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Featured Do you really believe in hell?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Martin Hodges, Mar 28, 2019.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    From J. Mitchell's article.
    "Yet whoever may at some point say, 'Inept moron (Stupid scoundrel; Despicable fool; You perverse idiot)!' will be held within (and thus: accountable to) [placement] into the [part of] the Valley of Hinnom which pertains to the fire (i.e., the incinerator for refuse in the dump outside of Jerusalem)."
    Since Mitchell has this wrong one must wonder what else is he wrong about. See below there is no archaeological or historical evidence that the valley of Gehinnom was ever used for a trash dump or a place where bodies were burned. There is a valley which near Jerusalem which was used as a trash dump but it was not Gehinnom.
    The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
    Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
    Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
    Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
    “Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
    (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
    G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
    “Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
    The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism
     
  2. danbuter

    danbuter Member Supporter

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    I don't think it's a lake of fire. I think Hell will be dead people who feel God all around them, but are so ashamed/angry/upset, that they deny his love, and make themselves miserable.
     
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I cannot conceive of a Creator Who knows the end from the beginning, One whose very essence is Love, Who has infinite wisdom, and infinite power, giving to any being life, life which is never to end, but to continue in suffering to all eternity. The Bible does not teach it anywhere in the original languages.

    God’s punishments are remedial and take place within the span of the ages. Punishment will last no longer than is necessary to bring man to hate his sin and be reconciled to his Saviour.

    God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta
     
  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "As long as there is any hate in us we are not ready for heaven, not as long as we're shutting the golden doors on anyone else...the heavenly banquet cannot begin until we are all there, and I can greet with love...everybody who has caused me pain, and call out a welcome to them all. The heavenly banquet cannot begin until all those whom I have hurt are ready to welcome me, in all my flawed and contradictory humanness... Belief in hell is lack of faith because it attributes more power to Satan than to God...but it is God who has the last word! God is not going to abandon creation, nor the people up for trial in criminal court, nor the Shiites, nor the communists, or the warmongers, nor the greedy and corrupt people in high places, nor the dope pushers, nor you, nor me. Bitter tears of repentance may be shed before we can join the celebration, but it won't be complete until we are all there." -Madeleine L'Engle-

    "I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things shall be subject to Him and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor 15:24-28).

    "For me, this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside of the love of God at the end of time, it means that one man has defeated the love of God—and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of our God. If God was no more than a King or judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if His enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only king and Judge, God is Father—He is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family."

    "The only triumph a father can know is to have all of his family back home again." –Dr. William Barclay-

    "Thou, O Father, wilt not be angry with thy child because he thought—and tried to bid others to think just and noble things of thee; though, O Savior, wilt not frown at him because he trusted in the infinitude of thy compassion; and thou, O Holy Spirit, whose image is the soft stealing of the dew and the golden hovering of the dove, wilt know that if he erred it was because he fixed his eyes, not on the glaring and baleful meteors of anathematizing orthodoxy, but on the star of Bethlehem and the clouds that began to shine above the coming of the Lord; and that—if perchance he erred—the light which led astray was light from Heaven." –Canon F.W. Farrar-

    "The Spirit of the Lord speaks within my soul and says, “Within the breast of every man is the divine image of God (living God), in whose image and likeness he was made, that sin is a perversion and sickness an imposter, and that the grace and power of God through the Holy Ghost delivers man from all bondage and darkness, and man in all his nature rises into union and communion with God and becomes one with Him the truest sense." –John G. Lake-
     
  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Divine Judgment

    "All of God’s judgments are corrective measures that counteract, and also cooperate for the eventual good and reconciliation of all through Jesus Christ the Saviour of the world.

    God never judges in vengeance for vengeance sake, but only for ultimate rehabilitation. He has His perfect timing to bring forth ultimate good for all. Thus many divine judgments are postponed until iniquity comes to the full (Gen. 15:16).

    All must experience human failure and total depravity to the full in order to appreciate salvation when God eventually sets all things right throughout the whole universe (Isa. 9:26; and Phil. 2:10,11)-Gloria Van Assen-

    God's Purpose Prevails
     
  6. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Do you really believe your own words? You as a seminary grad should know better than to substitute an argument of hyperbole which applies to one word {kosmos) and arbitrarily apply it as representative of another word (aionios). That is a logical fallacy known as an over generalization, not to mention poor exegesis. And while you're at it, since you claim to "refute" Morgan's conclusion, perhaps you ought to refute Dr. Marvin Vincent's conclusions as well. I'm sure you have heard of him, haven't you?
    --------
    Αιων, transliterated aeon, is a period of time of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (περι ουρανου, i.9, 15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of each one's life is called the aeon of each one." Hence, it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (αιων) is said to leave him or consume away (Il. v. 685; Od. v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millennium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not a "stationary and mechanical value" (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

    It is sometimes translated world; world representing a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt. xii.32; xiii.40, 49; L. i.70; 1 Cor. i.20; ii.6; Eph. i.21. Similarly οι αιωνες the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor. ii.7; x.11; Heb. i.2; ix.26; xi.3.

    The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting. . . . The adjective αιωνιος in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting. (pp. 58-59, vol. IV, Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament).
    --------
    I find it odd and quite curious that I've given 3 replies to 3 passages of Scripture that you've cited which you claim to support your view and yet you have failed to submit counter-replies in order to contradict my interpretations of these scriptures. Why is that Der Alter? If my arguments are "spurious," why do you neglect to address my scriptural replies? I will simply do the same with these 2 scriptures you have provided and refute them as well.
    Berean Literal Bible
    And the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were great voices in heaven, saying: "The kingdom of the world has become that of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign to the ages of the ages." Rev 11:15
    Berean Literal Bible
    And there will be no night there, and they have no need of the light of a lamp and of the light of the sun, because the Lord God will enlighten upon them, and they will reign to the ages of the ages. Rev 22:5

    Context is key - you should know that as a former seminarian and yet you grossly ignore it. The 7th trumpet in Rev 11:15 refers to the 2nd Coming. Question: Why does the "kingdom of the world" then become "that of our Lord and of His Christ"? Answer: Because Jesus' 2nd Coming ushers in His Millennial kingdom which is His rule and reign upon this earth. Therefore, is a millennium an infinite time of "for ever and ever" or a long, but finite period of time of "ages to the ages" - in this case 1,000 years? Thus "for ever and ever" is obviously an incorrect translation of aionas ton aionon.
    Same thing with Rev 22:5. Your verse states "they will reign for ever and ever." Do the saints reign for ever and ever?" Of course not. Jesus reigns until he puts all enemies under his feet (1 Cor 15:25). If Jesus does not reign forever. Neither do the saints.

    BTW Der Alter, you do the very same thing accusing me of not reading what you wrote. Or, perhaps you read - but forget what you read. Either way, may I remind you that I already responded to these verses. I suggest you refer back to my post #114 which I have copied and pasted for your reading convenience:
    --------
    Let's also take the first example in the next list of passages you cited where Rom 1:20 uses aidios which means eternal - with which I agree. But you then extend this claim and conflate it with Rom 16:26 asserting that since aidios means forever in Rom 1:20, aionios in Rom 16:26 must also mean eternal. How can that be as did you not notice Rom 16:25? This verse which immediately precedes v.25 states that "the mystery which has been kept secret for ages past...." This verse utilizes the word aioniois. In keeping with your argument, aioniois must also mean eternal but that is impossible as the passage states that the mystery in v.25 has now been manifested/revealed in v.26. Therefore, the mystery cannot have been an eternal/everlasting secret since it is now no longer a secret. Young's Literal Translation translates v.25 correctly.
    "And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,"
    -------
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    What makes a Bible "literal?" It seems to me that a "literal Bible" is merely a translation which appears to support a particular person's assumptions/presupposition at any given time.
    I have compared verses in a few "literal translations" and no two of them agree across the board.

    Context is key - you should know that as a former seminarian and yet you grossly ignore it. The 7th trumpet in Rev 11:15 refers to the 2nd Coming. Question: Why does the "kingdom of the world" then become "that of our Lord and of His Christ"? Answer: Because Jesus' 2nd Coming ushers in His Millennial kingdom which is His rule and reign upon this earth. Therefore, is a millennium an infinite time of "for ever and ever" or a long, but finite period of time of "ages to the ages" - in this case 1,000 years? Thus "for ever and ever" is obviously an incorrect translation of
    aionas ton aionon.
    Same thing with Rev 22:5. Your verse states "they will reign for ever and ever." Do the saints reign for ever and ever?" Of course not. Jesus reigns until he puts all enemies under his feet (1 Cor 15:25). If Jesus does not reign forever. Neither do the saints.

    Well once again you have given your opinion with zero support.
    BTW Der Alter, you do the very same thing accusing me of not reading what you wrote. Or, perhaps you read - but forget what you read. Either way, may I remind you that I already responded to these verses. I suggest you refer back to my post #114 which I have copied and pasted for your reading convenience:
    ]Let's also take the first example in the next list of passages you cited where Rom 1:20 uses aidios which means eternal - with which I agree. But you then extend this claim and conflate it with Rom 16:26 asserting that since aidios means forever in Rom 1:20, aionios in Rom 16:26 must also mean eternal. How can that be as did you not notice Rom 16:25? This verse which immediately precedes v.25 states that "the mystery which has been kept secret for ages past...." This verse utilizes the word aioniois. In keeping with your argument, aioniois must also mean eternal but that is impossible as the passage states that the mystery in v.25 has now been manifested/revealed in v.26. Therefore, the mystery cannot have been an eternal/everlasting secret since it is now no longer a secret. Young's Literal Translation translates v.25 correctly.

    "And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,"
    -------<

    I suggest you go back and actually read my post. I conflated nothing. That is just an automatonic, ill thought out, desperate response.

    Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    Romans 16:25-26
    (25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    What does the word "aidios" refer to in vs. 1:20? A: God's power and Godhead [Godhood]
    What does the word "aionios" refer to in vs. 16:26? A: God Himself.
    Please explain to me how God Himself is only age/ages in vs. 16:26 but His "power and Godhead/hood" in vs. 1:20 are eternal.
    You can say Nuh Uh! all you want but "aionios" is indisputably defined in 16:26, However "aionios" is not defined in vs. 25. It simply refers to something which is not eternal. So how do we resolve this? υπερβολην

    I think this can correctly be called "defining."
    The undisputed word "aidios" clearly defines the disputed word "aionios," as I have shown in all 22 verses. Here aionios is defined by other adjectives or adjectival phrases. Both "aidios" and "aionios' are a reference to time and they both refer to the same thing.

    Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
    You try to dispute this verse but either ignore or are unaware that "God" is included in the "they shall reign for ever and ever." So you are wrong unless you can show me where the reign of God ends?
     
  8. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Just because some Bibles use the words eternity and eternal as you are so fond of citing; just goes to show not all do, do they?

    Once again, you failed to give your scriptural counter-reply. Any particular reason why??

    Once again Der Alter, you have failed to address v.25 where the exact same word - aionios - refers to a "secret" once hidden but now made manifest. Explain to me just how can an aionios/eternal secret ever be revealed? How can aionios not mean eternal in one verse but in the very next verse mean eternal as you claim??
    God is eternal (aidios) and outside of time/space but he makes himself manifest to humanity and desires to work out his plan for humanity through ages of time (aion). You thus confuse the attributes of God with His process - two different things. Why don't we allow Jesus himself to define what he meant by "eternal" life? In John 17:3 we find the only verse where Jesus describes what it means to have aionios life. "Now this is aionios life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." This life has nothing to do with eternity, but is a quality of relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ who brings us into a present knowledge and experience with God our Father; otherwise known as the abundant life - not eternal life. We have aionios life as long as we maintain an abiding relationship with God who works out his plan according to ages of time.

    The "they" is composed of the Father, Jesus and the saints. Jesus and the saints don't reign forever and ever - only the Father - so it is impossible to translate this verse as forever and ever as everlasting does not include all three. That being the case, unto "the ages of the ages" is appropriate because it signifies both a finite period of time related to the reign of Jesus and the saints and also a long but indeterminate period of time related to the reign of the Father. Moreover, where is the kai in "forever and ever?" The word ton is the genitive plural article, and should be translated "of the." The word aionon is the genitive plural of the noun aion, and the genitive plural in this syntax should be translated "eons," or "ages;" hence ton aionon, "of the eons/ages." Also eis is used in this verse and as eis involves a movement or development toward a goal, this clause cannot mean endlessness.
    Gloss:
    to, toward, into; for. Spatially: movement toward or into an area (extending to a goal); logically: a marker of purpose or result; of time: extending to or up to a certain time.
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I most certainly did address vs. 25! From my previous post.
    "You can say Nuh Uh! all you want but "aionios" is indisputably defined in 16:26, However "aionios" is not defined in vs. 25. It simply refers to something which is not eternal. So how do we resolve this? υπερβολην"[From which we get the word "hyperbole.]
    You have conceded that God is eternal. God cannot be "eternal" in one verse and only ages in another verse. I will address the rest of this later.
     
  10. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    You addressed nothing. Aionios is used in 2 verses - back to back - yet you insist it means eternally in one, yet not in the other. Huperbolen is no where in the context as you resort to pulling out that literary device from thin air. Poor exegesis. Did you not read my explanation? God is eternal but his plan and relationship with humankind is accomplished unto the ages. Big difference which you have failed to acknowledge. I suggest you pay more attention to and heed the words of Morgan and Vincent but my guess is you consider yourself more erudite than they.
     
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  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <OT>You addressed nothing. Aionios is used in 2 verses - back to back - yet you insist it means eternally in one, yet not in the other. Huperbolen is no where in the context as you resort to pulling out that literary device from thin air. Poor exegesis. Did you not read my explanation? God is eternal but his plan and relationship with humankind is accomplished unto the ages. Big difference which you have failed to acknowledge. I suggest you pay more attention to and heed the words of Morgan and Vincent but my guess is you consider yourself more erudite than they.<OT>
    I almost forgot about this thread. Repeating the same argument over and over and over does not make it correct.
    Yes "aionios" is used in 2 verses back to back but in Rom 16:25 it is not defined by adjectives/adjectival statements, in vs 25, or anywhere else in the entire NT.
    .....On the other hand, in Rom 16:26 "aionios" has been defined by Paul in Rom 1:20. As I have pointed out, I think more than once. In Rom 1:20 Paul writes "God's invisible qualities—his eternal/ [ἀΐ́διος] power and divine nature." In Rom 16:26 Paul writes "the everlasting God/"[του αιωνιου θεου].

    .....I reviewed all the versions and commentaries I have, they all read eternal/everlasting God; ASV, NIrV, NIV, KJV, ISV, ESV and NET, Commentaries; Robertson, Gill, and Jamieson, Faussett, Brown.
    .....I don't know what other versions or commentaries say. Here is why all the sources I referenced are correct.
    θεός/theos is a noun. "aioniou" is an adjective, genitive, singular, masculine. Adjectives modify nouns not the other way around. If we say "God of the age." we have changed an adjective into a noun. We cannot say "God of the ages" because "aioniou" is singular.

    Yes, the complete phrase, "tou aioniou Theou," is in the genitive case. so it cannot be "the age of God" or "God of the age." There must be a direct object of the phrase. The direct object is "commandment." "The commandment of the aioniou God."
    .....If you think Morgan and Vincent should be accepted over the scholars I named you will have to show cause.
     
  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    B*U*M*P
     
  13. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Aidios is defined by Paul in Rom 1:20; not aioniou. You err in conflating these two words as having the the same meaning. Let's allow Jesus himself; not us nor any scholar to define the word for us shall we? Reread the story of the rich young ruler who in Matt 19 asks Jesus how he may have eternal life. The word for "eternal" in this verse is aionion. Notice how Jesus references zoen aionion in v. 23 as the "kingdom of heaven" and in v. 24 as the "kingdom of God." According to Jesus' own words, eternal life/zoen aionion is the kingdom of heaven/kingdom of God as he uses these terms interchangeably. Now ask yourself, how would a 1st century Jew awaiting the Messiah have understood this? You and I both know that such a Jew would have been waiting for the Messiah to usher in the Messianic age where the Messiah rules over Israel and over the whole world. They were awaiting a Messiah to establish his kingdom age and give Israel victory over her enemies. Thus the rich young ruler was not asking about eternal life in heaven but life during the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. Zoen aionion therefore means life pertaining to the kingdom age - not life for eternity. I prefer to believe Jesus' own definition.

    Same thing with eternal punishment several chapters later in Matt 25:46. A great many, including scholars claim that since aionion life/eternal life is the reward for believers, then by the same token aionion punishment/eternal punishment must of course be the fate of unbelievers. A cursory examination of the context of this verse demonstrates that such is not the case as this verse references the sheep/goat judgment where the sheep enter into the Jesus's kingdom for a millennia and likewise the goats depart unto punishment for a millennia. This is not the GWT judgment which takes place after the Millennial period. Thus aionion cannot mean forever but instead refers to punishment during the Millennium.

    Getting back to Rom 16:26, the direct object of tou aioniou Theou is the commandment. But have you noticed what God's commandment in this verse states? God commands obedience of faith to all the gentiles/nations made known. God commands all to obedience of faith; not some. What God commands, he therefore accomplishes.
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I certainly appreciate your input but before we try to prove the meaning of the word of aioniou in Rom 1:20 and 16:26 by citing proof texts from other verses, let us first address everything I said. And we don't have to go any further than this. I have posted this more than once but you have not specifically addressed the points I made re: these two verses. Once again,
    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his [DO] eternal [aidios] [adj] power [Nn]and Godhead[Nn]; so that they are without excuse
    Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment [DO] of the everlasting [aioniou] [adj] God [Nn], made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    There is no question that the adjective aidoios vs. 20 describes the power and Godhood of God as eternal.
    How then can God Himself be only an indeterminate "age" in vs. 26?
    In vs. 26 Paul is clearly using "aionios" synonymous with "aiodios" vs. 20.

    Vs. 20, "his "X" power and Godhead;"
    Vs. 26,"The "X" God."
    How can those two adjectives, in these two verses, in the same writing, by the same author, referring to the same thing, have two disparate meanings? They cannot!
    The genitive case of tou ainiou Theou will not permit a translation of "the god of the age" since theou is not in the accusative case.
    "aioniou" cannot be translated as "age" because"aioniou" is an adjective and "age" is a noun! Also "aioniou" cannot be translated "age during" because "during" is a participle. There is no participle in the phrase "tou ainiou Theou"


    Not all Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed this. What 1st century Jews did or did not believe about Jesus is irrelevant. But from their own writings a significant number believed in a place of eternal/everlasting/unending punishment which they called both Ge-Hinnom and Sheol.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
    =================
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.


    What is your point? How does that relate to what I have been discussing?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  15. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    I used to, but not anymore. Humans burning and being tortured forever in hell is a Greek/pagan idea. Based on the Scriptures, I definitely believe that the wicked are cast alive into fire, but they eventually burn up.
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Did you read my [post #154] directly above your post? As I have shown from Jewish historical writings, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment and the Jews called it both Ge-hinnom and sheol. The teachings of Jesus did not disprove these beliefs but supported them.
    I do not know of any credible, verifiable, historical evidence which shows that Greek pagan ideas were accepted into the church.
     
  17. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    Yes, I read it. I’m well aware of the different arguments regarding this, I was just responding to the OP.
     
  18. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    I do believe that former Skeptic Howard Storm is telling us the truth about what he experienced during the first part of his brush with death........ and I believe that what he recounts assists us to understand many of the statements of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus that can confuse us if they are not explained to us.


    Mat 5:29

    And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast itfrom thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
    Mat 5:30

    And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


    Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience
     
  19. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    My point is since Jesus defined "eternal" by defining it's "length" as referring to the Millennial age and not eternity, then it would be prudent for us to take his Word at face value instead of substituting our own definitions. The principle of first mention requires that you interpret your cited verses by Paul in Romans in light of Jesus' own definition - not the other way around. Since Jesus in response to the rich young ruler interpreted aionion life to mean life related to the Kingdom Age, we do not have the luxury to interpret otherwise do we? And I already previously cited that "olam" in Hebrew does not refer to "forever" so although there is a sheol/lake of fire - it does not mean that the punishment which takes place there is eternal.

    Also, the question that begs to be asked is why did Paul use the word aioniou instead of aidios if he wanted to clearly convey the sense of God's eternality? Paul obviously understood the distinction between these two words, yet he chose aioniou over aidios. Hence my contention that you conflate these two words.

    Furthermore, the word aidios occurs only twice in the NT, once in Romans and in Jude 1:6. How can chains be "eternal" in this verse "until" the day of judgement? "And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—" (ESV)
    In the Liddell & Scott 1883 ed. lexicon, pg.34, aidios is related to haides which means "unseen." If we apply this meaning to Jude 1:6, the verse states "kept in unseen chains in gloomy darkness ...." which makes perfect sense as the chains are not being described as eternal in nature but are imperceptible and not capable of being perceived in the gloomy darkness.
    When we apply this same meaning to Rom 1:20 and substitute unseen for eternal, the verse states "For his invisible attributes, namely, his unseen power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
    Note how invisible and unseen correspond with one another. In other words, God's invisible attributes with reference to his unseen power/nature are made clearly visible in God's creation, so that men are without excuse. Thus aidios does not demand to be translated as "eternal" as you assert as "unseen" appears to better fit the context of Rom 1:20. Your claim that eternal/aidios in Rom 1:20 must be synonymous with the everlasting/aioniou God in Rom 16:26 is therefore questionable in my opinion.
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Unlike some folks I do not look up proof texts, I have reviewed every occurrence of aionios/aion in the NT and olam and ad in the OT.
    Okay let us review how Jesus defined aionios in an even earlier passage.

    John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον accusative, singular feminine] life.

    John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In these verses aionion is singular, not in the genitive case so it cannot be translated "of the ages[pl]." Also in both verses aionion is paired with "shall not perish." "Shall not perish" cannot be equated with millennial or age.
    As for olam and ad,

    Ezekiel 27:36
    (36) The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]
    In this vs. “olam” is contrasted with “never shall be”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not the opposite of “never shall be,” “always shall be"/"eternal” is.
    Invalid argument. Trying to dictate which word(s) a Bible author should/should not have used in any given situation. As you argue since Paul knew the meaning of both aidios and aionios why would he call God the millenial God [Rom 16:26] when he had already called the power and Godhood of God eternal. [Rom 1:20] God cannot be limited to a millennium when He is eternal.

    The word aidios is an adjective. In Jude 1:6 it modifies one word "chains." "the aidios chains." Adios does not modify τηρός.


    Liddell & Scott is classical Greek not koine. Here is the definition from the koine lexicon BDAG
    ἀΐδιος, ον (ἀεί ‘always’; Hom. Hymns, Hes. et al.; ins; PSI 1422, 16; Wsd 7:26; 4 Macc 10:15; a favorite w. Philo: Jos., Ant. 4, 178; 17, 152; Just., A II, 11, 5; Tat. 14, 2; Ath.; Mel., P. 2f, 20) eternal ἡ ἀ. αὐτοῦ (of God) δύναμις Ro 1:20 (Zoroaster in Philo Bybl.: 790 Fgm. 4, 52 Jac. [Eus., PE 1, 10, 52]; 58th letter of Apollonius of Tyana [Philostrat. I 360, 29 K.]; SibOr 5, 66 θεὸς ἀ.). ζωή (Philo, Fug. 97; Tat.14, 2) IEph 19:3; δεσμοῖς ἀ. Jd 6 (PGM 4, 1466 πυλωρὲ κλείθρων ἀϊδίων).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW.
    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 24). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
    Here is a link to an earlier edition of BDAG.
    A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker
    ETA: The definition of aidios from Liddell-Scott

    ἀΐδιος
    [ᾱῐδ], ον, also η, ον, Orph. H. 10.21, al., (ἀεί): —
    everlasting, eternal, h.Hom. 29.3, Hes. Sc. 310; freq. in Prose, χρόνος Antipho 1.21; ἔχθρα Th. 4.20; οἴκησις, of a tomb, X. Ages. 11.16; ἡ ἀ. οὐσία eternity, Pl. Ti. 37e; ἀ. στρατηγία, ἀρχή, βασιλεία, perpetual.., Arist. Pol. 1285a7, 1317b41, 1301b27; ἀ. βασιλεῖς, γέροντες, ib. 1284b33, 1306a17; τὰ ἀ., opp. τὰ γενητά and φθαρτά, Id. Metaph. 1069a32, EN 1139b23, al.; ἐς ἀΐδιον for ever, Th. 4.63; ad infinitum, Arist. PA 640a6; ἐξ ἀϊδίου Plot. 2.1.3: Comp. -ώτερος Arist. Cael. 284a17: — ἀ. is dist. fr. αἰώνιος as everlasting from timeless, Olymp. in Mete. 146.16; but dist. fr. ἀείζωος as eternal (without beginning or end) from everliving, Corp.Herm. 8.2. Adv. -ίως Sm. Mi. 7.18, Iamb. Comm.Math. 1, Hierocl. in CA 1p.419M.

    Incorrect! If Paul had intended to say invisible/unseen he almost certainly would have have written μη βλεπομενα as he did in 2 Cor 4:18.

    2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, [μη βλεπομενα] since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.[αιωνια]
    In this verse Paul contrasts aionia with temporary. Age/millenia [a long time] is not opposite of temporary, eternal is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2019
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