Do you think Annihilationism is better than the eternal hell concept?

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I think Annihilationism is better than the eternally-burning hell concept because to live in a place for all eternity separated from Almighty God is just......too cruel of a concept to talk about. Many people out there say Hell is justice, but to me and many others.......it's just plain cruel. It's for this reason that I wish God never created me into a Universe like this. He made a big mistake in putting me here. He should've just left me there in nothingness. He should've just left me alone! And yeah, maybe He's not out to get me, but why? That way, I won't ever have to deal with Hell.

Do you all agree that Annihilation is better than damnation, since we are all souls who never asked to exist in the first place?
 

jlmagee

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I think Annihilationism is better than the eternally-burning hell concept because to live in a place for all eternity separated from Almighty God is just......too cruel of a concept to talk about. Many people out there say Hell is justice, but to me and many others.......it's just plain cruel. It's for this reason that I wish God never created me into a Universe like this. He made a big mistake in putting me here. He should've just left me there in nothingness. He should've just left me alone! And yeah, maybe He's not out to get me, but why? That way, I won't ever have to deal with Hell.

Do you all agree that Annihilation is better than damnation, since we are all souls who never asked to exist in the first place?

Hell vs. annihilationism is a legitimate issue to debate. Which is better is just a conceptual framework for a discussion.

The bigger concern I see is that someone who understands that eternal judgement is a reality and, at least by the icon, states a Christian belief, would choose to be concerned about dealing with hell.

Yes, God is indeed out to get each and every one of us. So much in that while we were yet sinners Jesus died for us (Rom. 5). He did this so that death would lose its sting; we are assured resurrection into eternity with Him (1 Cor. 15). Jesus said that He came to seek that which was lost (Luke 19).

That is the reality we have in Jesus Christ. Which is better? Our thoughts on which is better does not change the truth. Personally, I would rather universalism as true, however, that is not the issue.
 
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elopez

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I think Annihilationism is better than the eternally-burning hell concept because to live in a place for all eternity separated from Almighty God is just......too cruel of a concept to talk about.
If by "better" you mean more desirable or greater in excellence than yes, of course non existence is better than punishment without end. However, it may not be about what is 'better' than, but what is more realistic. This is something I tried to bring up in your other thread but I don't really think you caught onto it. The soul cannot cease to exist. It is, by nature, everlasting. For God to make an everlasting soul cease to exist would therefore be illogical, and as such not accomplished.

Many people out there say Hell is justice, but to me and many others.......it's just plain cruel. It's for this reason that I wish God never created me into a Universe like this. He made a big mistake in putting me here. He should've just left me there in nothingness. He should've just left me alone! And yeah, maybe He's not out to get me, but why? That way, I won't ever have to deal with Hell.
Hell is justice. It is justice when a tragedy such as a today's allows for the gunman to take the easy way out. I believe Hell is reserved for such people as him where justice is not served here on earth. That said I don't personally see any punishment, especially one without end, as too cruel for such a despicable human being.

Do you all agree that Annihilation is better than damnation, since we are all souls who never asked to exist in the first place?
Yes, but again it is not more realistic than an eternal Hell. That said even from a Biblical perspective.
 
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Yes, but what you don't understand is Annihilation is not only much more preferable to the eternal Hell concept, but it is also a much less darker and less tragic outcome for unredeemed souls. Not only will the wicked be eternally put out of their misery, but the entire universe which God has made will be as it was and should've been before: cleansed of all impurities and unrighteousness. Every corner and trace of the universe will be forever rid of evil and we will not only live in peace and harmony with God and our loved ones, but we will also have no memory of the evil that was once on Earth. No recollection of the evil that once was and it no longer exists within the cosmos. God won't have to worry about sin getting into His kingdom ever again and the condemned souls will be no more. So yes, it may not be realistic, but it is a much better outcome, rather than just live in a universe where our unsaved loved ones just go to Hell to be eternally separated from Almighty God and then having to go to the Lord for comfort or consolation, only to have to deal with that harsh fact. The thing is God can do anything--He can destroy and annihilate souls forever if He wanted to and He can cleanse this universe of all evil if He wanted to. If God hates sin so much and loves us so much, then He would destroy us if and if we didn't want to be reconciled to Him for whatever reason. The way people talk on the internet.......they make it sound like God is helpless in doing anything for damned souls. But let's not forget something--God is omnipotent. He can do anything--which means there isn't a single thing He can't do, with the exception of acting contrary to His character: good. And not because He lacks the capability of doing so; it's loosely saying He chooses not to, and I'm glad He doesn't. For if God was literally unable to do wrong, the extent of free will bestowed upon us would not be and it would be limited to just doing good. There would be no sin in the world and everyone would be like God: sinless, holy and perfect. You see, God is utter perfection and in order to maintain that uncompromised perfection, He must stay true to Himself and to us at all times.

I am not saying God should just force people to stop doing evil, as that would violate the freedom of wanting to do their own thing and fulfilling that wish. I'm only saying.....if God really really loves us, He should just put those damned souls out of their misery, as I am sure that is what they would want more than anything. So God really has no excuse as to why He hasn't done so already since He is fully capable of doing so, and with ease too! And since Hell is eternal separation from God, why does He care whether or not they're suffering? After all, He wanted evil separated from Him. And what does it matter if they live a life of sin and don't want to live forever? After all, God respects our free will decisions so what is wrong with just fulfilling one's wish of cursing the day they were born? Wouldn't God prefer a perfect and cleansed universe? And wouldn't He rather destroy these souls than having them hate Him forever in Hell? Does He really believe that suffering in Hell forever is preferable to annihilation?

I mean, it's clear that if one were to ask God to fulfill one's greatest desire of cursing the day they were born He would never answer that prayer because it's not what's best for them, but neither is Hell. Hell is definitely what is not best for us, but does that stop people from going by their own choice? Also, Hell is separation from God, which is destruction from the soul's original purpose: to eternally fellowship with God. Likewise, the human soul was made to last forever, so annihilation would be destruction from that original purpose. If He can allow Hell to be what it is, then by sovereign will He can allow someone back into nonexistence if they so desired. If they don't want to live forever and be reconciled to God but at the same time do not want to be separated from Him more than anything in Hell forever, then why force them to live on in the afterlife? If they didn't want to live on after they died while they were alive on Earth, why would they want to when they died? Annihilation may not be what's in our best interest but neither is Hell, but yet and still God allows people to go there by their own choice. So why not annihilation? Would He rather let us suffer in Hell forever harboring bitter hatred for Him, for their fellow man and for themselves because of the horror they will forever endure?
 
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Rubiks

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Annihilationism is much more appealing but it fails for this reason:

1. According to annihilationism, the soul ceases to exist after death
2. Jesus took the punishment for us
3. Jesus cannot stop existing
4. Therefore, annihilationism is false
 
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jehoiakim

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Annihilationism is much more appealing but it fails for this reason:

1. According to annihilationism, the soul ceases to exist after death
2. Jesus took the punishment for us
3. Jesus cannot stop existing
4. Therefore, annihilationism is false


Not necessarily true, Sheol "the grave" seems to have 2 parts, Abraham's Bosom (where the righteous wait for the resurrection) and another place where the unsaved await judgement in suffering, then after the white throne the waiting place for the unsaved is thrown into the lake of fire or abyss, and that is where the soul would face annihilation, not before then. So Jesus died, and went to Abraham's Bosom and the Right hand of the father, never to Gehenna, that is only for those who are not ressurected into their new bodies
 
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elopez

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Yes, but what you don't understand is Annihilation is not only much more preferable to the eternal Hell concept, but it is also a much less darker and less tragic outcome for unredeemed souls.
No, I completely understand. Annihilationism is more preferable than eternal punishment. I just don't think that makes it more credible of an alternative to eternal punishment.

Not only will the wicked be eternally put out of their misery, but the entire universe which God has made will be as it was and should've been before: cleansed of all impurities and unrighteousness.
All impurities and unrighteousness will be abolished too even given eternal punishment.

Every corner and trace of the universe will be forever rid of evil and we will not only live in peace and harmony with God and our loved ones, but we will also have no memory of the evil that was once on Earth.
Is there any Biblical support for this? Where in the Bible does it say we will have no memory of the evil on earth? I know it says something like God will wipe every tear, which I don't think equates to no memory of evil, rather no mental affect from the idea. It's there, it just doesn't affect us the same way or at all.

No recollection of the evil that once was and it no longer exists within the cosmos. God won't have to worry about sin getting into His kingdom ever again and the condemned souls will be no more.
Neither will God worry about sin entering His kingdom assuming an eternal punishment.

So yes, it may not be realistic, but it is a much better outcome, rather than just live in a universe where our unsaved loved ones just go to Hell to be eternally separated from Almighty God and then having to go to the Lord for comfort or consolation, only to have to deal with that harsh fact.
Who cares if it's a more preferable situation than Hell? If it is unrealistic it's irrelevant. What matters is only realistic.

The thing is God can do anything--He can destroy and annihilate souls forever if He wanted to and He can cleanse this universe of all evil if He wanted to. If God hates sin so much and loves us so much, then He would destroy us if and if we didn't want to be reconciled to Him for whatever reason. The way people talk on the internet.......they make it sound like God is helpless in doing anything for damned souls. But let's not forget something--God is omnipotent. He can do anything--which means there isn't a single thing He can't do, with the exception of acting contrary to His character: good.
God can do anything? Do you think He can be contradicting, as in creating a square circle? If so, the way you define omnipotence is illogical, and if not, then the claim "God can do anything" is false. God can do anything logically possible. God cannot lie. God cannot change His mind. Those are two things off bat that God cannot do, so yes, there are things God cannot do, however, lying or changing one's mind is no display of 'power,' rather it would be the attribute of not lying that seems 'powerful.'

I think part of the problem is that you think God can do literally anything, even the intrinsically impossible. Though, an everlasting soul, by it's very nature and definition, cannot cease to exist. You continue to ignore this simple truth.

Also, Hell is separation from God, which is destruction from the soul's original purpose: to eternally fellowship with God. Likewise, the human soul was made to last forever, so annihilation would be destruction from that original purpose.
What is in the bold seems to be arguing against annihilationism...

If He can allow Hell to be what it is, then by sovereign will He can allow someone back into nonexistence if they so desired. If they don't want to live forever and be reconciled to God but at the same time do not want to be separated from Him more than anything in Hell forever, then why force them to live on in the afterlife? If they didn't want to live on after they died while they were alive on Earth, why would they want to when they died? Annihilation may not be what's in our best interest but neither is Hell, but yet and still God allows people to go there by their own choice.
"Allowing someone back into nonexistence" doesn't make sense under an absolute everlasting soul. You must not think the soul is everlasting, or perhaps that only some souls are, which doesn't seem Biblical. God knows all. Perhaps He knows you will eventually want to live forever and be reconciled to Him. You wouldn't know this, so you question it over and over. Yet God, knowing all, would know this, and so in all actuality there is no question or issue.

One my biggest issues with annihilationism is this: in some cases there is no justice, and so judgement is arbitrary. Take for example the tragedy I mentioned earlier. We can only assume he didn't want to live on after he died, yet committed an atrocious sin. If he wants to cease to exist and is so, there is no justice or anything accountable for the sin. In that case, sin goes unpunished. That is basically what annihilationism promotes. Unpunished sin, that is, following your own logic.

Also, there is Biblical evidence for an eternal punishment, one without end.

Matthew 18:8: "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire."

Matthew 25:46: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Thessalonians 1:9: "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."

So why not annihilation?
A) The position seems contrary to Scripture. B) It seems contrary theologically and philosophically speaking. Both A and B have been given reasons for in the above.

Would He rather let us suffer in Hell forever harboring bitter hatred for Him, for their fellow man and for themselves because of the horror they will forever endure?
Oh contraire, does sin go unpunished? God does not want one to suffer in Hell, and the suffering is not His fault. It is not caused by God, and nor is it inflicted by Him.
 
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I know that I said about the everlasting soul being snuffed out of existence would be destroyed from its original purpose: to live forever, however I don't see why God wouldn't allow us back into nonexistence. And yes, what I said beforehand may stand in contradiction with true and mainstream annihilationism, but why not oblivion? I understand this would not be justice in the sense that these souls aren't conscious of their suffering and that our souls were made to last forever and therefore we cannot live as we please without consequences, but if God is really incapable of aiding damned souls who are cut off from Him, and He can't obliterate their souls, then this therefore contradicts His omnipotence. Remember, before the Earth even existed, we were nowhere in sight and we had no sense of awareness or consciousness. Only God, Heaven and His angelic messengers were the only beings in existence. I don't expect the Lord to be capable of doing what's literally impossible or nonsensical -- I'm only saying since all of our souls are one of millions upon millions of creations of His, He can destroy them. Anything created can be destroyed, so there's no excuse.

Also, I fear being at the mercy of such an all-powerful Being as He because I don't want to reside in a kind of reality where there's a God who is literally powerless in reversing the very worst thing that can happen to us: eternal separation from Him. It makes me think that we are in a reality where such a very hopeless situation can occur and there is nothing that can be done about that. That is one of the main reasons why I wish God had left me alone before my birth. I really admire the fact that He's a loving Being, but I doubt He understands how I feel about this or doesn't care. If we didn't exist beforehand and this had absolutely no effect on God's eternal nature or His power why would it affect His majestic nature after our creation? And yes, some websites actually suggest that God may in fact need us to some extent.

And I want you to please answer me this: if God chose to create us to last forever and had this well thought-out, premeditated and intricate plan in mind way before time even came into conception knowing full well that so many would choose to rebel against Him and unintentionally plummet themselves into eternal damnation then why didn't He just leave us there? I understand some of the people who lived in the past, live in the present and will live in the future will accept Him as Lord and Savior, but why not leave some out?

And please explain this to me: what kind of place is Hell? How did it come into being? And why would God allow it to exist? Also, who rules Hell? Why are there flames in Hell? What or who causes the suffering of the damned souls? Does the Devil have any power in Hell? Is Hell self-existing? And if so, then Hell must have came into being beyond God's control and this would also therefore contradict His omnipotence.

Perhaps that's what I fear the most: being in a place where there is absolutely 0% of God's presence or influences. At first, I would spend hour after hour for days and days on end worrying about this and surfing through the Internet for websites discussing more about the subject. I didn't want to see the truth for what it was because it was so horrific. If anything is beyond God's control, I want nothing to do with it, much less the universe. Is He not horrified by this as much as we are? Perhaps He does not care. It's the reason why I feel so unfortunate and helpless. I feel as if I'm an unfortunate soul destined by God to live in such a universe forever. A universe where people out of their own stubborness will choose to separate themselves from God, live an eternity in Hell and then have family members who do choose to be with Him not mourn or shed even the smallest tear for them because God has cleared all and any memory they had of them while they were alive on Earth. I see now that He just won't let me go back. Notice that I said "won't" rather than "can't". Therefore I can only conclude that He does not want to let me back into nonexistence to escape this horrid universe. If so, what does God want from me? I therefore honestly fail to see or understand how you all can live with something like that....because I can't.......
 
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elopez

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And yes, what I said beforehand may stand in contradiction with true and mainstream annihilationism, but why not oblivion?
I've already answered this.

I understand this would not be justice in the sense that these souls aren't conscious of their suffering and that our souls were made to last forever and therefore we cannot live as we please without consequences
It would not be justice in any sense. If one who sins is not punished here on earth and is just obliterated in the after life, he is not held accountable for his sins.

but if God is really incapable of aiding damned souls who are cut off from Him, and He can't obliterate their souls, then this therefore contradicts His omnipotence.
It doesn't. Omnipotence is the ability to do anything logically possible. Obliterating souls is an impossibility. So, that God cannot do this doesn't mean He lacks omnipotence. It is as saying God cannot lie.

I don't expect the Lord to be capable of doing what's literally impossible or nonsensical
Yes you do. You expect an everlasting soul, which by definition cannot cease to exist, to in fact cease. What about that is not literally impossible?

Now, I asked earlier, to which you seem to didn't answer, if some souls are everlasting while others are not? This does not make sense according to annihilationism as you have defined it so far.

I'm only saying since all of our souls are one of millions upon millions of creations of His, He can destroy them. Anything created can be destroyed, so there's no excuse.
The statement in bold has been shown to simply not be true. The soul is created. Yet, it does not cease to exist. By the very nature of the soul it does not cease to exist.

It makes me think that we are in a reality where such a very hopeless situation can occur and there is nothing that can be done about that. That is one of the main reasons why I wish God had left me alone before my birth. I really admire the fact that He's a loving Being, but I doubt He understands how I feel about this or doesn't care.
The reality is this: God chooses who to save. That in and of itself hardly means there is nothing that could be done, or that He doesn't care. Something is done because He cares. God intervenes and saves people. And you may feel that way now. Just give yourself time and trust God.

If we didn't exist beforehand and this had absolutely no effect on God's eternal nature or His power why would it affect His majestic nature after our creation? And yes, some websites actually suggest that God may in fact need us to some extent.
It does not affect God's nature.

And I want you to please answer me this: if God chose to create us to last forever and had this well thought-out, premeditated and intricate plan in mind way before time even came into conception knowing full well that so many would choose to rebel against Him and unintentionally plummet themselves into eternal damnation then why didn't He just leave us there?
I can't make sense of this. Leave us where?

And please explain this to me: what kind of place is Hell?
Punishment without end.

How did it come into being?
I personally believe after Satan and his angels rebelled and were cast to earth.

And why would God allow it to exist?
Now for justice. There are some crimes and sins I simply do not see "too cruel" granting punishment without end to.

Also, who rules Hell?
I don't know. Satan resides in Hell. I don't know if that means he rules it or not.

Why are there flames in Hell?
I don't think there are. I think the flames mentioned in Scripture are symbolic.

What or who causes the suffering of the damned souls?
Oneself. It is sot of like being in jail or prison. One would constantly think about their crime, and I am assuming they would regret it.

Does the Devil have any power in Hell?
I don't know.

Is Hell self-existing?
It is not eternal, so no.

And if so, then Hell must have came into being beyond God's control and this would also therefore contradict His omnipotence.
Answered above.

Is He not horrified by this as much as we are? Perhaps He does not care.
Read 2 Peter 3:9. "Not wanting any to perish."
 
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SilenceInMotion

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Saint Faustina gave a very explicit account of Hell which, because of her declaration of sainthood, Catholics cannot really deny.

I struggled for a while over the concept of eternal damnation being righteous, but then I realized it's not so much about righteousness as it is metaphysics.
For eternal salvation to exist, eternal punishment has to exist. There has to be a symmetry. If you look at Mosaic Law, you see that it brims with eye for eye. This is symmetry at work, you see. Even good and evil are a symmetry- one cannot exist without the concept or possibility of the other.
And so, Hell is the default location of damned souls.
 
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