effort to suppress the belief that life was created by some form of outside agent even as adults. That,s why I think secularism, atheism and the sciences go together so well. At the same time a person of faith can live with scientific reasoning because they will see that science actually reveals Gods handy work more.
 
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SkyWriting

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Yes that is probably the trend I am talking about that is becoming more noticeable in recent years. Most of the western cultures that were based on Christian values and are gradually moving away from this and becoming more secular. Its become more noticeable in the last 10 years I think where people are actually speaking out against religion. As mentioned the issues with extremist religion and I think also in some countries they have had national inquiries into child abuse in some religions has only made people more determined to get rid of religion but mostly the Christian based ones.

At the same time Islam is growing but this is in poorer countries where there is not as much pull from capitalism and the predictions are that this trend may grow. The only thing that may stem this is if those poor countries become more westernized through globalization. As well as the negative factors that are causing people to turn away from religion are the advancements of science and technology. This is creating a world where people believe that humans have the ability to do almost anything and this is all based on scientific thought which is the opposite of faith.

Which seems to be your commentary, that you can
change the governments instituted by God.

Psalm 66:7
He rules by His might forever; His eyes keep watch on the nations; Let not the rebellious exalt themselves

55 Bible verses about Government
 
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Everybodyknows

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Considering that we were built on Christian values it seems that we are forgetting our foundations.
How so? We just happened to be colonised by a nation that was majority Christian. I find that culturally Australians have always been quite anti-authoritarian and irreligious.

the government is saying we can have any one religion being dominant. They are being too politically correct and saying it may offend other religions if we promote our own christian beliefs.
When did the government say this?

So now we can't have traditional celebrations like Christmas or Easter and now it is not being acknowledged anymore. In fact the commercial aspect of these occasions is becoming bigger and kids are more likely to believe in Santa Clause.
The way these things are celebrated has changed, particularly Christmas. What you are witnessing is a cultural phenomenon rather than a conspiracy against Christmas by the powers that be. Christmas has grown out of its traditional European Christian roots and exceeded Christianity in its cultural context. It is a celebration widely embraced across our culture by the religious and non-religious alike.
 
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ken777

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The way these things are celebrated has changed, particularly Christmas. What you are witnessing is a cultural phenomenon rather than a conspiracy against Christmas by the powers that be. Christmas has grown out of its traditional European Christian roots and exceeded Christianity in its cultural context. It is a celebration widely embraced across our culture by the religious and non-religious alike.
While that is true, schools should still teach our children the historical & cultural origins of Christmas & Easter. Parents can teach the religious significance at home.

If students study a foreign country, they usually include a component on the religion of that country (eg Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism). Where is the teaching of a basic understanding of Christianity in our schools?
 
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Everybodyknows

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While that is true, schools should still teach our children the historical & cultural origins of Christmas & Easter. Parents can teach the religious significance at home.

If students study a foreign country, they usually include a component on the religion of that country (eg Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism). Where is the teaching of a basic understanding of Christianity in our schools?
When I grew up I attended a public school and once a week we had scripture class taught by a representative of the local churches. My daughter now attends a public school and it is still the same.
Of course parents have the right to opt-out if they wish but only a surprisingly small percentage do.
 
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JoeP222w

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And it is something they have to work on and cultivate because there is evidence that belief in a deity outside of self is a natural default position from when we are born. Our natural intuition is to see Gods creation in life and therefore know that there is something beyond what we see as being responsible for everything.

It actually takes a concerted effort to drum this out of people by secular thinking. People think its the other way around where children are taught to believe in fairy tales from a young age and should learn to grow up and get real. But it takes a continual effort to suppress the belief that life was created by some form of outside agent even as adults. That,s why I think secularism, atheism and the sciences go together so well. At the same time a person of faith can live with scientific reasoning because they will see that science actually reveals Gods handy work more.

Indeed. Atheists only further affirm the truth of God as written in Romans 1.
 
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stevevw

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How so? We just happened to be colonised by a nation that was majority Christian. I find that culturally Australians have always been quite anti-authoritarian and irreligious.
Yeah, I think that stems back to our origins with the first settlement and the convicts and free settlers pioneering spirit. If the convict in us doesn't challenge the authorities, it’s the free spirit in us that is looking for a challenge. Though this is fast changing with all the other settlers that have followed since who come from different cultures. I am not sure about always being irreligious though. At the time of Federation in 1901, 96 per cent of Australians described themselves as Christians. Our legal system is based on common law and our political system is based on the Westminister system for example which are based on Christian values.

But you only have to go back a few decades to see how we have changed. Fewer people go to church, more divorce, pregnancies out of wedlock, more sex in the media, violence especially with the young ect. Whereas people use to have the respect and Christian values where they would help their neighbour or respect other people’s stuff, now there are many who just don't draw a line or care. I know people say we have always had problems and that is the nature of things. But it’s not just the amount of issues but the way people are treating each other that has changed. Some say it's a me generation and that is the opposite of what Christ taught.

When did the government say this?
It's the actions, not the words. It's happening in small ways and its gradually having an effect. A minister will think it is best to call Christmas happy holidays at some event, another says we should not display the nativity scene as it may offend others. A senator proposes that the Lord’s prayer should not be read in Parliament any more. Changes to traditional marriage. These are all small changes but that gradually add up and this eventually will take Christianity out of public life altogether. This is probably an inevitable thing as the trends show that we are becoming less religious. This generation has the lowest level of religious brief and this trend will continue.

Letting go of the Lord's Prayer in Parliament
Sydney is fighting to keep Christmas Christian: Clover Moore has more than doubled the budget for ‘secular’ celebrations
Millennials leaving church in droves, study says - CNN.com
Generation Y turning away from religion - National - theage.com.au

The way these things are celebrated has changed, particularly Christmas. What you are witnessing is a cultural phenomenon rather than a conspiracy against Christmas by the powers that be. Christmas has grown out of its traditional European Christian roots and exceeded Christianity in its cultural context. It is a celebration widely embraced across our culture by the religious and non-religious alike.
I am not saying there is a conspiracy. As I said its probably the inevitable way things have and will go. It's not just Christmas, that's just one obvious occasion that can be related to Christain belief. Its many small things as well that are not being done or practised anymore.
 
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Shempster

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We have the privilege of knowing much of history and there is plenty of evidence that the most religious of civilizations were also the most violent. And by contrast, the more secular, the more peaceful they are.

I think the main problem with religion is when we insist that others think like we think. But when you have religions that include hundreds and even thousands of sub-groups, it creates a sense of cynicism in others.

I love the idea of free religion in society. The problem is that each one teaches us to get others to join their particular brand of it. Most folks don't know it, but Muslims and Christians lived side by side in Israel for a period of time prior to being re-established as Israel. They kept their religion to themselves and treated others as God's creation.
Why can't we do that?
Why must we argue out loud with others and try and prove themselves right and others wrong?
I realize we are told to share the gospel, but why must we use words of disdain?
Let's say you are a far-right conservative. Let's say a far-right liberal wants to argue with you about why they are right and you are wrong. Ask yourself; is there ANY words they could use to change your mind?
Would it be sensical that any conservative will turn liberal because they "prove" that your favorite leader is a sheister? For the most part-it's not gonna happen.

What WILL happen is that groups hunker down and dig in. They will convince you that the other groups are evil and must be either converted or killed. I actually heard Phil Robertson (the duck hunter fella) say that about Muslims. Convert or kill.
This leads to civil strife, uprisings and often civil war. History is filled with that.

Can't we grow up, shut up and start showing faith by our kind actions and openness to others despite religious differences?
If not, then Im on the religion-ban bandwagon.
 
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Everybodyknows

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But you only have to go back a few decades to see how we have changed. Fewer people go to church, more divorce, pregnancies out of wedlock, more sex in the media, violence especially with the young ect. Whereas people use to have the respect and Christian values where they would help their neighbour or respect other people’s stuff, now there are many who just don't draw a line or care. I know people say we have always had problems and that is the nature of things. But it’s not just the amount of issues but the way people are treating each other that has changed. Some say it's a me generation and that is the opposite of what Christ taught.
One must be careful not to commit the golden age fallacy, where we idealise times past and emphasise their positive elements while downplaying the negatives. While no one can deny the world has changed (it's always changing) it hasn't necessarily changed for the worse. If we go back a few decades I can think of a number of things where we have made much progress for the better.

As for more violence, I haven't come across any information to suggest this (maybe you have something) or anything that correlates religious decline with increasing violence.

Culture is changing, demographics are changing, attitudes are changing, and this has been going on for all human history. Even Christianity has evolved over it's 2000 year history in response to a world of continual change.

Sure, Christianity is on the decline in the West, but this is a challenge that Christianity has to face by shifting its focus to issues that are relevant this generation. It's not enough to sit around lamenting the good old days when we were the majority and held greater social influence.

Look at the religious right in USA, they are trying very hard to regain the social power Christianity once held through political means. The more extreme among them want nothing short of a theocracy. Look at the issues Christianity is most vocal on, homosexuality, abortion, creationism (ok admittedly a lot of it is coming from vocal minorities, but it seems to drown out all the other more reasonable voices in the non-Christians perception).

And we wonder why millennials are turning away. I have never once heard a sermon preached on 'hey maybe we should look after our natural environment a bit more responsibly for the next generation'. I hear little talk on issues of social justice, or against corporate greed. Where was the Christian outcry at the massively unethical banking practices that brought on the GFC in 2008 (taxpayer bailout, everything's ok, move along people).

I have a lot of non-Christian friends and these are the sorts of issues they worry about. They have no interest in a Christianity that is all about power and control, and yes, that is how they perceive it.

There are so many opportunities for Christianity to engage with this generation. The church needs to have a long hard look at itself, stop looking at what it used to be and look at what it could be in the future.
 
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stevevw

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We have the privilege of knowing much of history and there is plenty of evidence that the most religious of civilizations were also the most violent. And by contrast, the more secular, the more peaceful they are.
Yes, religions of all types have caused a lot of problems though perhaps this is the human's interjection that causes most of the problem. I am not sure religion or belief itself is the problem. Politics and sport to name a couple of areas other than religion, where humans we end up in disputes about something.

If you go back to first few centuries after Christ at first the Christian movement was underground. Gradually they stood up and many were persecuted so it was the other way around where society was denying freedom of religion at least where Christianity was concerned. Christ had said go out and spread the word of salvation. Eventually, Christianity became the dominant belief of the very empire that tried to stop it. It seems at that time people were still empowered by the word of God and the events of Christ. Still, it wasn't a theocracy for a long time until emperor Constantine made it a legal right by decree. After that humans got more involved and that's when it started to go wrong.

I think the main problem with religion is when we insist that others think like we think. But when you have religions that include hundreds and even thousands of sub-groups, it creates a sense of cynicism in others.
yes maybe this is more to do with that human need to belong to something and therefore like sport, create different clubs. People think they can come up with a better version of the original. I think most of the different sub-groups in Christian belief have had a founder who the followers revere nearly as much as God. Even Islam is based on the old testament God and was started by an individual who is highly revered.

I love the idea of free religion in society. The problem is that each one teaches us to get others to join their particular brand of it. Most folks don't know it, but Muslims and Christians lived side by side in Israel for a period of time prior to being re-established as Israel. They kept their religion to themselves and treated others as God's creation.
Why can't we do that?
Why must we argue out loud with others and try and prove themselves right and others wrong?
Do you think something has changed to cause more conflict? Maybe a new enlightenment where people dispute things more because of acquired knowledge. Or maybe that freedom has gone too far with people's rights to promote their view/beliefs and it's causing the conflicts itself. It undermines anything that maybe the best because someone can always say I disagree even if they are wrong. It also always corruption where those with the power and money can promote their agendas by buying the truth with a lie.

I realize we are told to share the gospel, but why must we use words of disdain? Let's say you are a far-right conservative. Let's say a far-right liberal wants to argue with you about why they are right and you are wrong. Ask yourself; is there ANY words they could use to change your mind? Would it be sensical that any conservative will turn liberal because they "prove" that your favourite leader is a sheister? For the most part-it's not gonna happen.

What WILL happen is that groups hunker down and dig in. They will convince you that the other groups are evil and must be either converted or killed. I actually heard Phil Robertson (the duck hunter fella) say that about Muslims. Convert or kill.
This leads to civil strife, uprisings and often civil war. History is filled with that.

Can't we grow up, shut up and start showing faith by our kind actions and openness to others despite religious differences?
If not, then I'm on the religion-ban bandwagon.
Good points. I think you are right in that Christ and the early disciples didn't go around forcing their views. Christ even said give to Ceasar what is Ceasars and to God what is Gods which shows he was aware that we live in two worlds that have different ideals. You are right that the way spread the message is living the words and in that way you will know what are the right things to say at the right times.
 
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stevevw

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One must be careful not to commit the golden age fallacy, where we idealise times past and emphasise their positive elements while downplaying the negatives. While no one can deny the world has changed (it's always changing) it hasn't necessarily changed for the worse. If we go back a few decades I can think of a number of things where we have made much progress for the better.
Perhaps so, maybe things have remained much the same but I would think if we were to remove God from out lives and if the bible is true in that without Jesus we live in sin that if the world rejects God then sin will increase. How that will be measured is probably beyond most of us to judge. That's why I think its hard to compare like for like in different periods. Sometimes one aspect will improve while another gets worse.

As for more violence, I haven't come across any information to suggest this (maybe you have something) or anything that correlates religious decline with increasing violence.
As I mentioned it's not necessarily the amount that is in question but the type. In the past, I would have though it rare for people to attack parents, teachers, and the police as there was a level of respect for them. Today there is a lot who don't seem to care. I think domestic violence has increased as well. Though you could say it was more hidden I think that doesn't explain the increases we are seeing. It would have been too hard to hide the levels we see today. Certainly, in Australia DV is occurring a lot.

Other things like the violence on the streets with our pubs and nightclub areas have got to a point where people are being killed on a regular basis through drunken or drug infused violence. It has got to a point where we are now imposing lock downs curfews at 1am to move the people off the streets. Crack has also increased and this has also increased drug-related attacks as crack causes psychosis. The new drugs around send people crazy compared to the organic pot of years ago.
You could go to the pub and even walk down a dark street and not have to worry. Now people just don't do that as the risks are higher of being attacked. These things would not have happened as much years ago.

So in that sense at least for in Australia I don't need comparisons to the past as I know even in my lifetime but also in looking back further in history there was not that level of violence as in severity rather than quantity in these areas. Though I think it has also increased in quantity as well. But here are a couple of Stats for Australia.

Domestic violence cases on the rise in New South Wales, data shows

"Normally with domestic violence you would worry about a small increase because it would be possibly increased willingness to report and you still can't rule that out, but a 30 per cent increase is quite a substantial change."
NSW domestic violence data shows rise in cases

Drug-related offending continues to increase
4519.0 - Recorded Crime - Offenders, 2014-15

Alcohol-fuelled violence is on the rise despite falling consumption
Alcohol-fuelled violence is on the rise despite falling consumption | NDARC - National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre

Culture is changing, demographics are changing, attitudes are changing, and this has been going on for all human history. Even Christianity has evolved over it's 2000 year history in response to a world of continual change.

Sure, Christianity is on the decline in the West, but this is a challenge that Christianity has to face by shifting its focus to issues that are relevant this generation. It's not enough to sit around lamenting the good old days when we were the majority and held greater social influence.
Yes, I agree, action is required more than ever at least just to help the needy out there. I don't like to base things on compared stats and it is not always the best way to measure things as when stat changes then people can say there no problem anymore. It's more of an overall view of things I believe and as the world population grows we will face new and different issues. One that has been recent is that more people are committing suicide and are depressed despite the world having more to offer. So its, not a simple fix and can't be measured on a certain set of stats. I work on the front line of community service so I see it every day. Maybe that's why I'm so focused on stats.

Look at the religious right in USA, they are trying very hard to regain the social power Christianity once held through political means. The more extreme among them want nothing short of a theocracy. Look at the issues Christianity is most vocal on, homosexuality, abortion, creationism (ok admittedly a lot of it is coming from vocal minorities, but it seems to drown out all the other more reasonable voices in the non-Christians perception).
yes it makes you wonder what their motivation is. If they are that concerned why don't they go out on the street and meet these people on their level and get to know their situation. Help them where they are at and not from some ivory tower.

And we wonder why millennials are turning away. I have never once heard a sermon preached on 'hey maybe we should look after our natural environment a bit more responsibly for the next generation'. I hear little talk on issues of social justice, or against corporate greed. Where was the Christian outcry at the massively unethical banking practices that brought on the GFC in 2008 (taxpayer bailout, everything's ok, move along people).
That's true, you have to be Christian in all matters and show it by action. That is the problem the people who are supposed to set the example of Christ are giving Him a bad name. Maybe that will come where some will get back to what it is all supposed to mean. There are many out there now who are doing Gods work now quietly in the background and there the ones that make a difference. You can see it and they don't have to stand on some soap box and let everyone know.

I have a lot of non-Christian friends and these are the sorts of issues they worry about. They have no interest in a Christianity that is all about power and control, and yes, that is how they perceive it.
That is what I mentioned earlier about how the actions of religion have given it a bad name and people are turned off by it. The stories of child abuse in some of the churches have done a lot of damage. The amount of money some religions accumulate could feed a poor nation. It is all justified and mixed in with secularism and it does not represent what Christ would have done.

There are so many opportunities for Christianity to engage with this generation. The church needs to have a long hard look at itself, stop looking at what it used to be and look at what it could be in the future.
Yes I agree I like your signature picture by the way. One of my favourite music groups when growing up and still are.
 
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stevevw

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The Australian Government will be holding a plebiscite on same-sex marriage in February. This is bringing up some fierce debate on the topic. One of the issues mentioned is that Christian churches will eventually be forced to support same-sex marriage because once it is passed the churches will be targeted as being discriminatory against gays and therefore made to accept same-sex marriage. Will this be the case or is this some making more of an issue about it that there really is?
Same-sex marriage and religious freedom - Australian Marriage
A vote on same sex marriage is expected to be held in February, 2017

It doesn't have to be about the same-sex marriage issue. It could be about any issue that forces the Christian church, in particular, to conform to secularity. Maybe this is the way it has to be because society has to represent all views. The concern is that to allow some freedoms others may be compromised so it will come down what is determined to be the most important. But who determines what is important.
 
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stevevw

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I just wanted to update this thread with some recent events that have taken place relating to religious freedoms. Recently a high profile rugby player Israel Falou was sacked from his multi million dollar contract because he referenced a bible verse 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:

“Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”.

Falou used a meme to quote the bible verse as follows but most media outlets only included the main part of the post with the warning and left out the details which gave further detail.

Untitled-1.jpg


This has created a big debated among people about religious freedom which has deteriorated into abuse and ridicule at times mostly by those who oppose what Falou did. People associated with Falou including his wife who is a high profile basket ball player have also been targeted by a couple of big corporations including a big bank and she has been castigated by other sports personalities. It seems the public is split on this but from my point of view I think those who oppose Falou are acting in the very same way that they are accusing him of doing which is having a go at homosexuals.

As far as I can see Falou had every right under the freedom of religion to express his religious beliefs and that's has been a freedom for a long time. As he said he posting the quote out of love and he was not aiming to target any particular group but to send a message about the need for repentance and salvation through Jesus. Some say that he has breached his contract as it was suppose to have a clause that mentions Rugby Australia (RA) has an inclusive policy and/or he has brought the game into disrepute. RA was suppose to have warned him after another incident around 6 months earlier. But Falou claims they did not warn him and the director of RA only had a chat with him about proper use of social media and there is no clause in his contract. I think RA is taking the bringing the game into disrepute angle but it looks like it is one persons word against the other.

Another factor is that RA sponsor is Qantas who is a big advocate of gay rights. They have been putting pressure on RA to do something or they will pull their sponsorship money. Evidently the boss of RA was already on the phone less than 24 hours after the incident happened guaranteeing that Falou would be sacked even before any meeting or hearing had been held to determine what exactly happened. Falou setup a go fund me page to raise money for his legal fees which raised over 700k in a matter of 48 hours. He was criticized for this as the site is really for people with illnesses like cancer to raise money for they treatment and people were saying he should pay for his own legal fees as he is not short of money. He was offered to setup another campaign through a Christian groups and raised the required funds in a matter of no time and in fact people felt that their rights to give money were being denied so this motivated them even more to donate.

People are saying this is a test case for the right to express religious beliefs and so many feel that they are a part of this action. This situation has been brewing for some time because there have been similar situations happening where people are being denied their religious freedom and being attacked for holding such beliefs. As mentioned by this thread this is a battle between secular society and those who have religious belief but especially Christians as this is the main religion in Australia. These high profile cases are causing people to generally attack Christians for their beliefs and some are even saying the bible should be banned altogether.

Falou is willing to take the matter to the high court as he believes his rights have been denied. Big business has a lot of power and they are exerting their views more on others and influencing policy. Rumors are that even Qantas staff are in fear of speaking their views. One commentator mentioned that this is the first time in a long time where religion is being debated in the public forum but I am not sure that is a going to be a good thing for Christians. As secular society calls the shots as far as policy I think it does not look good for Christians to express their views in public for much longer.

Regardless of whether Falou was a high profile player and as people have said should take responsibility for what he says in public as people look up to him the point is these people are coming from their personal views on the situation. They see the bible verse as offensive and targeting gays. But to people like Falou they see that it is their duty out of love to inform people to repent to be saved. It is a bit like a doctor telling an obese person they need to lose weight otherwise they will have severe health problems and may die. So there is a divide in opinion but that is what religious freedom is about being able to have different views and belief and they are all included. If we allow big business and employers to start dictating what can and cannot be said that this will end up like a dictatorship. It may be religion now but could end up censoring many people views in a number areas.

I can see that religion and Christians rights will be gradually reduced and like some have said the bible will be taken out of secular society and pushed more to the fringes of society. Christians will be persecuted more and more for holding their beliefs which is something that is mentioned in the bible as well.
 
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RDKirk

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I just wanted to update this thread with some recent events that have taken place relating to religious freedoms. Recently a high profile rugby player Israel Falou was sacked from his multi million dollar contract because he referenced a bible verse 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:

There are already two active threads about that situation.
 
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RDKirk

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I have been pondering this question for a little while now and was wondering what others thought. Lately I have noticed that more people, organizations and governments are talking about the irrelevance of religion or religious belief. I am mainly talking about Christianity as in my country Australia we seem to be moving away from it pretty fast. Considering that we were built on Christian values it seems that we are forgetting our foundations.

I thought Australia was established as a penal colony.

I think this has been spurred on from the troubles we have had with some of the extremist groups like ISIS which is giving all religion a bad name.

I don't know precisely about Australia, but in the US it's a factor of the Christians in charge behaving badly and claiming their bad behavior was in the name of Jesus.

So now we can't have traditional celebrations like Christmas or Easter and now it is not being acknowledged anymore. In fact the commercial aspect of these occasions is becoming bigger and kids are more likely to believe in Santa Clause.

I'd bet big bucks that Australian Christians are perfectly free to celebrate Christmas and Easter exactly as 1st century Christians did...why would you want to do it any differently from them?
 
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RDKirk

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First of all, the concept of the separation of church and state, contrary to what people like yourself think, was NEVER included in the Constitution, but, rather, it derived from a misquoted bit of text with absolutely NO legal binding whatsoever, specifically, a letter that one Thomas Jefferson had made to the Danbury Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut.

Nope. The concept of separation of church and state was brought from Europe at the very beginning of the colonization of America--primarily from England--by Christians. Several groups, including the Pilgrims, brought that concept with them.

In England, they were known as "Separatists." The English even fought a civil war over the separation of church and state in the mid 1600s (it was a pretty serious war--the King of England was assassinated, heads rolled). You'll note that was shortly after the Mayflower voyage--the situation in England had been heating up for decades, so some of the Separatists had already gotten to America. Remember, too, that the Thirty Years War between the Holy Roman Empire and the concept of secular nationality only just winding down on the Continent.

So understand that the entire Pilgrim concept was based on separation of church and state, or at least opposition to any single church established as the church of the kingdom.

One of those Separatists was Roger Williams, an incredibly remarkable man. Roger Williams was a pastor and evangelist who organized the first Baptist congregation in America (Baptists were Separatists).

Besides that, he also learned the languages of the nearby Native tribes and evangelized them. However, he angered other whites because he told the Natives, "Jesus is real, but those people want to steal your land." Williams became a confidant and consultant who was much respected by the Natives.

Williams was also the first American Abolitionist against the slavery that was beginning to be established at that time. Baptists were originally so opposed to slavery that wealthy Baptists didn't even hire domestic servants.

Williams founded the colony of Rhode Island in the late 1630s specifically as a land of total religious freedom. In his writings, Williams explicitly included freedom for "the atheist and the Musselman" (Muslim).

His reasoning is laid out in his treatise "The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution for Cause of Conscience." Because of what Williams saw as both the history and the then-current reality of persecution and war by Christians upon Christians, he was convinced that Christ never intended to wield the sword of earthly kings.

He also pointed out that when the earthly king established the church, it became socially advantageous (if not required) to join the church. When church membership is a social advantage or requirement, people join for the social advantage (or to escape punishment), not by faith. Moreover, because "the way is narrow and few find it," then the majority of those in the pews and in church leadership will actually be those who have joined only for its social advantage, so the church is weakened and turned to evil.

On top of that, Williams realized that in a fallen world, earthly governments unavoidably committed evil in order to maintain their wealth and power. Tying the church to that government soiled the church by those evil acts of worldly governments. The church became nothing more than the chaplain on a cruise ship, with no control over directing the ship, but getting called to pray when the sea got rough.

So Williams wrote in "The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution for Cause of Conscience" that there must be a certain "hedge of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world." There were certain areas where the state must have civil control in order to maintain order, but the church should not allow the state any role in directing issues of conscience.

Williams' state of Rhode Island was so committed to the concept of separation of church and state that the state blocked ratification of the Constitution until the First Amendment (guaranteeing freedom of religion) was written and ratified first.

And the concept of separation of church and state still exists clearly worded in the latest official Baptist "Faith and Message" document.

In 1801, the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut ent a letter, dated October 7, 1801, to the newly elected President Jefferson with concern over the lack in their state constitution of explicit protection of religious liberty, and against a government establishment of religion. The Baptists wanted that protection. Jefferson cribbed the words of Roger Williams, their own denominational founder, when he wrote of a "wall of separation between Church and State."

So, no, you're wrong that the concept of separation of church and state in America originated with Jefferson's letter.
 
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RDKirk

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Yes that is probably the trend I am talking about that is becoming more noticeable in recent years. Most of the western cultures that were based on Christian values and are gradually moving away from this and becoming more secular. Its become more noticeable in the last 10 years I think where people are actually speaking out against religion. As mentioned the issues with extremist religion and I think also in some countries they have had national inquiries into child abuse in some religions has only made people more determined to get rid of religion but mostly the Christian based ones.

When Christians were able to rest easy in the particular evil of slavery as it was practiced in America and claim it was God-ordained, they had already moved far from Christ.
 
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And we wonder why millennials are turning away. I have never once heard a sermon preached on 'hey maybe we should look after our natural environment a bit more responsibly for the next generation'. I hear little talk on issues of social justice, or against corporate greed. Where was the Christian outcry at the massively unethical banking practices that brought on the GFC in 2008 (taxpayer bailout, everything's ok, move along people).

Check out Andy Stanley. One of his important stances is that he realizes that we live today in a "post-Christian" world. It's not like Paul going out into a setting where nobody had heard of Christ. In our setting, everyone we speak to already has an idea of what Christianity is...and it's negative. We have to operate from that realization that we are in a negative position primary because to people that Christians in charge have treated badly in the past.

But be warned--he's considered a renegade by more conservative Evangelicals.
 
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