Do you love people God hates?

[Crazy Liz]

I've seen a number of postings by Calvinists recently seeming to rely on the idea that God does not love all people.

I'm not a Calvinist, so I'd like to understand the ramifications of this belief system. If God does not love all people, are Christians supposed to love all people, or only the people God loves?


Why or why not?

 

[heymikey80]

Hm? Do you have citations or reference links that would distinguish Calvinism? I'd probably request a comparison with Scripture's assertions.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Mt 5:43-48​

Possibly you're referring to:

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Rom 9:11-13
​

There definitely seems to be some difference in the love God has for those He shows mercy to, in comparison with those He doesn't, wouldn't Scripture say? But the answer of Matthew is that God loves all people and shows some unmerited favor to all people, though not to the salvation of all people.

 

[colinlindsay]

I'd be FAR more worried if I hated people that God loved.
I'm also worried if I hate a man's doctrine and God in fact regards his belief as of secondary importance.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Thanks for your replies. I'd like to see more.

In another thread a Calvinist was posting that some people are the "seed of the serpent" and God does not love them. I'm not sure whether this is what all Calvinists believe, or just some. I thought this forum would be a good place to ask.

 

[heymikey80]

Thanks for your replies. I'd like to see more.

In another thread a Calvinist was posting that some people are the "seed of the serpent" and God does not love them. I'm not sure whether this is what all Calvinists believe, or just some. I thought this forum would be a good place to ask.

I might suggest you take a very close look at that poster's affiliation. To my knowledge no Calvinist has made this statement, but again, making allegations without citations prevents me from answering the charge directly.

In the general case, Calvinism normally goes as far as to say God does not love everyone enough to save them -- and also that God's punishment includes His wrath and vengeance for the sinfulness of those who do not heed Him. But it's clear that a complete lack of God's love for someone would extinguish him in an instant, according to Calvinism. And the fact that they're still around is testimony to God's patience, mercy, and yes agapae love for them.

This is in fact one fallout result of Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". 'The observation from the words that I would now insist upon is this. "There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God."'

I hope it helps clarify things in some small way.

 

[Crazy Liz]

God doesnt Love all people, for He hates the seed of the serpent..ps 5:

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.



There is a human affinity that is approved by God towards all men, regardless of race, sex, religon, this kind of love is ok and necessary for the peace of society..rom 12:


17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

But there is a line that can be crossed, and thats when a person, regardless of who , becomes a active enemy of Gods, not only by nature, but by promoting a false gospel, perverting Gods word..for then you are Gods enemie in a special kind of way..

These type people we are enjoined not to love, and for christ sake , count them our enemies because they are Gods enemies.. and God hates them too.

Then what did Christ mean when he said, "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Paul practised this hate towards some in scripture..acts 13:

9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

If this is hate, how could Paul have been filled with the Holy Spirit while disobeying the comand of Christ?

Now here david ps 139:


20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

The precatory psalms remain a part of our scriptures, as the followers of God said these things at one time, but they are no longer read in the church's liturgy, in consideration of the commands of Christ.

paul gal 1:


8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

If you notice, all these characters have one thing in common, the pervert the truth of God, they rake His name in vain, but they are ones who say they are for God..

So yes, for those of us who are truly born again, its not right , in fact sinful to Love or help in any way, those who manifest their hate towards God by corrupting His truth..

And what of Jesus telling us to love our enemies?

I see you quote many scriptures, but never the words of Jesus.

2 chron 19:

2And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD

God executed wrath upon His covenant people of old for this very thing, Loving them that hate the Lord..Has God changed ? No, this is Gods Holiness and Honor being attacked and He has not changed regarding these things..

I don't know. Has God changed since Jesus told us not to love our neighbors and hate our enemies, but to love our enemies?

 

[Crazy Liz]

Do you see why I'm confused about what Calvinists believe about hating people?

 

[beloved57]

Then what did Christ mean when he said, "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

But it never says that we are to Love Gods enemies does it ? but we do have this?

2And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.

ps 139:

19Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

God hates them too ps 5:

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

 

[Crazy Liz]

How do we know who God's enemies are?

 

[heymikey80]

Do you see why I'm confused about what Calvinists believe about hating people?

I'm not really seeing why you're confused.

beloved57 is self-declaredly not a Calvinist. He's generally considered to be hypercalvinistic. His faith icon shows this.

By the same token it would be as if I were confused why "you non-Calvinists" don't baptize -- simply because there are certain hyperdispensational non-Calvinists who don't baptize.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Is it true you're not a Calvinist, beloved57?

And isn't a hypercalvinist a subset of Calvinist?

 

[Epiphoskei]

Subset wouldn't be exactly the right word. It's not a single position, it's a term used for a large number of beliefs that aren't actually what historically Reformed churches and Reformed Theology teach, though for one reason or another they get lumped together with it.

 

[colinlindsay]

It was interesting the use of the OT by beloved57.

Why stop there....?

Let's use all those imprecatory psalms as well.

But then, didn't Jesus say something about "But I say unto you...."

You see just quoting proof-texts usually doesn't finish the argument. It certainly didn't for Jesus.

 

[heymikey80]

A hypercalvinist is someone who goes beyond Calvin and who sometimes holds points Calvin directly opposed.

So no, used technically hypercalvinism is not a subset of Calvinism. To Calvinists hypercalvinism is "a refurbished Stoicism, Manicheism, Libertinism, and Mohammedanism".

 

[beloved57]

It was interesting the use of the OT by beloved57.

Why stop there....?

Let's use all those imprecatory psalms as well.

But then, didn't Jesus say something about "But I say unto you...."

You see just quoting proof-texts usually doesn't finish the argument. It certainly didn't for Jesus.

Jesus teaches against personal vendetta, but not against upholding the Honor of Gods word..there is a big difference in a persnal enemy, and Gods enemy..we as the people Of God are not to love Gods enemies 2 chron 19:

2And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.

david says ps 139:

20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

These are godly traits in the truly regenerated..

paul commanded believers to wish eternal condemnation upon false teachers and preachers of the gospel..

gal 1:

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

paul did not say Love them and seek their good did he ? for they are Gods enemies..

I am confident that paul knew Gods word of old testament better than your misapplication of it..

 

[beloved57]

How do we know who God's enemies are?

They preach a false gospel..phil 3:


18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

gal 1:

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Those who pervert the right ways of the Lord acts 13:

10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord

 

[A New Dawn]

I've seen a number of postings by Calvinists recently seeming to rely on the idea that God does not love all people.

I'm not a Calvinist, so I'd like to understand the ramifications of this belief system. If God does not love all people, are Christians supposed to love all people, or only the people God loves?


Why or why not?

IMO, we are not to hate anyone. We could fall back on the understanding that we don't know who is elect and who is not, or who is elect and has been drawn and who is elect and hasn't been drawn yet, so how could we know to make that choice?

I believe that we are told to love all people, so I don't make draw a line in the sand and pick and choose who to put on each side of the line. I am not perfect, but I do try to love and respect all people equally.

 

[Crazy Liz]

IMO, we are not to hate anyone. We could fall back on the understanding that we don't know who is elect and who is not, or who is elect and has been drawn and who is elect and hasn't been drawn yet, so how could we know to make that choice?

I believe that we are told to love all people, so I don't make draw a line in the sand and pick and choose who to put on each side of the line. I am not perfect, but I do try to love and respect all people equally.

Thank you, Dawn. I'm trying to explore the ramifications of this, because the only way I can see this working seems to make God come out as a cruel manipulator.

Do you think some of your loved ones might not be elect?

If they are not elect, does God hate them?

 

[A New Dawn]

Thank you, Dawn. I'm trying to explore the ramifications of this, because the only way I can see this working seems to make God come out as a cruel manipulator.

Do you think some of your loved ones might not be elect?

If they are not elect, does God hate them?

I don't really think in terms of elect and not-elect, I think in terms of believer and non-believer. And yes, I have many loved ones who are non-believers at this point in time.

I believe that God uses different types of love. I believe that there is a general love for all of His creation because He is the creator, and I believe that there is a greater love for the elect (those he fore-knew, which could also be described as fore-loved.)

 

[beloved57]

I believe that we are told to love all people,

Then obviously you never read this verse before to the people of God 2 chron 19:

2And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.

and God has not changed..